The stereotypical Gay Man

[Thad1527]

Gay pride would be better served by 10 thousand well dressed gay guys walking down the street looking smart, professional and presentable.

Oh, that's happening, apparently, here in Philadelphia. Here's the cover photo and link to the story from this month's Philadelphia magazine about the gay presence now at the solid, Republican, respectable, Union League.

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/union-league-phillys-hottest-gay-club/

 

[ixthrock]

Being gay in a heteronormative society, growing up gay, coming out as gay, living as a closeted or out gay person in a heteronormative society are psychologically traumatic things. Psychologically traumatic things create pschological trauma. Like I said, we all - with less than 1% exceptions - start from the same place, with the same "psychological disorder", except it's one that many - I'd go as far as saying MOST - of us can overcome on their own, without medication or professional help.

As long as we accept it is there. I know nobody likes to think there's something wrong with them, but come on - you grew up knowing you were gay - how much easier THIS is to overcome than coming out?

But the most psychologically traumatic thing, for me, is being a weirdo. I'm reasonably well-adjusted despite that; I've come to love about myself the things that set me apart - even if it poses a challenge to nearly everyone else - whether or not they are gay or straight. I'm okay with being wrong or fukdup, especially in regard to specific issues, because it firmly entrenches me in the human experience - which is right where I most desire to be, rather than alienated from it. That is something I think nearly everyone else has a difficult time with. To use an example being discussed here, I'll keep discussing internalized homophobia. xbuzzerx says an accusation of it

...is an implication that your thought process or your reasoning or your personal viewpoint has been co-opted by what's ultimately some kind of psychological disorder or self esteem issue. It robs agency from the person under accusation...

yep. I'm fukdup like that, i'll own it. I can look at the big red chevy truck i drive, and say, "see, there's a perfect example of me striving for 'str8-acting' heteronormativity," but then the problem is where to go from there - is there really something so wrong with me that needs fixing? Am I supposed to sell my truck and buy a Prius? How far does an acceptance of my internalized homophobia get me? Just a realization of my participation in the Human Experience - which I already knew. Sometimes I even joke about "externalizing my internalized homophobia" when I get tired of banging my head against the Great Gay Conversation and say things in desperation like "I hate faggots." But it's not my internalized homophobia (or the outward expression of it ) that causes me difficulty in relating to my fellow gay men. It's the fact that I'm a weirdo - a weirdness that runs deeper than my attraction to men, a weirdness that not only seperates me from my "opposites," the guys that do NOT see other guys as potential romantic connections, but that seperates me also from the guys that do, the guys that are on the most fundamental (you claim) level, my peers.

 

[rareboy]

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet.

It is like they knew what I was thinking.

 

[Benjoe]

As for internalized homophobia.

I have never gotten why everyone gets so offended by being told they suffer from it. It's a subconscious thing, not a conscious choice you have to defend or feel guilty about. every gay guy in the history since people first started defining themselves by sexuality, has suffered from one degree or another of internalized homophobia! It is unavoidable. It is simply a product of growing up in a heteronormative world. When you "know" that being straight is "right", obviously being gay must be "wrong", right? We ALL had that, and many of us got over it, but internalized homophobia goes way deeper, and is often much more subtle. Many people get rid of it, but many others never do. And yes, striving desperately to be "just one of the guys" and "just like straight people" is an indication of internalized homophobia.

Not your fault, so you shouldn't be defensive about it. But the first step in fixing a problem is admitting there is one.

When I read this my first thoughts were what a load of psycho babble. Then I started to get angry because I felt in some way it almost gives credibility to that old and thankfully repealed medical opinion that homosexuality is a mental illness. But then I realised it's not saying that homosexuality is a problem, but our experiences of coming to terms with it, societies views and then accepting it can be a negative experience and shape how we see being gay. So it was bugging me and so I started to think more about it, could I possibly have internalised homophobia to some degree? And actually I honestly don't know how anyone couldn't have given my experiences, it's got me thinking and whilst I feel I have come to terms with my sexuality for some time now we are all a product of our own experiences and I have to admit i've not always felt so positive about being gay.

I started to think back to when I was growing up and at school (i'm 35 now) and when I was a teen at school everything was 'gay this' gay that', your gay, no you. All the time, gay was the standard negative response to absolutely anything. I don't know if it's still like that today or if it's ever been like that in America but in my school in England it was never ending.

