marco rubio and Ted Cruz white hispanics

[Benvolio]

Commonwealth of Virginia Certificate of Marriage; 1884

How the Irish Become White (Teacher education candidates from the University of Texas at Austin; 2005)

How the Irish Became White (Art MacDonald, PhD; Minister and Director of Social Advocacy at Allegheny Unitarian Universalist Church)

No, it won't do. The alleged marriage certificate is typed. It may be intended as a copy but not a photo copy. "It" was not filed until 1940. In any event it is only one instance.
The other two links are recent works trying to distort discrimination against Irish into a recent invention of racism as embracing factors not related to race. Particularly offensive is the attempt to label culture as race in an attempt to argue that criticism of a culture is automatically as taboo as criticizing a race. Many cultures have traits which merit criticism. The subject is too important to be shoved under the rug as " racism".
I have never tried to justify the treatment of Irish but it arose from cultural differences, including religion, not race.

 

[opinterph]

No, it won't do. The alleged marriage certificate is typed. It may be intended as a copy but not a photo copy. "It" was not filed until 1940.

The Marriage License was originally filed on December 15, 1884. The “Color” was changed in 1940 to prevent these inferior immigrants from marrying into (and thereby polluting) the pure white race.

Research is the key to understanding.

Something funky happened in 1940.​

In any event it is only one instance.

It is a tiny part of a failed battle to maintain racial purity. It is racism.

Particularly offensive is the attempt to label culture as race in an attempt to argue that criticism of a culture is automatically as taboo as criticizing a race.

As Dr. Waters pointed out, White Protestants in America at the beginning of the 20th century were fearful that the wave of millions and millions of immigrants would cause “race suicide.” In other words, real Americans (WASPs) would eventually become a minority in “their own country.”

 

[Benvolio]

The Marriage License was originally filed on December 15, 1884. The “Color” was changed in 1940 to prevent these inferior immigrants from marrying into (and thereby polluting) the pure white race.

Research is the key to understanding.

Something funky happened in 1940.​

It is a tiny part of a failed battle to maintain racial purity. It is racism.




As Dr. Waters pointed out, White Protestants in America at the beginning of the 20th century were fearful that the wave of millions and millions of immigrants would cause “race suicide.” In other words, real Americans (WASPs) would eventually become a minority in “their own country.”

VA had no general policy of considering the Irish as non white and the clerks had no authority to change for that reason. The clerk apparently believed that one of them was partly non white. Yes it was racism. But is does not support the claim that Irish, as such, were considered non white. As far as we know it was an isolated incident.

 

[opinterph]

As far as we know it was an isolated incident.

Maybe you should provide a link demonstrating that Irish Americans were always considered white.

What if you’re not quite white? (Professor, What if …; 2008)

1924 Racial Integrity Act (Library of Virginia)

Anglo-Saxon Clubs of America Application (Encyclopedia Virginia)

1943 Surname List by Walter Plecker targeting "Virginia mongrels" (Melungeon Heritage Association)​

 

[Benvolio]

Maybe you should provide a link demonstrating that Irish Americans were always considered white.

What if you’re not quite white? (Professor, What if …; 2008)

1924 Racial Integrity Act (Library of Virginia)

Anglo-Saxon Clubs of America Application (Encyclopedia Virginia)

1943 Surname List by Walter Plecker targeting "Virginia mongrels" (Melungeon Heritage Association)​

I can point to the Census for one thing. From the beginning Irish were considered white. In the 1790 Census everyone was either white or slave.https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/overview/1790.html

 

[borg69unimatrix]

https://theamericanscholar.org/leaving-race-behind/#.VS72apOd530

No one with an ounce of knowledge about Nineteenth Century America disputes that the Irish suffered significant discrimination and were considered non-white.

Fascinating...

I can remember also seeing blacks, Asians, Japanese, Germans, ... spoofed in this same type manner. Is it a non-white thing, or a perceived difference in "evolution", lowering the "enemy" to simian less evolved, culturally lacking "barbarians".

Wasn't this also ancient Rome's mentality? Anyone not born a Roman citizen with the walls of Rome was considered a less civilized "barbarian" outsider as well.

2,000 years and Roman politics haven't changed much at all.

*** I will confess to accusing red neck straight guys as being chest thumping, knuckle dragging mouth breathers a time or two myself.

 

[kallipolis]

I can remember also seeing blacks, Asians, Japanese, Germans, ... spoofed in this same type manner. Is it a non-white thing, or a perceived difference in "evolution", lowering the "enemy" to simian less evolved, culturally lacking "barbarians".

