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NSA data mining

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

In light of the brouhaha surrounding Snowden's disclosures, we now find them not as damaging near-term as was thought.

WASHINGTON — As the nation’s spy agencies assess the fallout from disclosures about their surveillance programs, some government analysts and senior officials have made a startling finding: the impact of a leaked terrorist plot by Al Qaeda in August has caused more immediate damage to American counterterrorism efforts than the thousands of classified documents disclosed by Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/us/qaeda-plot-leak-has-undermined-us-intelligence.html?hp&_r=0
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

tigerfan482 said:
And the FISA court announcement did not say that they didn't monitor or supervise the NSA. Their statement said they didn't have the resources to have someone at NSA all of the time verifying the implementation of their order 24/7/365, so they had to rely on the information given to it by the Executive Branch. If you take some time to think about it, that's what is true of ALL cases of enforcing court orders. The court doesn't send the judge or some legal assistant to watch someone complete community service - they rely on other people within the Department of Corrections to do that. They don't visit prison everyday to make sure someone they sentenced is there still - the Department of Corrections handles that.
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So you're claiming that the FISA court has personnel who are employed 24/7 to keep an eye on the NSA. Because that's what those lesser courts have -- probation officers and parole officers and community service supervisors and sheriffs' deputies who can (and often do) drop in without warning and no need of permission, to verify that conditions are being met.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Tiger, "we were just following orders" has never met the test of history to sort out right from wrong. The whole point is it doesn't matter if there is a law providing for this conduct. It matters that the law and any judicial review are needlessly opaque. It matters what the actual conduct of the government is and the degree to which it is intrusive.

Focussing on adjectives like "abusive" is your transparent way of trying to change the subject and distract from the real activity which must occur if we are to continue living in free countries: enhance public scrutiny of the ways in which governments obtain, collate, share and act upon our private communications as citizens.

I don't know why that kind of democratic oversight and control puts you into such a panic.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Kulindahr said:
I keep getting e-mail notifications of new posts in this thread, but they're never here.....
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I was having the same problem. I think it's fixed now.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

palbert said:
In light of the brouhaha surrounding Snowden's disclosures, we now find them not as damaging near-term as was thought.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/us/qaeda-plot-leak-has-undermined-us-intelligence.html?hp&_r=0
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What a misleading quote from a misleading article. Of course the exposure of methods used to detect terrorist plots in Yemen that are about to happen will have a much more IMMEDIATE effect than details of the larger intelligence apparatus that don't necessarily reveal specific targets. The rest of the article past the first paragraph describes this in more detail if you would like some.

Kulindahr said:
So if I have a half rack of beer every night to go with my platter of cocaine-marijuana brownies, there's no abuse at all because my intent is to have fun?
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Your intent is to abuse the substances to the point you get the feeling of "having fun."

Kulindahr said:
So you're claiming that the FISA court has personnel who are employed 24/7 to keep an eye on the NSA. Because that's what those lesser courts have -- probation officers and parole officers and community service supervisors and sheriffs' deputies who can (and often do) drop in without warning and no need of permission, to verify that conditions are being met.
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No. I'm actually claiming the opposite. Since the local constabulary, parole officers, prison officials, community service supervisors, etc. are managed by the executive of the local governing body and NOT the courts, it is logical to conclude that the courts do not employ or directly manage the people who are charged with enforcing their orders.

bankside said:
Tiger, "we were just following orders" has never met the test of history to sort out right from wrong. The whole point is it doesn't matter if there is a law providing for this conduct. It matters that the law and any judicial review are needlessly opaque. It matters what the actual conduct of the government is and the degree to which it is intrusive.

Focussing on adjectives like "abusive" is your transparent way of trying to change the subject and distract from the real activity which must occur if we are to continue living in free countries: enhance public scrutiny of the ways in which governments obtain, collate, share and act upon our private communications as citizens.

