Do you believe in God ?

[kallipolis]

Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
The problem with this argument is that the claim "something can not come from nothing" has yet to be demonstrated as true, and thus, can not be used as reason or evidence in the argument for god.

Nor that The Big Bang came out of nothingness...

 

[kallipolis]

On the other hand, the quantum theory of gravity has opened up a new possibility in which there would be no boundary to space-time and so there would be no need to specify the behavior at the boundary. There would be no singularities at which the laws of science broke down, and no edge of space-time at which one would have to appeal to God or some new law to set the boundary conditions for space-time. One could say: "The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary." The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would be neither created nor destroyed. It would just BE.

Quantum theories entertain....

 

[TX-Beau]

Quantum theories entertain....

So does "divine mystery."

 

[kallipolis]

So does "divine mystery."

That's why I use the term...divine mystery....elementary...

 

[Benvolio]

It is illogical for anything to exist. If nothing existed that would be logical. But since something exists, the human mind needs an answer to where and how it came into being. Alas, God as an answer does not solve the problem. Where did he come from.

 

[kallipolis]

It is illogical for anything to exist. If nothing existed that would be logical. But since something exists, the human mind needs an answer to where and how it came into being. Alas, God as an answer does not solve the problem. Where did he come from.

Wisdom informs me that my existence is not the result of an accident.

It is by thinking, that I know, that I am.

Logic provides each of us with the thought, that before I became, who I am...there was nothing that I can rationalise.

That I am, proves that the First Cause, is.

 

[FirmaFan]

Wisdom informs me that my existence is not the result of an accident.

It is by thinking, that I know, that I am.

Logic provides each of us with the thought, that before I became, who I am...there was nothing that I can rationalise.

That I am, proves that the First Cause, is.

This does not take into account, nor eliminates, the problem of solipsism.

 

[Jacquemar]

^^ Which is precisely why I'm a skeptic.

 

[TX-Beau]

This does not take into account, nor eliminates, the problem of solipsism.

Nor does it take into account logic

 

[kallipolis]

This does not take into account, nor eliminates, the problem of solipsism.

I am sure that you can discuss this topic on another thread where self focus is the matter, that matters.

 

[Spensed]

That I am, proves that the First Cause, is.

Maybe not: http://www.positiveatheism.org/faq/firstcause.htm

 

[kallipolis]

You were wise to begin your message, with Maybe.

I have always liked the question, why is there something, rather than nothing?

The answers are guaranteed to ensure that the discussion will last ad infinitum.

My time is finite.

 

[Spensed]

^ Your time is finite or it is infinitely present. Absent an eternal perspective, who knows?

If one acknowledges and accepts the uncertainty and the unknown, the something-or-nothing discussion is moot until more becomes certain and known.

Subjective religious belief has not been reliable in the past. If one has such belief or wants to assert it, one needs to view it always with skepticism and doubt. That's the context for belief in any God.

 

[kallipolis]

Your time is finite or it is infinitely present

The present is, always. Leading me to believe that the divine mystery is infinitely present, whereas the Universe had a beginning...so greater minds inform us.

 

[Spensed]

^ Not sure that the universe having a beginning tells us anything more that the universe had a beginning.

It doesn't follow that some God must have started it, else who started the God.

As I say, the better view seems to be to accept the unknown and the uncertain at least until something else is objectively revealed. One doesn't create a missing key by choosing to believe in one.

 

[kallipolis]

That the Universe had a beginning does inform us that before the Universe had its beginning, something caused the Universe to begin.

To believe that the Universe came into being, of its own cause is to assume that the Universe, came into existence out of nothingness. Nothing, comes out of nothing.

It can also be argued that the infinity of nothing, is nothing ad infinitum.

 

[TX-Beau]

That the Universe had a beginning does inform us that before the Universe had its beginning, something caused the Universe to begin.

To believe that the Universe came into being, of its own cause is to assume that the Universe, came into existence out of nothingness. Nothing, comes out of nothing.

It can also be argued that the infinity of nothing, is nothing ad infinitum.

(emphasis mine)

"...It can be argued that tautology in statement is statement of tautology, please leave a few rupees in the bowl on your way out..."

 

[jbrown329]

Personally, I don't care if people 'believe'. I don't. I generally don't have a problem with religion, until... they make their religious views into law (which pretty much sums up the religious right in the USA). When they try to shove said religion down my throat. When they screech that the United States IS a "Christian nation". No, it's not. To be a "Christian nation" it would have to be a theocracy (which a whole bunch of the religious right would love). Or when they have school books printed which state that Moses is a Founding Father (Texas). When they cherry pick the Bible so that it fits their hateful/bigoted views.

My dearest friend is Christian. She knows that I don't believe. When I told her, she was a little disappointed but it didn't affect our friendship. We've often discussed the religious right and she thinks that they are touched in the head (and not in a good way). One time I said to her that IMHO, she and the religious right pray to different gods. She replied "there's only 1 God". Yes, I told her. But yours' is a loving and forgiving God. Theirs' is one of hatred, greed, vengeance and other assorted ills. Then I told her that IMHO the religious right took the Bible, ripped it in half between Old and New and threw the New into the garbage.

She let out a loud sigh, slowly shook her head and somewhat sadly, agreed with me.

When it comes to the religious right, I am far more tolerant and forgiving of my fellow man than they are. I also treat people with far more respect than they do. On average, I bet I follow the 10 Commandments better than a large number of the religious right do.

 

[Spensed]

That the Universe had a beginning does inform us that before the Universe had its beginning, something caused the Universe to begin.

To believe that the Universe came into being, of its own cause is to assume that the Universe, came into existence out of nothingness. Nothing, comes out of nothing.

It can also be argued that the infinity of nothing, is nothing ad infinitum.

You can't accept that the universe came into being of its own cause.

However, you seem content to believe that God came into being of his own cause.

Faith defeats logic.

 

[kallipolis]

Scientists inform us that the Universe came into being some 13.8 billion years ago. Georges Lemaître noted in 1927, that an expanding universe might be traced back in time to an originating single point, otherwise known to us today as The Big Bang (a term attributed to Fred Hoyle), and scientists continue to build on Lemaître's idea of cosmic expansion. In other words the Universe continues to expand.

Scientists tell us that the Universe had a beginning, and have been able to time this event...approximately. There is a chronology for the ongoing expansion of the Universe from its single point otherwise known as (The Big Bang).

Speculation on the causation of The Big Bang remains on the table for debate. No question in front of the human race is more sublime than why there is a Universe: why there is anything rather than nothing.

Bertrand Russell chose to reduce the discussion to its simplest level, when telling the ignorant masses:

The universe is just there, and that's all.

Fred Hoyle could not accept an uncaused nor a supernaturally caused origin of the Universe. With respect to the first option, he wrote, "This most peculiar situation is taken by many astronomers to represent the origin of the universe. The universe is supposed to have begun at this particular time. From where? The usual answer, surely an unsatisfactory one, is: from nothing!"

In Fred Hoyle's mind equally unsatisfactory is the proposal of a supernatural cause. Hoyle complained :

To many people this thought process seems highly satisfactory because a 'something' outside physics can then be introduced at t = 0. By a semantic manoeuvre, the word 'something' is then replaced by 'god,' except that the first letter becomes a capital, God, in order to warn us that we must not carry the enquiry any further.

Here lies the dilemma when searching for answers, to questions that no one can answer with any certainty.

You may recall my earlier reference:

The answers are guaranteed to ensure that the discussion will last ad infinitum.

My time is finite.