marco rubio and Ted Cruz white hispanics

[Benvolio]

I get it. The Irish were to blame for the justifiable hatred the English and Anglo-Americans had for them. You remind me of something Israeli psychiatrist Zvi Rex once wrote: "The Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz."

Of course not. But your narrow, black and white world is wrong. Both the Irish and the English had prejudices accumulated over a long period of time.

 

[anglobritona]

Hispanic is an imaginary term irrelevant in how most spanish speakers feel

I have been exposed to black hispanics, white hispanics, mestizo hispanics who are racist with one another and feel no connection between them. It is irrelevant I am sure marcos rubio doesn't want immigrants, in fact I know many Americans of hispanic heritage who can't stand immigration!

 

[palemale]

Of course not. But your narrow, black and white world is wrong. Both the Irish and the English had prejudices accumulated over a long period of time.

I guess you missed my point entirely. Quite the contrary to your assertion, I do not see the world in black and white. I was trying to point out that notions of race have not remained static, but in fact have changed and morphed over time. The 19th Century idea that the Irish (or Jews or Italians), were not Caucasian or white is laughable today. Not only was it not laughable in the 19th Century, it had the imprimatur of science and was widely accepted and acted upon by government and individuals alike.

There was an episode in the late 19th Century where some Irish nuns brought a train load of Irish orphans from New York City to Arizona to be adopted by Mexican parents. The church wanted the children, who were Catholic, to be raised by Catholic parents. The Mexicans were Catholic. The good Christian Anglo citizens of Arizona were so outraged that these white children would be raised by dark skinned parents that the Irish children were kidnapped were taken from the Mexican parents by the police and turned over to white Protestant parents, or taken from the trains to be turned over to white, Protestant, parents. The nuns were nearly lynched. The nuns returned to NYC with some of the children they were able to rescue. The courts in Arizona approved this blatantly racist act, and the Supreme Court of the United States declined to take the case.

 

[Benvolio]

Ok

I guess you missed my point entirely. Quite the contrary to your assertion, I do not see the world in black and white. I was trying to point out that notions of race have not remained static, but in fact have changed and morphed over time. The 19th Century idea that the Irish (or Jews or Italians), were not Caucasian or white is laughable today. Not only was it not laughable in the 19th Century, it had the imprimatur of science and was widely accepted and acted upon by government and individuals alike.

There was an episode in the late 19th Century where some Irish nuns brought a train load of Irish orphans from New York City to Arizona to be adopted by Mexican parents. The church wanted the children, who were Catholic, to be raised by Catholic parents. The Mexicans were Catholic. The good Christian Anglo citizens of Arizona were so outraged that these white children would be raised by dark skinned parents that the Irish children were kidnapped were taken from the Mexican parents by the police and turned over to white Protestant parents, or taken from the trains to be turned over to white, Protestant, parents. The nuns were nearly lynched. The nuns returned to NYC with some of the children they were able to rescue. The courts in Arizona approved this blatantly racist act, and the Supreme Court of the United States declined to take the case.

Your example is contrary to your position. White people were upset that white Irish children were going to be raised by non white parents. If the Irish children had been considered nonwhite the whites would have had less objection. Whites objected because the Irish were white, although it was cultural and economic as well.
And you misunderstood my my comment. You assume that the Irish, getting off the boat, hating and resenting the English, and feeling oppressed by the English, did not see the American English in the same light. My point is that both sides harbored deep prejudices against the other.

 

[palemale]

Ok

Your example is contrary to your position. White people were upset that white Irish children were going to be raised by non white parents. If the Irish children had been considered nonwhite the whites would have had less objection. Whites objected because the Irish were white, although it was cultural and economic as well.
And you misunderstood my my comment. You assume that the Irish, getting off the boat, hating and resenting the English, and feeling oppressed by the English, did not see the American English in the same light. My point is that both sides harbored deep prejudices against the other.

I was wrong about the date. The Arizona orphan abductions took place in 1904, not in the 19th Century. The view of the Irish as non-white was less pronounced by that time.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/00/01/09/reviews/000109.09lassont.html

Now I understand your point. The English and Anglo-Americans hated the Irish and, therefore, systematically persecuted them and violated their most basic human rights. The Irish hated the English and Anglo-Americans who systematically persecuted them and violated their most basic rights. Therefore, both groups are equally culpable for the abuse the Irish suffered.