I don't know why that kind of democratic oversight and control puts you into such a panic.
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It does matter if there is a law because the law is what allows and disallows what actions our government can take. Just because you feel the law isn't valid or doesn't live up to your particular expectations of transparency doesn't make it any less legitimate. This same argument is being made by Republicans now on the ACA. Congress passes laws and the President signs them. Until/unless the judiciary, up to the Supreme Court, rules the law unconstitutional or until it is changed/repealed/replaced by the same process used to pass the law, it is the law of the land and it is how the government is directed to operate. And honestly, your insight into the interpretations of the law aren't necessarily relevant because the law deals with how the government is to conduct itself in specific intelligence matters. There is no purpose served in informing you of every interpretation of the law because it does not apply to you and would do nothing more than satisfy a curiosity you have of the unknown.

And my focus on abusive is absolutely germane to this conversation because it's the abuse of the law that is illegal - not the proper implementation of the law. Public scrutiny doesn't need to occur on intelligence activities of the government. The public, in a representative form of government, votes for people who represent their beliefs. If you don't want to be spied on (which the government doesn't do), then you vote for someone who supports a platform of not spying on you. You don't need the details of every act of spying the government has done to know whether or not to vote for someone who does or does not support that type of intelligence activity. That is the ONLY part of the process you are directly involved in. The implementation, governance, investigation, prosecution, compliance assurance, etc. are done by the legally appointed bodies and agencies and you have no active part in that.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

tigerfan482 said:
Your intent is to abuse the substances to the point you get the feeling of "having fun."
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game-crystal-ball-crystalball.gif
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

tigerfan482 said:
What a misleading quote from a misleading article. Of course the exposure of methods used to detect terrorist plots in Yemen that are about to happen will have a much more IMMEDIATE effect than details of the larger intelligence apparatus that don't necessarily reveal specific targets. The rest of the article past the first paragraph describes this in more detail if you would like some.
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Anent your reply, apparently the NYTimes Public Editor substantially agrees with you.

http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.c...able-headline-atop-a-questionable-article/?hp
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

The NSA is beginning to mount a coherent defense; not too much detail, but ...

N.S.A. Director Gives Firm and Broad Defense of Surveillance Efforts[<Link to NYTimes]

While offering a detailed defense of his agency’s work, General Alexander said the broader lesson of the controversy over disclosures of secret N.S.A. surveillance missions was that he and other top officials have to be more open in explaining the agency’s role, especially as it expands its mission into cyberoffense and cyberdefense.
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Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

palbert said:
The NSA is beginning to mount a coherent defense; not too much detail, but ...
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Nonetheless it's to be expected he'd defend his agency's work. I remain deeply skeptical and wary of what the NSA could become if unchecked and unsupervised, and it's the nature of the beast they try to keep those who are supposed to be watching them at arms length and continue as unimpeded as possible, as secretive and unaccountable as possible.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

There is clearly a coordinated public relations drive underway by the NSA, and GCHQ to improve their dented image.....I suspect nothing will change within these organisations, merely the appearance of change......perception is everything:D
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

kallipolis said:
There is clearly a coordinated public relations drive underway by the NSA, and GCHQ to improve their dented image.....I suspect nothing will change within these organisations, merely the appearance of change......perception is everything:D
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The forces of [STRIKE]good[/STRIKE] transparency will return to the fight when this silly House Republican brouhaha is over.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

palbert said:
The forces of [STRIKE]good[/STRIKE] transparency will return to the fight when this silly House Republican brouhaha is over.
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Three cheers for this...yet, I remain pessimistic that the powers that be, will impose much more effective scrutiny on these organisations.
 
Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

In today's news we find:

Report: NSA gathers millions of email address books
...
The collection happens with the help of foreign intelligence services and overseas telecommunications companies as the lists cross “major Internet switches,” according to the report.
...
According to a NSA presentation that described a typical daily intake, the agency gathered 444,743 address books from Yahoo, 105,068 from Hotmail, 82,857 from Facebook, 33,697 from Gmail and 22,881 from others.
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http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-v...millions-of-email-address-books#ixzz2hnEllDVr

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/14/nsa-contact-lists_n_4099147.html

Note the daily take.

The collection takes place outside the U.S. and thus appears not to violate current law.

Maybe NSA could provide "backups" and defray some operational cost.
 
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