On-Topic 5 Nations Condemn Israel's Settlement" Plan

[Mariatenebre]

yeah the jews had a presence in the land of cannan after they were chased out of egypt by the pharoah after causing all sorts of trouble ( long story short ) ,
they wandered the wilderness for forty years and then descended on the land of cannan like a plague of rats and slaughtered every one they met ( long story short ) ,
apparently they were returning to the land that a " god " had told their great great great grandfather was his ,( a homophobic god at that ).
family history : a bloke named abraham couldn't get his wife pregnant so he porked the maid and got her pregnant , she had a son named ishmael , then abrahams wife became pregnant so he abandonded the maid and his first born son ( great paternal instincts ), had a son from his wife named issac , around this time a " god told him all the land he could see from the hill top was his ( any one seen the deed ), later the god came back and told him to kill his son , which he was quite prepared to do , but changed his mind when he found a ram , the son survived his fathers impulsive behavour and grew up to have two sons ( not sure if they had the same mum or not, the younger son , jacob ripped off his older brother eesaw for the family fortune and bolted , ( two first borns in a row copping a raw deal ) , older brother forgave him and said come home its ok , jacob had two wives , ten sons by one and two by the other , the first son from the second wife gave his brothers the shits so they sold him into slavery and he ended up in egypt ,
later due to some amazing good fortune he became an adviser to the phaoroh saved egypt by advising them to store some grain for the famine that was coming ( genius ), when the famine was at its worst his brothers showed up to buy some grain , ( long story short ) they abandoned the family farm and moved to the big city , freeloaded on the good nature of the egyptians for several generations until they gave the egyptians the shits and were enslaved , later on they had an uprising and terrorised the egyptians and ran off with the crown jewels , ( back to the start ) went back to where they thought they came from and slaughtered the inhabitants that had stayed behind and survived the harsh years , later they were attacked by various surrounding comunities ( generaly allowed because the homophobic god was un happy with them ) , finnaly the romans came and kicked them out with the blessing of the " god " and they were not to return but wander the earth ,
tell me if ive missed any thing ?
so thats why its their land

Before I address the other comments I would first like to say that the Jews were descended from the Canaanites. There was no mythical out of Egypt scenairio or a fictional genocide of the Canaanites. The Jews are the Canaanites. In fact the Jews were originally polytheists before monotheism was enshrined in their religion. In fact Yahweh was one of the 70 sons of the Canaanite God El Elyon and his wife Asherah. Later Yahweh was scyncretized with his father and given Asherah as his wife. However certain Yahwists wanted Yahweh to be the only God worshipped. Now they still believed in the other Gods but they belived that Yahweh should be worshipped first and foremost. They were in essence Monolatrist Polytheists. It was only later when Monotheism fully took hold and was born by the Jews.

In fact I don't think we would have any of these problems now a days if the Israelites were still Canaanites and the Palestinians were Arab Pagans.

 

[TX-Beau]

 

[Rolyo85]

Do Native Americans have a right to by and own land here in the US. They most certainly do. I never said they had a country of their own however they do own their own territories. Which might I add I would be in favor of giving Natives more land.

You don't get it, even though it's been repeated ad nauseum in this topic already. The Native Americans do not have their own state on this continent. They have no self-governed independent territory. They are a PART of the United States. They can own land IN the United States. But they are not allowed any claim of independence FROM the United States. Clear now?

However Jews did have this land in the past before they driven out. The goal was to give the Jews a homeland free of persecution. Plus antisemitism was not merely a Western problem. Antisemetism in the Muslim world was around since Islam's very birth.

Daaaww, let me play a mournful melody on my violin, to go with your sad song. NOBODY is entitled to land their ancestors owned once upon a time. No Biblical fairy tail, and not even historical fact gives you ANY claim to land you haven't carved out of someone else's territory with blood and fire. My country owned MOST of Eastern Europe in the middle ages. We were one of the two great empires in the region at the time (the other being Byzantium). Now we are a submissive poodle-shaped speck the size of Indiana, with very little to show for more than a thousand years of history. Should we demand all the countries north, west and southwest of us to give us their land because we used to own it "back in the day"?

Which is to say, Israel is INVADING other people's land, forcefully taking it from them, and in terms of what that horrible region is like, I guess that's ok. But let's not pretend they are anything other than stone-cold conquerors that kill civilians and bully their way into the region, unfairly backed by the US. Painting a terrorist state as some haven of beautiful democracy, unfairly hated by its neighbors, is just so dishonest that it makes me wanna puke.