Wasn't this also ancient Rome's mentality? Anyone not born a Roman citizen with the walls of Rome was considered a less civilized "barbarian" outsider as well.

2,000 years and Roman politics haven't changed much at all.

Even in ancient Greece we had the same attitude to those who had not been "blessed" born into Greek civilisation...the Romans were civilised by the Greeks sufficiently to adopt our sense of superiority...Even in Ireland the term "beyond the Pale" referred to living outside the civilised region...Dublin, and its environs....
the references here to the Irish being non-white is social, for during the 19th century newly arrived Irish immigrants competed with black Americans for jobs...leading to the PEJORATIVE term...black..

 

[kallipolis]

It is ironic that in Ireland those Irish who are from the other Irish state, Northern Ireland...and are Protestant, are often referred too as traitors from the black North....the history of Ireland is filled with irony, when considering that some of the greatest authors in the English language emanate from Ireland despite most of them choosing to migrate to, and live in another European country....Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, Samuel Beckett, Jonathan Swift, Bram Stoker, C. S. Lewis, George Bernard Shaw, and W. B. Yeats are a few examples. My 21st century favourite, the late Seamus Heaney migrated from Northern Ireland, to Ireland but was as much at home in the United Kingdom as he was in Ireland. According to the BBC, at one time, Heaney's books made up two-thirds of the sales of living poets in the UK. His work often deals with the local surroundings of Ireland, particularly in Northern Ireland, where he was born and lived until young adulthood.

 

[Benvolio]

I should point out that the Irish themselves often speak of the "Irish Race". Here, for examplehttp://www.amazon.com/Story-Irish-Cosimo-Classics-History/dp/1596050632

 

[kallipolis]

I should point out that the Irish themselves often speak of the "Irish Race". Here, for examplehttp://www.amazon.com/Story-Irish-Cosimo-Classics-History/dp/1596050632

Greek patriots believe the many myths that suggest we Greeks are pure breds...in reality we are as much a bastard people, as are Americans...for which I am eternally gratefully, knowing that successive invasions in Greece have strengthened our gene pool.

Likewise, Ireland is a product of successive invasions, over the centuries.

The principle Irish ports of Belfast, Dublin, Cork began life as Viking settlements.

We know little of human settlement in Ireland, prior to the invasion, from the Iberian peninsular by the Celts who also settled in England, Wales, and Scotland....then there are the Picts...who should not be forgotten...

The Normans began their settlement in Ireland in the 12th century led by Strongbow, Earl of Pembroke in response to a request for assistance from an Irish chieftain, at war with other Irish tribes...who proceeded to grant Strongbow, lands, and property gifts in return for his victories over his enemies...made possible by Strongbow's intervention...blame the Welsh Normans...not the English (the Anglo Saxons, Celts, Jutes, Danes, Vikings etc.)

The Irish are as much a product of successive migration, as is the United States.

Here's an informative article that speaks in depth on the matter of Irish DNA :

http://www.sott.net/article/263587-...-more-complex-origins-than-previously-thought

However, the lastest research into both British and Irish DNA suggests that people on the two islands have much genetically in common. Males in both islands have a strong predominance of Haplogroup 1 gene, meaning that most of us in the British Isles are descended from the same Spanish stone age settlers.

 

[Benvolio]

I

Greek patriots believe the many myths that suggest we Greeks are pure breds...in reality we are as much a bastard people, as are Americans...for which I am eternally gratefully, knowing that successive invasions in Greece have strengthened our gene pool.

Likewise, Ireland is a product of successive invasions, over the centuries.

The principle Irish ports of Belfast, Dublin, Cork began life as Viking settlements







.

We know little of human settlement in Ireland, prior to the invasion, from the Iberian peninsular by the Celts who also settled in England, Wales, and Scotland....then there are the Picts...who should not be forgotten...

The Normans began their settlement in Ireland in the 12th century led by Strongbow, Earl of Pembroke in response to a request for assistance from an Irish chieftain, at war with other Irish tribes...who proceeded to grant Strongbow, lands, and property gifts in return for his victories over his enemies...made possible by Strongbow's intervention...blame the Welsh Normans...not the English (the Anglo Saxons, Celts, Jutes, Danes, Vikings etc.)

The Irish are as much a product of successive migration, as is the United States.

Here's an informative article that speaks in depth on the matter of Irish DNA :

http://www.sott.net/article/263587-...-more-complex-origins-than-previously-thought

I Agee with all that, and the Irish are certainly not a race. I intended to make the point that at times the Irish have thought of themselves as a race, as did other nationalities. I am sure you can find references to the Anglo Saxon race, which it is not. This does not answer the question of whether Irish were considered "non white", in those specific words.

