Leather is Dead Skin

[nijuusei]

very well then; evidence
we have a tomato plant in our garden,
it produces tomato's
and no animals have been killed for it ^_-
there! evidence you can get food without killing for it!
satisfied now? lol

 

[lyconthrope]

I dont give a shit, I am top of the food chain
I was merely trying to point out that still very little is known about the plants and animals we consume, a lot of what has been said is baded upon assumptions and huggy touchy feeling thoughts for fluffy little lambs and cows.

it seems some in here are unwilling to simply allow those of us who wish to be CARNIVORES to be that way and leave us alone.
(yes I know we are technically omnivores but I prefer to refer to myself as a CARNIVORE, is that gonna be a problem?)

you like cows, I get it, I like cows too..............medium rare with salsa.

the OP is gone, he clearly didnt care enough to stick around and see what happened (probably works for PETA)

so how about, the animal loving vegetarians go back to your corner, us meat eaters will go to ours and we will let this thread die......

Humanely of old age of course, because slaughtering it would be cruel

 

[lyconthrope]

very well then; evidence
we have a tomato plant in our garden,
it produces tomato's
and no animals have been killed for it ^_-
there! evidence you can get food without killing for it!
satisfied now? lol

omg dumbass, he was asking you for evidence of SENTIENT beings outside of the human race, not whether or not animals die to make veg

(FYI, when things die they decompose into the soil, so I am sure that somewhere in the soil around your tomato plant there is an animals who died so you could grow tomatoes)

 

[lyconthrope]

these kids today, think they have all the answers

 

[nijuusei]

lol ~ enough of this nonsense
i'd like to add one more thing!

in life, choose to nourish,
not to harm ^_-

no happiness comes from feeding on the suffering of others

 

[lyconthrope]

aawww cute, is that available stitched on a pillow somewhere?

 

[Johnny Yen]

Oh good god! Are you so wrapped up in your own importance that you have never heard a broccoli scream?

 

[1gayguy]

Veganism will soon go the way of South Beach diet. A fad only.Then we'll see this person at Wendy's ordering a triple with cheese!

 

[Swellegant]

very well then; evidence
we have a tomato plant in our garden,
it produces tomato's
and no animals have been killed for it ^_-
there! evidence you can get food without killing for it!
satisfied now? lol

I take it that no insects have come anywhere near your tomato? You raised it in a little glass box so the tomato worms and the snails and the fruit-flies and the leaf-curling microbes can't get to it? And if they did, you let them have your tomatoes and went and bought some more at the store? Or did you murder them with (no doubt organic) pesticides?

Insects are animals, cholly. I don't think the point is whether or not a vegetable feels pain or whether a cow is sentient... the point is, where do you choose to draw the Circle of Responsibility? Around just mammals? Around animals with two eyes? Around animals that have starred in Disney cartoons? Around all living things?

There are Indian mystics who do not eat bread or grain or tubers or anything that has to die in order to be harvested... they subsist on windfall fruits and nuts. They believe that all life is sacred, not just cute fuzzy anthropomorphized life. That strikes me as unbearably tedious but at least it holds water logically... they've taken the idea all the way to its logical conclusion rather than stopping in some middle-area.

My issue with people who get very self-righteous about their vegetarianism is that they've chosen their Circle of Responsibility just as arbitrarily as I have mine. My Circle of Responsibility is human beings and their pets, and it stops there: if you're not a person or a person's personal friend, I will use you as food or clothing, or kill you to keep you out of my house. I have my reasons for that, reams and shoals and bucketfuls of reasons, all of which I would be glad to share with you; but my choice is still primarily arbitrary. And so I would not dream of telling someone that their choice of Circles of Responsibility is wrong.

And finally, you do not come off as particularly credible when your posts are filled with LOLs and caret-winkies. It sounds almost as if you don't actually believe what you're saying, you're just saying it to piss people off. I'm sure that's not true, as I've read many of your posts and find you consistent if nothing else, but seriously... be serious if you're talking about something that is serious to you. Otherwise we're just going to think you're another crackpot suffering from protein deprivation.

 

[Negasta]

There a things that are just completely unnatural.

