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Nature vs. Nurture

NotHardUp1

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That phrase has been raised a few times in the discussion of homosexuality and its origins, but this isn't about that.

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As I was watching Firing Line with Margaret Hoover, the episode featured Leopoldo Lopez, an opposition leader in exile from Venezuela. Admittedly, I was at first smitten by his handsome face, but lingering only a few moments revealed him to be a remarkable man, were he to be as homely as Henry Kissinger.


Unsurprisingly, he is the scion of a powerful aristocratic family, a direct descendant of Venezuela's first president, and another in his direct line was Simon Bolivar's sister. Were he a poodle, he'd have a very fine pedigree indeed.




Reading further, I found it predictable that he was schooled in the U.S., graduating from Kenyon College and taking a master's degree from Harvard.

He founded a political party in his home country, and co-founded another. His drive to overturn the corrupt government there led to his eventual arrest as an opposition figure, on corruption charges that have been widely decried as bogus and pretexts for imprisoning him as a political threat. He eventually fled in 2020, wisely, while he was yet unassassinated.

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Barring such Machiavellian actions, I predict he will be president of Venezuela before he sees his 70th birthday. He is extremely intelligent, has worked in the oil industry and academia, and is well connected with powerful elite in the U.S. -- all that before his pedigree is considered.

So, is his destiny due more to his ancestry, or simply the wealth and privilege that lineage afforded him? He was able to attend private schools in the U.S. where he was enjoying crew teams and swim teams and a golden youth while his peers were literally hungry back home during the terrible shortages that beset Venezuela from stereotypical South American corrupt government.

I ask because I am not convinced mere access to the levers of power makes one destined to rule. Knowing one's ancestors were elite, that may lead to only a sense of entitlement, but it may also motivate the drive to achieve that is very evident in Mr. Lopez.

How much credit do you ascribe to nature -- whatever made Simon Bolivar great and made his other ancestor the first president, and what do you ascribe to his nurture -- the privliges of wealth that gave him a stellar education, as well as the U.S. interests backing him for economic and political ends?

And, do you have any other examples of nurture vs. nature you'd like to toss in the ring?
 
I do believe that there can be some biological or behavioural imperatives that are recurrent in different generations...but for the most part, it is nurture...growing up with a sense of self within generational accomplishments and often greater privilege as well as expectations.
 
Nature comes before nurture and determines what is to be nurtured, it is why all siblings are not exactly alike even though they receive the same genes from each parent. No doubt all his advantages from ancestry to education played a large role and the fact that he was the last male in the line certainly helped. But he had to have some ambition in him for all that to be effective. If he had a brother the contrast might be insightful.

The best examples of this in other wealthy families should be one where the first born male is given all the advantages available yet it’s his younger brother who keeps the family tradition alive. The only example I can think of, and only because I read the book, is the Morgenthau family in which Henry the first made the family fortune and his son Henry the second kept the name in the news while he was FDR’s treasury secretary but Henry the third did not excel at that life and it was his younger brother Robert who kept the family name alive as Manhattan DA for 30+ yrs.

Perhaps weak leaders come from men who are thrust into power but have no taste for it. That would explain the rule of some disastrous Kings.
 
I see it as a combination of both nature and nurture. Toss being in the right place at the right time in to the ring as well.
 
I'd say that the temperament we are born with influences the extent of influence that nurture has on us, but only to a certain extent.
 
I do believe that there can be some biological or behavioural imperatives that are recurrent in different generations...but for the most part, it is nurture...growing up with a sense of self within generational accomplishments and often greater privilege as well as expectations.
If it were nurture then we would all be straight, having been brought up by straight parents in a straight world
 
If it were nurture then we would all be straight, having been brought up by straight parents in a straight world
Nurture is a bit more complex than what you describe. Such things as birth order, the closeness of a mother or father, diet, exposure to music and singing and other factures that we might not be aware of can have an impact doesn't show up in a person's life for years.
 
Nurture is a bit more complex than what you describe. Such things as birth order, the closeness of a mother or father, diet, exposure to music and singing and other factures that we might not be aware of can have an impact doesn't show up in a person's life for years.
I don't agree
If you are born completely straight then no influences are going to make you gay. Likewise if you are born gay then, no matter how hard you try, you can never be straight
 
I don't agree
If you are born completely straight then no influences are going to make you gay. Likewise if you are born gay then, no matter how hard you try, you can never be straight
We can't really make "absolute" statements, because don't have all of the pieces to the puzzle before us.
 
When I was in university in the early 1970s, this was a topic of discussion in my psychology classes. My guess is that it is still a discussion there a half-century later.

The truth is that there is no correct answer. If you believe it's 'nature', then it's nature over nurture. If you believe it's 'nurture', then it's nurture over nature. Until some geneticist discovers the 'nature' AND the 'nurture' gene, it will be opinion.
 
Most of us judge the nature vs. nurture issue based upon our own experience. I highly doubt any of us woke up one morning with an overwhelming urge to have sex of any kind with another male.

I count myself as "bi" but lean more gay. However my first erotic dream was about a blonde girl that was the same age as I was. When I was in a boy's residential school I was shocked and sickened by the things that I saw going on, I had no clue that guys could do or would do such acts with each other. Then I day I was sitting next to a friend of mine and couldn't take my eyes off of his body... the rest is history. I have always wondered if that school merely completed the "circuit" or "installed" it. It really doesn't matter I suppose, I am what I am.

I am sure that others new they liked the same sex at earlier ages, some much later. Life has mysteries and human sexuality might always be one of them.
 
I am sure that others new they liked the same sex at earlier ages, some much later. Life has mysteries and human sexuality might always be one of them.
I knew at 7 I liked boys' bodies and I have never had cause to change that
 
I was a homo from the age of four. And likely before...but 4 was the age I first registered that I found men more comforting and appealing.

Full stop.
 
^ I was about the same age, but fascinated by the men's underwear pages in the Sears and Eaton catalogues, wondering what was making those bulges.
 
If it were nurture then we would all be straight, having been brought up by straight parents in a straight world
But if it’s just nature wouldn’t we all be headonists?
 
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