 

[broadshoulder]

My entire life, it has seemed to me like Israel has done absolutely whatever it wanted, even ignoring what the U.S. says unless its actions would really provoke us to rethink our relationship. s.

And the US has always backed it to the hilt - thats why it gets away with terrible stuff in Palestine. You haven't done your friend any favours over the years by not criticising it.

 

[rareboy]

And the US has always backed it to the hilt - thats why it gets away with terrible stuff in Palestine. You haven't done your friend any favours over the years by not criticising it.

And of course the region was used as a proxy battle site between the US and the USSR for about 50 years, which meant that once again in history, two superpowers spent all their time trying to piss one another off by setting puppet states against each other.

The most dangerous element in all of this is the Evangelical push behind Israel in order to fulfil the 'End of Days' prophecy. And for them, the assimilation of all the land and people in the region means nothing except the perfection of the book of Revelations.

 

[Benvolio]

If it was OK for the Muslims to conquer the area by military force, why is it wrong for Israel to take it back by military force? Sure it was a long time ago, but it left the Jews with no place to live.

 

[Benvolio]

No. Native Americans do NOT own land AS A PEOPLE. They have NO country of their own, just American territory where they have been FORCEFULLY settled. Repeating a lie won't make it true.

Are you not being hypocritical, being so critical of American treatment of the Native Americans, even as you seek to benefit by it? Are you not doing the same thing, coming here to make a better life by occupying land previously claimed by the NAs? Are you not seeking to benefit from the wrongdoing, even as you condemn it?

 

[xbuzzerx]

If it was OK for the Muslims to conquer the area by military force, why is it wrong for Israel to take it back by military force? Sure it was a long time ago, but it left the Jews with no place to live.

If you could please show where anywhere in this thread anyone other than zionist Israeli supporters have said it's okay to massacre or military a people off their land by force that'd be great.

 

[Rolyo85]

Yeah, I'm not really on board with the "they did it first" argument. It is 2013. We have higher standards for behavior than we did in previous centuries.

 

[Kulindahr]

Which is to say, Israel is INVADING other people's land, forcefully taking it from them, and in terms of what that horrible region is like, I guess that's ok. But let's not pretend they are anything other than stone-cold conquerors that kill civilians and bully their way into the region, unfairly backed by the US. Painting a terrorist state as some haven of beautiful democracy, unfairly hated by its neighbors, is just so dishonest that it makes me wanna puke.

Query: if the non-Jewish Palestinians have somehow become a people since 1948, haven't the Israelis as well? Much, if not most, of Israel's population was born there, which makes them native just as are the others.

How do you call these natives "a terrorist state" when they've never randomly attacked anyone, never set off car bombs, never done any suicide bombing?

 

[Benvolio]

If you could please show where anywhere in this thread anyone other than zionist Israeli supporters have said it's okay to massacre or military a people off their land by force that'd be great.

No one here has said that. But it seems implicit in the pro-Palestinian position: forget that the Jews once owned it and were driven out, the real wrong was by the Jews in taking it back.
The "changed standards" argument would be more persuasive if the Jews had found a safe homeland in the meantime. It it not persuasive to say "tough luck, it is wrong for you to take back your sacred homeland because "we" have higher standards". The Jews are not bound by your higher standards, Roly. How high are the standards, when they leave a people with no safe homeland?

 

[Laufey]

Query: if the non-Jewish Palestinians have somehow become a people since 1948, haven't the Israelis as well? Much, if not most, of Israel's population was born there, which makes them native just as are the others.

Which is why I believe the Israelis have a right to have their state. Especially since it's been that long and most of them were born there.

My problem is with the Israelis holding down the Palestinians and preventing them from having their own state and freedom. I also have a problem with Israel continuing to increase the size of their state. Palestine today is really just a big prison controlled by the Israelis so of course people are gonna rebell. The Palestinians do not have a modern army so their only way to fight back is with random attacks. Plus Israel is a democracy and the people there elect the people who continue to treat the Palestinians in an inhumane way.

