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To No A Veil

BlackWolf said:
lol, if we did this in America, you and everyone else on this board (except Harke) would be screaming up and down shit creek.
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Actually, my post was a bit muddled. I should have said "had it been France"

Anyhow...

If it happened in the US, then US laws and standards would have applied. In France, French law and standards, In the UK, where it happened ;), English laws and standards....

And BTW, the OP was about "employment", nothing to do with citizenship. Why the tangent? :confused:
 
tbonez said:
Actually, my post was a bit muddled. I should have said "had it been France"

Anyhow...

If it happened in the US, then US laws and standards would have applied. In France, French law and standards, In the UK, where it happened ;), English laws and standards....

And BTW, the OP was about "employment", nothing to do with citizenship. Why the tangent? :confused:
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lol, notice the date of the threads OP

greaves suddenly resurected this thread with a new link.
 
tbonez said:
You missed the issue.

My last post should have read "sovereign" not "soviern". Don't know where that came from...Got to lay off the pipe! #-o
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No, I didn't miss the issue; I'm just figuring that the law should apply fairly across the board and not when it's convenient. The woman was practicing her religion, which is a protected freedom according to snippet of the French constitution that you yourself have quoted. The only reason given for her rejection was not because she was a terrorist or had some sort of criminal or even sordid past, but because she followed a particular philosophy.

I respect that France can reject anyone for any reason, but rejecting the wife of a citizen and mother of French children just because she had a jerk husband is a bit much...

RG
 
Harke the Heretic said:
Why did the Frenchman of North-African descent want to marry a Moroccan woman in the first place, instead of the far more obvious choice of a French woman of North-African descent? Or even a française...

I don't know, but I can guess.

North-African men in Europe often marry uneducated women from their home country, because even the women in their own minority aren't good enough for them, that is to say aren't as easy to push around.
Up until fairly recently this meant the import of women who couldn't even write Arabic - let alone French.
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Why does it matter?
 
Two + years at JUB and I just put my first person on "ignore".

Too much board scat for me.
 
BlackWolf said:
Lets see if it's me?

Is it me?
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No puddin' It's not. Why would I :confused:??

I don't mind people who strongly disagree with me. I don't mind people who mind me. I don't mind....almost anything actually.

Lobotomised bigots I do mind very much! Not that I like clevar bigots, but they usually don't make me want to hurl.
 
Ahhh, I know who you ignored now.

And I do strongly disagree with you a lot, but you are still one of my favorite Jubbers. Your not afraid to tell it like it is...from your point of view.
 
Boy this thread would depress an angel. Sigh.

this thread has been artificially kept alive by one man's grudge for far too long

i find it offensive
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And that was a year ago.

You know Greaves, it must just be terrible to have to live in a toxic shithole of bigotry, fearmongering,ignorance and hate every day of one's life.
 
Can't find out anything recent about Aishah Azmi, the young lady who prompted this thread way back on 2006.

Wonder what she is doing now...

But did come across this very revealing BBC News interview:

 
RobinGoodfellow said:
Obviously silly question: This woman is being denied citizenship by practicing her religion. Isn't that right guaranteed by the French constitution? It is in the section that keeps getting quoted here...

RG
Click to expand...

I will try to explain this because it is frequently a misunderstanding that comes up among non-French people.

Freedom of religion in France consists of the government having no right to interfere with your PRIVATE worship or practicing of whatever religion to which you may adhere.

However, the prevalent system in France is called laïcité, which relies on the division between private life, where adherents believe religion belongs, and the public sphere, in which each individual, adherents believe, should appear as a simple citizen equal to all other citizens, devoid of ethnic, religious or other particularities.

Ergo, this woman, who obviously does not wish to conform to this principle, has shown herself unwilling or unable to integrate herself into French society as it is (as opposed to how she might like it to be) and therefore is not a suitable candidate for citizenship.
 
tbonez said:
No kidding! :rolleyes:

Geese Louise! Look... France has laws, FRENCH laws... Not American or English or Lower-Solbovian laws. Nothing arbitrary about it!

BTW, this happened in ENGLAND, not France!
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I am not referring to the OP, but rather a later post of a Times article which deals with a woman who was denied citizenship in France because she insisted upon wearing a niqāb, which goes against the French principle of laïcité. (See above post...)
 
rareboy said:
Boy this thread would depress an angel. Sigh.