Veganism is one of them. The entire human digestive tract is far better adapted to digest meat and animal products than it is to digest plant material. Plants just do not contain many of the essential nutrients that humans need to survive, such vitamin B12 and vitamin A. Plants also lack the complete protein that humans need, only meat, milk and eggs contains these proteins.

For God's sake, the only reason are brains got as big as they are in the first place is because our ancestors started eating more meat and fish!

Guess what happens to babies that are fed a vegan diet?

Here is a clue: They die! They get brain damage, waste away and die! Even if the baby of a vegan mother is breast fed, the fact that the mother does not eat meat or animal products causes her milk to lack certain constituents that are critical to the baby's brain development. Just recently a vegan couple who's baby died from malnutrition because he was fed a vegan diet, were found guilty of murder and child abuse, the third such case in recent years.

The very fact that you need to take special supplements to survive properly on a vegan diet is an indication that is not a naturally sustainable diet for humans and looking at what a vegan diet does to children, shows how completely idiotic veganism is.

 

[nijuusei]

I take it that no insects have come anywhere near your tomato? You raised it in a little glass box so the tomato worms and the snails and the fruit-flies and the leaf-curling microbes can't get to it? And if they did, you let them have your tomatoes and went and bought some more at the store? Or did you murder them with (no doubt organic) pesticides?

actually i find tomato plants to be quite resistant to diseases and the such,
they're a member of the rather venomous nightshade family after all ^_-
oww.. and i case you're interested, all the the vegetables i buy come from organic farming ^_^

Insects are animals, cholly. I don't think the point is whether or not a vegetable feels pain or whether a cow is sentient... the point is, where do you choose to draw the Circle of Responsibility? Around just mammals? Around animals with two eyes? Around animals that have starred in Disney cartoons? Around all living things?

i choose the path of least harm, i do not proclaim to be perfect, i just avoid harm where this is possible ^_-

There are Indian mystics who do not eat bread or grain or tubers or anything that has to die in order to be harvested... they subsist on windfall fruits and nuts. They believe that all life is sacred, not just cute fuzzy anthropomorphized life. That strikes me as unbearably tedious but at least it holds water logically... they've taken the idea all the way to its logical conclusion rather than stopping in some middle-area.

yes, fruitarians, i think they're quite interesting indeed!
i hope in the coming years some good scientific literature will be published concerning such a diet, it'd make a most interesting read ^_^
perhaps i'll make a study-trip to India, when i have to money to do such a thing ^_-

My issue with people who get very self-righteous about their vegetarianism is that they've chosen their Circle of Responsibility just as arbitrarily as I have mine. My Circle of Responsibility is human beings and their pets, and it stops there: if you're not a person or a person's personal friend, I will use you as food or clothing, or kill you to keep you out of my house. I have my reasons for that, reams and shoals and bucketfuls of reasons, all of which I would be glad to share with you; but my choice is still primarily arbitrary. And so I would not dream of telling someone that their choice of Circles of Responsibility is wrong

sawry if i sounded self-righteous, i don't intend to, gomen ^^''
i just easily get emotional when innocent lives are at stake,
i would like people to think a moment or two about what they're eating everyday and just where that food comes from

And finally, you do not come off as particularly credible when your posts are filled with LOLs and caret-winkies. It sounds almost as if you don't actually believe what you're saying, you're just saying it to piss people off. I'm sure that's not true, as I've read many of your posts and find you consistent if nothing else, but seriously... be serious if you're talking about something that is serious to you. Otherwise we're just going to think you're another crackpot suffering from protein deprivation.

it's a shame no one here chose to respond the serious posts i did make,
the one you quoted wasn't very serious indeed, but no one even bothers to read or think about the arguments i did offer, it's easy to band together and shoot down that crazy tree-hugger of a vegan
but for the sake of the lives at stake, please be sensible and at least give it some thought, it won't kill you ^_-

 

[nijuusei]

There a things that are just completely unnatural.

many things about our lifestyle could be considered 'unnatural'
for example; ipods don't exactly grow on trees

Veganism is one of them. The entire human digestive tract is far better adapted to digest meat and animal products than it is to digest plant material. Plants just do not contain many of the essential nutrients that humans need to survive, such vitamin B12 and vitamin A. Plants also lack the complete protein that humans need, only meat, milk and eggs contains these proteins.