I'm not saying that I root for innocent people to die... but the attacks are understandable. If they don't want the Palestinians to be so extreme then perhaps they should stop contributing to their environment being extreme.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: 5 Nations Condemn Israel's Settlement" Plan

The Isaelis withdrew from Gaza and it merely has become a base for attacks on Israel. Is there any reason to believe withdrawing from other land claimed by the Palestinians would have a different result? Gaza was important as a first step. If the palestinians could occupy it peacefully, it would make it feasible for the Israelis to withdraw from other land.
I agree the expansion of the settlements should stop and the US should condition its future support on that ceasation.

 

[TX-Beau]

Criticize Israel = Pro-Palestinian? Where is that written?

What a binary world Ben must live in.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Long story short Mariatenbre: the conflict between the U.S. and tribes never ended because both sides embraced a respect for life, gay rights, or whatever other nonsense you are using to say the Israel-Palestine conflict should be treated "differently." It ended when so many Native Americans had been massacred and driven to the threat of extinction that they had no more recourse other than to submit to being relocated, giving up their self-sufficiency and switching to a sedentary life of badly mismanaged survival off of government subsidies and food supplies. And many Native scholars would say the conflict never even ended there but changed to the courtroom instead of the battlefield.

Is that your endgame plan for Israel and Palestine? I know you keep repeating, and seem to sincerely believe, that Israel has "tried to make peace many times" but let's be blunt here. What they're doing now and what they've done many times in the past is simply take what they want and then offered Palestinians the chance to sign a treaty and legitimize it, which they won't do. It's not fundamentally different from the pattern of western expansion hitting Native Americans, it's just being played out in modern times. And you can talk all you like about how this particular enemy is much more vile or much less deserving of sympathy but the fact remains that few people viewed Native Americans in the 17, 18 or 1900's as any better and the fact that no one had thought up strap-on explosives yet really isn't relevant to say all the other fundamental issues involved over land and historical claims to land aren't basically the same between the two comparisons.

A lot of what you say indicates, to me, your belief that people, or at least the Palestinians, need to prove to the world that they're moral and ethical and good enough to deserve statehood, or equal rights, or equal treatment, or consideration of their right to exist in any question where it conflicts with Israel's perogatives. Have you ever heard of the Five Civilized Tribes? When white expansion through the west was basically undeniable, five tribes in the American southeast decided that their best chance of survival was not in conflict but through assimilation, as the justification of the violent treatment of other tribes as whites settled further west was the "barbarism and savagery" of the Native Americans and the fact that they were "uncivilized." So these five tribes learned English, they began white southern style plantation working-- some even became slaveowners! They adopted western style dress, most converted to Christianity, they even began printing newspapers. They were in many regards indistinguishable in lifestyle from the whites they lived on the border of in the south. That didn't mean a single thing when Andrew Jackson decided that land was for whites first and Indians could go take a hike. Nor did the fact that they'd behaved so civilly, avoiding conflict and even pursuing their grievance through a writ of certiari to the U.S. Supreme Court engender any big sympathy for them when Jackson removed them to reservations.

What's the moral of this story? The moral is that the idea that people have to, or even SHOULD, try to "prove" to you their worth as civilized human beings before you "acknowledge" their right to exist is an absolute bullcrap argument, and that even people who do try to do this are still going to have someone like you stand up and say screw them anyway when huge money or wealth or power is to be gained by displacing them.

Yes I think that only civilized countries should have their own countries. People who are theocratic despots should not be given their own country.

There is a big difference between the Palestinians and the Native Americans. First of all the Israelis were given a piece of land that always belonged to them and which had a strong Jewish presence to give Jews in the Middle East and beyond a place free of persecution. The so called Palestinians could have lived as equals in Israel and could have their own country, however they refused because they wanted to destroy all Jews. There is a huge difference between Israeli treatment of Palestinians and of Native Americans such as the five civilized tribes. First of all many Palestinians own land in Israel and keep their culture and religion there. There are even Arab political parties in Israel. There never were Native American political parties in America. The Israelis have agreed many times to give the Palestinians a share of land and quite a large sum of land as well. The Americans never agreed to give the Native Americans any piece of land or statehood. Really if anything the Europeans were more so similar to the Palestinians. Genocidal, anti gay invaders who invaded and displaced a people just like the ancient Arabs displaced many Jews. Jews getting a piece of land there is actually no different then Native Americans getting their own state in America. Plus as I mentioned before the Native Americans deserved a state more then the genocidal, sexist and anti gay whites who oppresed them.