To make matters worse at the time in England we had this truly horrendous law called Section 28, it basically meant in a nutshell that it was illegal for any teacher, school or local authority to promote, discuss or portray a homosexual lifestyle in a positive way. So basically when given sex education lessons as part of the science curriculum teachers had to promote a heterosexual man and woman relationship, and whilst they explained to us that some people were gay they weren't by law allowed to say it's ok to be gay.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I understand the concept of internalized homophobia and I realize that it is something that, like prejudice, everyone has or struggles with to some greater or lesser degree.

What I don't like in this thread, and as a sentiment commonly expressed in the gay community in general, is "if your view doesn't fit mine... it's because you aren't as evolved, and haven't gotten as past your internalized homophobia." I fundamentally reject the notion that we're all ever going to completely agree on virtually everything, and the reason we don't isn't going to be "because the person disagreeing hates himself for being gay."

 

[Rolyo85]

When I read this my first thoughts were what a load of psycho babble. Then I started to get angry because I felt in some way it almost gives credibility to that old and thankfully repealed medical opinion that homosexuality is a mental illness. But then I realised it's not saying that homosexuality is a problem, but our experiences of coming to terms with it, societies views and then accepting it can be a negative experience and shape how we see being gay. So it was bugging me and so I started to think more about it, could I possibly have internalised homophobia to some degree? And actually I honestly don't know how anyone couldn't have given my experiences, it's got me thinking and whilst I feel I have come to terms with my sexuality for some time now we are all a product of our own experiences and I have to admit i've not always felt so positive about being gay.

I started to think back to when I was growing up and at school (i'm 35 now) and when I was a teen at school everything was 'gay this' gay that', your gay, no you. All the time, gay was the standard negative response to absolutely anything. I don't know if it's still like that today or if it's ever been like that in America but in my school in England it was never ending.

To make matters worse at the time in England we had this truly horrendous law called Section 28, it basically meant in a nutshell that it was illegal for any teacher, school or local authority to promote, discuss or portray a homosexual lifestyle in a positive way. So basically when given sex education lessons as part of the science curriculum teachers had to promote a heterosexual man and woman relationship, and whilst they explained to us that some people were gay they weren't by law allowed to say it's ok to be gay.

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality. Internalized homophobia is the societal delusion that there is, put into our programming.

An example with me. I consider myself to be more or less rid of it, as far as I can tell (and as the captain of the USS Overanalyzer, I dare say I have a good grasp of the way my mind works). I have no particular preference for "straight acting" guys, or any negative feelings for femmes (in fact, I find them hot). I'm a top, but I do enjoy bottoming when the mood strikes, and it makes me feel not the least bit less manly. I am completely out and I dare anyone to have a problem with me being gay. I remember the last time I ever answered with "No" when someone asked me right out just before I came out, and it's a constant reminder of a life I could never go back to. To just name a few basic, stereotypical examples.

However, English is not my native language, and I find myself having serious problem discussing sexual/gay things in Bulgarian. Not because I lack the vocabulary (though I did learn all this stuff in the US, so to some small degree I do lack it), but because there is a barrier in my head that just makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable doing it. I was never out when I lived back there, and so speaking about it in Bulgarian makes me feel vulnerable. This is internalized homophobia. It's fear and discomfort at teh gay, even if in a very specified terms.

Weirdly, I don't seem to be the only one. Last month I stumbled upon another Bulgarian on Grindr. We were chatting in English before realizing we were both from the same country, yet somehow neither of us was willing to switch to Bulgarian once we figured it out...

 

[Rolyo85]

I understand the concept of internalized homophobia and I realize that it is something that, like prejudice, everyone has or struggles with to some greater or lesser degree.

What I don't like in this thread, and as a sentiment commonly expressed in the gay community in general, is "if your view doesn't fit mine... it's because you aren't as evolved, and haven't gotten as past your internalized homophobia." I fundamentally reject the notion that we're all ever going to completely agree on virtually everything, and the reason we don't isn't going to be "because the person disagreeing hates himself for being gay."

Don't go chance on me please It's not about "not agreeing".