For God's sake, the only reason are brains got as big as they are in the first place is because our ancestors started eating more meat and fish!

Guess what happens to babies that are fed a vegan diet?

Here is a clue: They die! They get brain damage, waste away and die! Even if the baby of a vegan mother is breast fed, the fact that the mother does not eat meat or animal products causes her milk to lack certain constituents that are critical to the baby's brain development. Just recently a vegan couple who's baby died from malnutrition because he was fed a vegan diet, were found guilty of murder and child abuse, the third such case in recent years.

The very fact that you need to take special supplements to survive properly on a vegan diet is an indication that is not a naturally sustainable diet for humans and looking at what a vegan diet does to children, shows how completely idiotic veganism is.

vitamin b12 is indeed difficult to extract from a plant-based diet,
and that's why all modern vegan products are fortified with it.
don't think of veganism as a 'fad' as some other member here said,
allot of time, energy and research has gone into it over the years.
yes, you have to do your homework, but when you can save the animals the suffering of having to lead the lives that they now do, makes it all worth it.

if any people here have an interest in finding out more about how to establish a healthy and balanced vegan diet, i highly recommend this book

 

[Swellegant]

actually i find tomato plants to be quite resistant to diseases and the such, they're a member of the rather venomous nightshade family after all ^_- and i case you're interested, all the the vegetables i buy come from organic farming ^_^

True... in fact, tomatoes and potatoes are quite toxic, even to humans. They have healthful properties, too, but I know a lot of people who've removed them from their diets. And while I agree that tomatoes are particularly resistant to insects and disease, there are still a hell of a lot of insects and cephalopods who love them. Even organic farms kill those creatures rather than allow their crops to be damaged.

I choose the path of least harm, i do not proclaim to be perfect, i just avoid harm where this is possible ^_-

That's very noble of you... I just don't happen to care about harming animals, any more than you particularly care about harming plants. Is it possible to exist without killing animals? Sure it is. It's possible to live without all kinds of stuff... but it's not necessary.

yes, fruitarians, i think they're quite interesting indeed! i hope in the coming years some good scientific literature will be published concerning such a diet, it'd make a most interesting read ^_^ perhaps i'll make a study-trip to India, when i have to money to do such a thing ^_-

All you have to do is look at them to know that their sacred diet isn't very healthy... rail thin, balding, sallow, toothless. No science required.

A lot of people go on and on about how healthy a vegetarian diet is... but I see very sick vegetarians all the time. Now, a lot of vegetarians will make an effort to ensure that they're getting the nutrients their bodies require; but so do a lot of omnivores. They always compare healthy vegetarians to unhealthy meat-eaters, but they ignore the healthy meat-eaters who are just as healthy as the healthy vegetarians, if not moreso.

i just easily get emotional when innocent lives are at stake, i would like people to think a moment or two about what they're eating everyday and just where that food comes from

What makes an animal's life "innocent"? Doesn't innocence as a state require a corollary of potential wickedness? Animals are neither wicked nor innocent... they do not possess morality. They do not have hopes, dreams, likes and dislikes, they don't care about eachother and they don't care about us. I don't see the point in characterizing nonmoral creatures as "innocent."

Did you know that baby chickens will attack and kill any other baby chicken in their presence if it looks different from them? If it's slightly larger or slightly smaller or has a white spot? There's no morality involved, it's just a genetic trait to keep the line strong. Cows trample eachother all the time... maybe not the females, but the males certainly do... survival of the fittest. If you think cows are cool, I invite you to spend some time in an enclosed area with a bull.

And finally, I do know where my food comes from. I know where my furs come from. Now, as a city-bred person, it would be very easy for me to think that food and clothing originate at the store; but I am also not very far removed from the farm on which my Grandmother grew up, and I have visited working farms and ranches. I've seen cows being slaughtered... it's rather a tidy operation compared to some other processes I've witnessed. I've also seen pigs trample a duck to death for no reason at all.