I fully state that only civilized people deserve a country. People with kids shows with a a rip off of Mickey Mouse teaching young kids how to be suicide bombers and to kill men, women and children of Jews do not deserve their own state. Anymore then North Korea, Soviet Russia, or Nazi Germany deserve a state. The difference between America and Israel is that the Native Americans had to become more like the savage Europeans to be accepted and even then were never given their own stable land. The Palestinians merely have to become civilized unlike the third world despots that they are and respect Israel's right to exist. They they would get their own piece of land and no one would bother them anymore. Hell many Palestinians in Israel live freely in Israel right now with their own political parties. You and I both know that Native Americans were never given this boon.

So really you have no idea of the situation between Israel and America. The Europeans were uncivilized people trying to create a genocide on the civilized Native Americans. The Israelis are a civilized people trying to defend themselves against an enemy who wants them dead. So really the Pallys are the Europeans and the Israelis are the Native Americans. The Pallys are a bunch of anti gay, woman, hating, genocidal racists like the Christian Europeans and the Israelis are religiously tolerant, pro gay, pro female people who are merely trying to defend themselves. In fact many Native Americans would be insulted if you compared them to the Pallys.

Point in fact I have a question to you. Hypothetically if the Pallys or some other Islamic junta got to America first. How do you think they would have dealt with the Pagan, feminist and gay friendly Native Americans. Just like what the racist Arabs have done to the Black Africans they would have wiped them out and would have been far more brutal then the White European Christians. Think about this before you defend these people.

 

[nafhoosier]

Which is why I believe the Israelis have a right to have their state. Especially since it's been that long and most of them were born there.

My problem is with the Israelis holding down the Palestinians and preventing them from having their own state and freedom. I also have a problem with Israel continuing to increase the size of their state. Palestine today is really just a big prison controlled by the Israelis so of course people are gonna rebell. The Palestinians do not have a modern army so their only way to fight back is with random attacks. Plus Israel is a democracy and the people there elect the people who continue to treat the Palestinians in an inhumane way.

I'm not saying that I root for innocent people to die... but the attacks are understandable. If they don't want the Palestinians to be so extreme then perhaps they should stop contributing to their environment being extreme.

I agree with everything you say until the last part where you say the attacks are "understandable".

They are not.

 

[Mariatenebre]

You don't get it, even though it's been repeated ad nauseum in this topic already. The Native Americans do not have their own state on this continent. They have no self-governed independent territory. They are a PART of the United States. They can own land IN the United States. But they are not allowed any claim of independence FROM the United States. Clear now?




Daaaww, let me play a mournful melody on my violin, to go with your sad song. NOBODY is entitled to land their ancestors owned once upon a time. No Biblical fairy tail, and not even historical fact gives you ANY claim to land you haven't carved out of someone else's territory with blood and fire. My country owned MOST of Eastern Europe in the middle ages. We were one of the two great empires in the region at the time (the other being Byzantium). Now we are a submissive poodle-shaped speck the size of Indiana, with very little to show for more than a thousand years of history. Should we demand all the countries north, west and southwest of us to give us their land because we used to own it "back in the day"?

Which is to say, Israel is INVADING other people's land, forcefully taking it from them, and in terms of what that horrible region is like, I guess that's ok. But let's not pretend they are anything other than stone-cold conquerors that kill civilians and bully their way into the region, unfairly backed by the US. Painting a terrorist state as some haven of beautiful democracy, unfairly hated by its neighbors, is just so dishonest that it makes me wanna puke.

I never said that Native Americans had their own state in this country. What I said was they owned land and for the most part were able to govern themselves.

Next people are entitled to land that was stolen from them. Also people are most certainly entitiled to a homeland free of persecution. The Arabs drove out many of the Jews and oppressed the large Jewish diaspora that remained in Israel. Said piece of land was meant to give the Jews who were oppressed by the Arabs a place to live free from persecution as well as Jews globally. Plus as I mentioned before there was never historically a country called Palestine. They were always under foreign rule by such nations as the Ottomans and Jordanians. It was only when they were under Jewish rule did they have a problem with this. This piece of land was merely given back to the original owners and not the Arabs who came in and took the land by force. Said countries you mentioned that inevitable became their own countries in your empire I doubt were depossesed and the people driven out of their country by another people. The Jews were driven out and as such they deserve their land back. It all was originally their land so Israel is invading nothing. They are merely taking back what is theirs. Also they unlike the Pallys do not kill civilians or atleast try not to and occupy the lands to have some security. It is far from a terrorist state but is the only free, secular, democratic, pro female and pro gay state in the area and you castigate them in favor of a people who would cut your face off.