In fact, internalized homophobia is quite easy to spot. Especially if you hang around Coming Out & Relationships. It's almost kinda funny how stereotypical and formulaic the claims are. It's all patterns of thought - the easiest one to get into to shield yourself from your gayness. Most of those aren't even conscious. But they are very - VERY - repetitive and easy to recognize. Sure, it's not always the case. But usually it is, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Don't go chance on me please It's not about "not agreeing".

In fact, internalized homophobia is quite easy to spot. Especially if you hang around Coming Out & Relationships. It's almost kinda funny how stereotypical and formulaic the claims are. It's all patterns of thought - the easiest one to get into to shield yourself from your gayness. Most of those aren't even conscious. But they are very - VERY - repetitive and easy to recognize. Sure, it's not always the case. But usually it is, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't deny it's there but once you exclude one poster who did a drive-by in this thread do you think rampant homophobia has driven the responses here?

Question mark is sincere.

 

[eastofeden]

I understand the concept of internalized homophobia and I realize that it is something that, like prejudice, everyone has or struggles with to some greater or lesser degree.

What I don't like in this thread, and as a sentiment commonly expressed in the gay community in general, is "if your view doesn't fit mine... it's because you aren't as evolved, and haven't gotten as past your internalized homophobia." I fundamentally reject the notion that we're all ever going to completely agree on virtually everything, and the reason we don't isn't going to be "because the person disagreeing hates himself for being gay."

^^^THIS^^^

I reject anyone defining me so I am always going to be at odds with anyone who tries...whether that be the church...straight bigots...or other gay people. I frequently am out of step with people around me and I let alot of it go because I know who I am but sometimes when people want to push further and it becomes personal and if they act as if their opinion is some kind of truth it is very annoying.

 

[Rolyo85]

I don't deny it's there but once you exclude one poster who did a drive-by in this thread do you think rampant homophobia has driven the responses here?

Question mark is sincere.

I don't think there are homophobes here. Homophobia is very rare among gay people. Homophobia and internalized homophobia have very little in common. The former hates gay people because they are gay. The latter is ultimately self-hatred that expresses itself in many different, often subtle ways. Even after years, it can persist. We can change the word "hatred" with "slight discomfort" but it will still be there, even in people who have been out for decades (especially among them, actually, since they grew up and came out in much more gay-unfriendly times). So yes, I do think some of the opinions here are driven by internalized homophobia, though I do not intend to imply that any of the people expressing them are somehow damaged. Like you said, internalized homophobia is no different from prejudice, and we all have those.

 

[Benjoe]

I don't deny it's there but once you exclude one poster who did a drive-by in this thread do you think rampant homophobia has driven the responses here?

Question mark is sincere.

I think the point Rolyo is trying to make is that internalised homophobia affects how we see ourselves, how we feel about our own sexuality and that despite the sentiment that we may feel we are comfortable and happy with our sexuality now we have still had negative thoughts and feelings about being gay at certain times that have to some degree affected how we behave today in certain situations.

I don't think internalised homophobia necessarily means we are all going to hate ourselves and each other and mean we are all going to start flaming each other. It's more subtle than that and is internal not external.

 

[Rolyo85]

^^^THIS^^^

I reject anyone defining me so I am always going to be at odds with anyone who tries...whether that be the church...straight bigots...or other gay people. I frequently am out of step with people around me and I let alot of it go because I know who I am but sometimes when people want to push further and it becomes personal and if they act as if their opinion is some kind of truth it is very annoying.

Do you want me to explain to you how all of that is because you are gay?

 

[Rex]

I see a lot of gay men who try and break the stereotype but it seems so unauthentic. You can easily tell which are being themselves and which are trying to put on an act. There are naturally masculine guys and naturally feminine, but the ones who are feminine, or try to portray themselves that way by growing facial hair, how they dress, etc. but still are basically women with beards just look ridiculous to me. I'd be more attracted to a feminine guy being themselves and working with what they have than a queen who is trying to be "straight acting" any day.

 

[Rolyo85]

I think the point Rolyo is trying to make is that internalised homophobia affects how we see ourselves, how we feel about our own sexuality and that despite the sentiment that we may feel we are comfortable and happy with our sexuality now we have still had negative thoughts and feelings about being gay at certain times that have to some degree affected how we behave today in certain situations.

I don't think internalised homophobia necessarily means we are all going to hate ourselves and each other and mean we are all going to start flaming each other. It's more subtle than that and is internal not external.