The animal kingdom is not Charlotte's Web where cuddly little critters sing and dance and get along. And morality does not apply to the nonmoral.

it's a shame no one here chose to respond the serious posts i did make, the one you quoted wasn't very serious indeed, but no one even bothers to read or think about the arguments i did offer, it's easy to band together and shoot down that crazy tree-hugger of a vegan ...but for the sake of the lives at stake, please be sensible and at least give it some thought, it won't kill you ^_-

I did read all of them, and I thought I'd addressed most of your points... I only quoted that one because it was the last one there.

So here's my response to your serious posts: I believe differently from you. I do not think that animals have rights, only humans have rights. Why? Because only humans comprehend rights. Does it contribute to positive change to kill animals? No, but neither does it contribute to positive change not to. It's irrelevant to the concept of positivity.

I have given the question serious thought. If I hadn't, how would I have been able to construct all of the above arguments? These things don't just fall out of my mouth as a conditioned response. All of us who have taken the time to discuss this at length have given the thing serious thought.

Finally, I don't mean to attack you... I was grouchy last night from another thread, and you got the brunt of it. I'm sorry. But it only looks like we're ganging up on you because you're the only one posting a dissenting opinion. The rest of us pretty much agree with each-other. Not that you should abandon your position just because you're in the minority; I would just rather have heard a different set of arguments from your side of the debate than the ones I've heard a million times before.

 

[OtterJoq]

I have canine teeth in my mouth.

They're designed to rip animal flesh in order to give my body the nutrients it needs to work at its peak level.

I use my canines daily.

Mmm....jerky...

 

[lyconthrope]

omg is this STILL going on?! hehe

we have the digestive systems to eat meat, deal with it
we need the nourishment that meat provides to live, deal with it
people have been clothing themselves in animal skins for centuries (I am archaeologist, trust me) deal with it
the world isnt going to go veggie overnight just because tomatoes feel less pain than sheep, deal with it

your the only one in here who thinks vegetarianism will save mankind....

so

accept, deal and move on with your "perfect" existance as a fluffy loving veggie

 

[lyconthrope]

And this is coming from someone who has an artic wolf as her avatar!

hehe and? doesnt mean I wouldnt eat her and steal her fur if I had to!

(her fur looks all nice and fluffy doesnt it? would make a great rug)

 

[nijuusei]

regardless of any of yours ability to care for animal suffering,
it's a well known-fact that it takes far more energy and resources to produce meat, then you'll ever get out of it! and all that while there are people in poorer parts of the world going hungry!
it's a total luxury product which is completely underpriced!
eating meat isn't economical or responsible at all!

- it is bad for your health (cattle these days doesn't exactly get the best of diets available to say the least, they are furthermore pumped full with hormones and anti-biotics and live in an unnatural environment which is very stressing for the animals)

- the cattle industry is one of the main contributers to greenhouse gases

also i find it illogical to go through all that trouble to raise cattle and slaughter them, when there are far more efficient and inexpensive ways to get the nutrients we need ^_-

we see global warming and how meat industry contributes to it,
in these times of climate change and global crisis we simply cannot afford this!

the practice of meat eating is inefficient, out-dated and barbarian,
and soon, it will either be this old habit or us who will belong to the past

we can all buy green cars and install solar panels on our rooftops,
but if we keep eating that beloved steak in the evening,
it will all have been in vain

 

[lyconthrope]

ok, make up your mind, are you pissed because we arent vegetarians, because we dont have an electric car, or because of global warming?

"we see global warming and how meat industry contributes to it,
in these times of climate change and global crisis we simply cannot afford this!

the practice of meat eating is inefficient, out-dated and barbarian,
and soon, it will either be this old habit or us who will belong to the past

"

jesus, dramatic much? so now not only are we evil for eating meat but we are destroying the planet and dooming the human race?

would you let it go already! your not gonna change the mind of anyone in here, I am a meat eater, I will always be a meat eater, doesnt matter how many stupid little speeches you preach at me, how many videos I get shown or animals being slaughtered etc.....it aint happening!

get down off your tiny home made soap box and move on with your life

 

[Johnny Yen]

Oh sure, that may very well be true now, but what happens if everyone starts living on/consuming large quantities of beans, and broccoli?

Um yeah, have you ever met a vegan who wasn't gassy?