And that was a year ago.

You know Greaves, it must just be terrible to have to live in a toxic shithole of bigotry, fearmongering,ignorance and hate every day of one's life.
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^"You know James Harding, it must be terrible to have to live in a toxic...etc"

Mr Harding is the Editor of the London "Times" which published the 2 original articles posted here by greaves in the last 2 days.

The "Times" welcomes comments on its articles:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/tools_and_services/services/contact_us/

"Don't Kill The Messanger." Sophocles
 
Chalchalero said:
I will try to explain this because it is frequently a misunderstanding that comes up among non-French people.
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Not hard to see why....

Freedom of religion in France consists of the government having no right to interfere with your PRIVATE worship or practicing of whatever religion to which you may adhere.
Click to expand...
But in PUBLIC you need to appear the same as everyone else? Gee, talk about Orwellian; that's not true freedom of religion by any stretch of the imagination....

Ergo, this woman, who obviously does not wish to conform to this principle, has shown herself unwilling or unable to integrate herself into French society as it is (as opposed to how she might like it to be) and therefore is not a suitable candidate for citizenship.
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Sorry, but this woman hasn't really had the chance in order to integrate into regular French society; she was kept isolated byher husband, and not even allowed out of the house. She is being punished for her husband's problem, and her husband is being let off the hook...

RG
 
RobinGoodfellow said:
Not hard to see why....


But in PUBLIC you need to appear the same as everyone else? Gee, talk about Orwellian; that's not true freedom of religion by any stretch of the imagination....


Sorry, but this woman hasn't really had the chance in order to integrate into regular French society; she was kept isolated byher husband, and not even allowed out of the house. She is being punished for her husband's problem, and her husband is being let off the hook...

RG
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You are still missing the issue here. The husband is already a French citizen. It was at her husband's request that she became a Salafist and began wearing the niqab. It was her decision to do this, not his. She was not Salafist or wearing that niqab when she married her husband.

The article states it as clearly as it can be stated.

The court decision denying Faiza Mabchour, 32, French citizenship has drawn approval from both Left and Right, highlighting a rejection of Muslim customs that conflict with the values of the secular French republic.

“The refusal of nationality is due to lack of integration,” said Mohammed Moussaoui, the president of the French Council of Muslims.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4347204.ece

You cannot demand citizenship of a country but then refuse to be a part of that country and its values. That would be the same as those Americans who resent immigrants who go to America but have no interest in learning English.

States are not obligated to grant citizenship, particularly if they believe the applicant is not conforming to what the state requires of its citizens.
 
Chalchalero said:
You are still missing the issue here. The husband is already a French citizen. It was at her husband's request that she became a Salafist and began wearing the niqab. It was her decision to do this, not his. She was not Salafist or wearing that niqab when she married her husband.
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Dude: Do you bother reading what you post? I mean, at all? AT HIS REQUEST, and DUE TO HER HUSBAND'S WISH she entered into a religion that required her to have limited integration with society. She was in love, and wanting to possibly escape from her life, and HER HUSBAND MADE A SPECIAL REQUIREMENT of her.

Yes, it was her decision. But she made her decision based on what her husband told her, and he should have known the situation. Because of her husband's decision, she isn't able to get citizenship. And her husband, who forced her to make that decision is getting off scot-free...

And I still don't see how you can say that France has freedom of religion when it is obviously persecuting someone for their religion and doesn't allow public expressions of religion...

RG
 
The General said:
I saw the news conference on TV this evening. A slit is one thing but you could barely see this womans eyes at all.

Britain isn't a Muslim country and although taking the veil is a matter of choice for the individual, there is simply no need for it here. Preserving modesty or "keep ones beauty to oneself" is all well and good but some are taking it to extremes. I'm getting the feeling it's a deliberate attempt to provoke and antagonise.

If it's such an issue for them then perhaps Britain isn't the right country to live in?
Click to expand...

yep to provoke and antagonise. I think its unfair when talking or listening to someone with their face covered.

I think its fair to get a book or a newspaper to block a veiled person from seeing you when talking to them.
 
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