Thank you, that IS what I meant. Which is why I said you could replace "hate" with "discomfort". It's not an aggressive emotion, it's just a little worm gnawing from the inside.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I think the point Rolyo is trying to make is that internalised homophobia affects how we see ourselves, how we feel about our own sexuality and that despite the sentiment that we may feel we are comfortable and happy with our sexuality now we have still had negative thoughts and feelings about being gay at certain times that have to some degree affected how we behave today in certain situations.

I don't think internalised homophobia necessarily means we are all going to hate ourselves and each other and mean we are all going to start flaming each other. It's more subtle than that and is internal not external.

Of course it does. But it affects all of us.

Therefore saying "MY view embraces my identity in the correct way-- yours is because you still hate yourself more" is incredibly dubious.

Let's be clear, a loud and take-no-prisoners approach to embracing one's sexuality is every bit as much a personal reaction to internalized homophobia as a more muted response would be. The differences in how one chooses to cope are going to be incredibly subjective, contextual, based on background, personality type, psychological considerations, even degree of shyness. Not based on well obviously one guy got over being gay and the other didn't. What an incredibly reductionist viewpoint.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

 

[eastofeden]

Do you want me to explain to you how all of that is because you are gay?

Nice try...but it is more along the lines of having to learn to survive my parents.

 

[Rolyo85]

I see a lot of gay men who try and break the stereotype but it seems so unauthentic. You can easily tell which are being themselves and which are trying to put on an act. There are naturally masculine guys and naturally feminine, but the ones who are feminine, or try to portray themselves that way by growing facial hair, how they dress, etc. but still are basically women with beards just look ridiculous to me. I'd be more attracted to a feminine guy being themselves and working with what they have than a queen who is trying to be "straight acting" any day.

Yeah, feminine guys who grow facial hair are "women with beards". Because being femme makes you a woman. Welcome to the fifth century. We have candy -_-

 

[Rolyo85]

Of course it does. But it affects all of us.

Therefore saying "MY view embraces my identity in the correct way-- yours is because you still hate yourself more" is incredibly dubious.

Let's be clear, a loud and take-no-prisoners approach to embracing one's sexuality is every bit as much a personal reaction to internalized homophobia as a more muted response would be. The differences in how one chooses to cope are going to be incredibly subjective, contextual, based on background, personality type, psychological considerations, even degree of shyness. Not based on well obviously one guy got over being gay and the other didn't. What an incredibly reductionist viewpoint.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

Well, that mostly boils down to the confidence of the accuser. Do I - the accuser - have the confidence of being able to "read" a person well enough to say whether what their stance on certain issues is, is based on internalized homophobia, or simply on their personality? I - the accuser - have TONS of confidence in this issue. The beauty of it is that it is equally impossible to be proven wrong, as it is for me to prove myself right ^_^ So all we can hope for is a discussion and someone to think "hey... I do that..." I don't win anything from this, but somebody else might.

The truth about it is - as I think I mentioned to you on FB - that there ARE people who simply don't consider being gay a big deal. They grew up with it, it's part of who they are, they have no problem with it and don't pay much attention to it. Though that's an alien life for me, I accept its existence. However, same as with real bisexual men - ALL of those are suspect due to the rampant self-hatred in the gay community (and it IS rampant). Yeah, some of them are for real, but so many are just hiding behind false claims to explain away the gay, that even those who aren't, are suspect. Tough life.

 

[freefall]

Addressing the whole issue: remember the aim of our movement. We're looking for equality in everything. We, along with the other GLBT members, demand to be treated the same as straight people. We demand our human rights be valued the same. We do not request to be higher than others. So why should we be so special because we're gay? We may be different and unique but that doesn't make us more superior to be deeming ourselves 'more than average'.

Now @Roly: maybe you don't know, but internalised homophobia has a wide range and thus is wider than just 'striving to be like straight people'. Because if that's the definition, how do you explain politicians and priests/bishops who are anti-gay but turns out engaging in secretive gay backdoor activities or molesting vulnerable gay people (especially adolescences)?
Passing an extent, internalised homophobia has several characteristics of outforward homophobia, in which people who are gay actually despise themselves as being gay and thus promotes anti-gay behaviours/activities to suppress themselves, and these gay people are actually very prevalent in the community.

 

[Rolyo85]

I don't know why you addressed me with that post. I have never claimed internalized homophobia was about "striving to be like straight people".