If a free and equal society makes you wanna puke then to quote Veronica Sawyer from Heathers "Lick it up baby, lick it up."

Also these two videos refute much of your claims.

Note I do not endorse SunTV or Michael Coren but the claims made in this video are erudite. In fact I hate that Catholic cunt Michael Coren although Robert Spencer is pretty cool. Which I think it is funny that Liberals castigate the Jews but do not castigate the Turks or Iranians for actually occupying nations like Cyprus.

However I do endorse this video by the awesome Atheist Joniversity.

 

[Rolyo85]

I agree with everything you say until the last part where you say the attacks are "understandable".

They are not.

False. They are. When you are threatened, and forcefully relocated, you respond with violence. Especially in the Middle East. It's perfectly understandable and natural. If we, the uber enlightened West, wanted it any other way, we would not just dump Israel on everyone there and then whistle a tune of appreciation to whatever violent act they deemed fit to commit.

I never said that Native Americans had their own state in this country. What I said was they owned land and for the most part were able to govern themselves.

Also people are most certainly entitiled to a homeland free of persecution. The Arabs drove out many of the Jews and oppressed the large Jewish diaspora that remained in Israel. Said piece of land was meant to give the Jews who were oppressed by the Arabs a place to live free from persecution as well as Jews globally. Plus as I mentioned before there was never historically a country called Palestine. They were always under foreign rule by such nations as the Ottomans and Jordanians. It was only when they were under Jewish rule did they have a problem with this. This piece of land was merely given back to the original owners and not the Arabs who came in and took the land by force. Said countries you mentioned that inevitable became their own countries in your empire I doubt were depossesed and the people driven out of their country by another people. The Jews were driven out and as such they deserve their land back. It all was originally their land so Israel is invading nothing. They are merely taking back what is theirs. Also they unlike the Pallys do not kill civilians or atleast try not to and occupy the lands to have some security. It is far from a terrorist state but is the only free, secular, democratic, pro female and pro gay state in the area and you castigate them in favor of a people who would cut your face off.

If a free and equal society makes you wanna puke then to quote Veronica Sawyer from Heathers "Lick it up baby, lick it up."

Wait, are you seriously not seeing the lack of logic and the intellectual dishonesty in your two opening sentences there? By your own logic, Native Americans are ENTITLED to a chunk of this continent, because it was stolen from them.

The white man came, stole the red man's land and drove him to near extinction. The red man has ALWAYS been here, quite possibly thousands of years longer than Jews occupied any territory anywhere. Yet the white man feels no guilt and has made not a single step into recognizing any Native American state. Because it's ok to force OTHERS to accept somebody else's claims, but it is not ok to concede any territory to the victim of a genocide YOU did.

By the way, I love how you jump hoops to make it somehow always different with every example of your double standards. Somehow Israel is unique, and they deserve everything, and are beyond criticism.

dishonest

and pathetic

and kinda funny

but not really

85%!

 

[Benvolio]

False. They are. When you are threatened, and forcefully relocated, you respond with violence. Especially in the Middle East. It's perfectly understandable and natural. If we, the uber enlightened West, wanted it any other way, we would not just dump Israel on everyone there and then whistle a tune of appreciation to whatever violent act they deemed fit to commit.

Maria, I find the claim that Jews receiving a sovereign territory in a region NOT owned by those who gave it to them, is the same as Native Americans whose land has been STOLEN by the white man, being given some chunk of territory that they have no autonomous power over, to be extremely dishonest and purposefully disingenuous.

The white man came, stole the red man's land and drove him to near extinction. The red man has ALWAYS been here, quite possibly thousands of years longer than Jews occupied any territory anywhere. Yet the white man feels no guilt and has made not a single step into recognizing any Native American state. Because it's ok to force OTHERS to accept somebody else's claims, but it is not ok to concede any territory to the victim of a genocide YOU did.

It is continuing, as immigrants continue to come, knowing that they are taking jobs and using resources and opportunities which would otherwise be available to the Native Americans.

 

[TX-Beau]

Umm Ben, all those illegals you hate so, ARE pretty much Indians. They just speak Spanish.