 

[palemale]

I can point to the Census for one thing. From the beginning Irish were considered white. In the 1790 Census everyone was either white or slave.https://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/overview/1790.html

That means nothing. There were very few Irish people in America at that time. The idea of the Irish (as well as Jews, Italians, and a few other groups) as non-white was a 19th Century phenomenon. It picked up steam after Darwin and, later, the Eugenics movement. While race was understood at that time the way we use the term "ethnicity," it did not mean that some European people were considered non-white or non-Caucasian. The Irish are one of the only Northern European groups that was not conquered by the Romans or overrun by Germanic tribes (the Vikings did not leave much of their DNA behind). The Irish are largely a Celtic people, which the English saw as very different than the Anglo-Saxons and, thus, non-white.

 

[palemale]

Here is Stephen Colbert "Part of being Irish even to this day is not like the English....absolutely no doubt
http://www.irishcentral.com/culture...-english-are-bastards-83983637-237683951.html

Did the Irish not have good reason to despise the English? The English starved them, slaughtered them, sold them into slavery, tried to stamp out their language and culture, stole their land and forced millions into exile.

 

[Benvolio]

That means nothing. There were very few Irish people in America at that time. The idea of the Irish (as well as Jews, Italians, and a few other groups) as non-white was a 19th Century phenomenon. It picked up steam after Darwin and, later, the Eugenics movement. While race was understood at that time the way we use the term "ethnicity," it did not mean that some European people were considered non-white or non-Caucasian. The Irish are one of the only Northern European groups that was not conquered by the Romans or overrun by Germanic tribes (the Vikings did not leave much of their DNA behind). The Irish are largely a Celtic people, which the English saw as very different than the Anglo-Saxons and, thus, non-white.

You are merely asserting what we have been debating, and I have challenged the persons asserting it to show that the Irish were considered "non white" in those words.

 

[Benvolio]

Did the Irish not have good reason to despise the English? The English starved them, slaughtered them, sold them into slavery, tried to stamp out their language and culture, stole their land and forced millions into exile.

Yes. My point is that the Irish already hated the English/Americans when they got off the boat. We often hear about the Irish being "oppressed ", but seldom hear about the hatred, resentment and conviction of oppression they brought with them.

 

[White Eagle]

Many early settlers in the United States were descended from Scottish Protestant settlers in Ireland. They called themselves Irish until there was massive Irish Catholic immigration, when they began to call themselves Scotts Irish to distinguish themselves from Irish Catholics, who were indeed considered non-white.

This rings a bell with me. It has been known in my family that we are part Scotts Irish. Learn something every day.

 

[palemale]

Yes. My point is that the Irish already hated the English/Americans when they got off the boat. We often hear about the Irish being "oppressed ", but seldom hear about the hatred, resentment and conviction of oppression they brought with them.

The Irish did not hate the Americans, they came here to escape the British. Unfortunately, when they arrived, they found that most Americans hated them. I hate to break it to you Ben, but you don't make sense.

 

[Benvolio]

The Irish did not hate the Americans, they came here to escape the British. Unfortunately, when they arrived, they found that most Americans hated them. I hate to break it to you Ben, but you don't make sense.

Americans were overwhelmingly English in ethnicity and culture at that point.

 

[palemale]

Americans were overwhelmingly English in ethnicity and culture at that point.

I get it. The Irish were to blame for the justifiable hatred the English and Anglo-Americans had for them. You remind me of something Israeli psychiatrist Zvi Rex once wrote: "The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz."

 

[palemale]

You are merely asserting what we have been debating, and I have challenged the persons asserting it to show that the Irish were considered "non white" in those words.

The belief in the Irish as sub-human and non-white (as we understand whiteness) can be found in the work of a famous and respected 19th Century English Anthropologist, John Beddoe. He was the president of the Royal Anthropological Institute. He wrote a number of books about race in the British Isles and developed an "Index of Nigrescence," by which he asserted the racial inferiority of the Irish, among others based on certain physical traits, like hair color. For example, dark hair is much more prevalent among the Irish than among Anglo-Saxons. Indeed, blonde hair is extremely rare among the Irish. This is an indication of their "Nigrescence."

As one book explained Beddoe's theory:

Speculating on the African genesis of what he called "Africanoid" Celts, Beddoe's index of nigrescence provided for racial hatred of the Irish as an inferior race."

https://books.google.com/books?id=E...ge&q=john beddoe Index of Nigrescence&f=false