 

[Benvolio]

i did not say that. Again you are trying to squeeze the world into your black/white mold. If Irish suffered hardship, it must be entirely the fault of the English. No possibility of Irish contribution or exaggeration. No possibility that they were predisposed to feel oppressed by the English/Americans. No chance that Irish attitudes contributed to their seeming to be, sullen, slow or dishonest. No chance that their fondness for alcohol contributed. In the real world there is a lot of room for grey.
Have you heard the Irish songs of the rebellion? I like them, but they perfectly illustrate that self pity and the feeling of being persecuted are an important part of the Irish culture. The songs show that on some level, the Irish enjoy the feeling of being persecuted.

 

[palemale]

i did not say that. Again you are trying to squeeze the world into your black/white mold. If Irish suffered hardship, it must be entirely the fault of the English. No possibility of Irish contribution or exaggeration. No possibility that they were predisposed to feel oppressed by the English/Americans. No chance that Irish attitudes contributed to their seeming to be, sullen, slow or dishonest. No chance that their fondness for alcohol contributed. In the real world there is a lot of room for grey.
Have you heard the Irish songs of the rebellion? I like them, but they perfectly illustrate that self pity and the feeling of being persecuted are an important part of the Irish culture. The songs show that on some level, the Irish enjoy the feeling of being persecuted.

This is delusional thinking on a grand scale. Delusional and stupid. Tell me what is grey about the an English political system that caused more than 1 million Irish people starving to death? What is grey about selling thousands of people into slavery? What was grey about Cromwell's armies marching into a city and slaughtering tens of thousands of inhabitants? What was grey about American Protestant mobs marching into Irish neighborhoods and burning them down?

When the Irish rebelled, what was grey about terrorizing a people, and torturing them and killing them? What was grey about England bombarding Dublin and destroying nearly half of the city?

 

[Benvolio]

This is delusional thinking on a grand scale. Delusional and stupid. Tell me what is grey about the an English political system that caused more than 1 million Irish people starving to death? What is grey about selling thousands of people into slavery? What was grey about Cromwell's armies marching into a city and slaughtering tens of thousands of inhabitants? What was grey about American Protestant mobs marching into Irish neighborhoods and burning them down?

When the Irish rebelled, what was grey about terrorizing a people, and torturing them and killing them? What was grey about England bombarding Dublin and destroying nearly half of the city?

There. You see? You are equating the English of England with the English of America. I talk about Irish and English relations is the US and you dredge up the history in old England. And, in that, you are not wrong. But, it defeats your claim that when the Irish came to the US they harbored no resentment and hatred of the English in America. Even you, now, cannot separate the two, how could the Irish just off the boat? My point throughout this thread is that has been that the Irish, off the boat in the US ,and the English Americans, held the same prejudices and hatreds that had prevailed in the old countries.

 

[chrisrobin]

I should point out that the Irish themselves often speak of the "Irish Race". Here, for examplehttp://www.amazon.com/Story-Irish-Cosimo-Classics-History/dp/1596050632

You must be thinking of the "Irish Sweepstakes."

 

[palemale]

There. You see? You are equating the English of England with the English of America. I talk about Irish and English relations is the US and you dredge up the history in old England. And, in that, you are not wrong. But, it defeats your claim that when the Irish came to the US they harbored no resentment and hatred of the English in America. Even you, now, cannot separate the two, how could the Irish just off the boat? My point throughout this thread is that has been that the Irish, off the boat in the US ,and the English Americans, held the same prejudices and hatreds that had prevailed in the old countries.

I was referencing both. You seem to be suggesting that the Irish deserved the oppression they encountered when they came to the United States because they hated the English, or that they deserved some blame for it. The real tragedy of the early years of Irish immigration, and the point of works like "How the Irish became White," is that the Irish quickly learned that the only way for them to get ahead was to adopt the racism and white supremacist attitudes of the American public and government.

 

[Benvolio]

I was referencing both. You seem to be suggesting that the Irish deserved the oppression they encountered when they came to the United States because they hated the English, or that they deserved some blame for it. The real tragedy of the early years of Irish immigration, and the point of works like "How the Irish became White," is that the Irish quickly learned that the only way for them to get ahead was to adopt the racism and white supremacist attitudes of the American public and government.

Again with the black and white. You want the Americans to be all bad, and the Immigrants all victim. Both sides started with hostile prejudices which contributed to the problems, including exaggeration.