What to do with illegal immigrant criminals in the U.S.?

[Stardreamer]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

provided they received a fair hearing and trial etc.,

And therein lies the rub. There is a due process requirement that requires an immigration judge ruling. That system was already taxed with the increase in deportations by the Obama administration, the Trump administration is overloading it.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

And therein lies the rub. There is a due process requirement that requires an immigration judge ruling. That system was already taxed with the increase in deportations by the Obama administration, the Trump administration is overloading it.

I really don't see what the Fascists and racists are whining about since it's been policy for years to put illegals in for profit prisons and park them there until someone gets around to hearing their case, and if some cash goes into the pockets of some cronies in the meantime, well, that's the American WAY!

 

[Benvolio]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

And therein lies the rub. There is a due process requirement that requires an immigration judge ruling. That system was already taxed with the increase in deportations by the Obama administration, the Trump administration is overloading it.

Look again. Evelyn was talking about those jailed for criminal offenses after a fair trial. People in the country illegally should not be allowed to delay deportation, but if they do, they should spend the delay in jail.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

No! I disagree. This is another of those things I feel should never be used for any reason: SLAVERY. Who would these people be working for, anyway?

My feelings about slavery are similar to those about torture; there is no circumstance that should ever allow it. Get that "foot in the door" and somebody will find a way to exploit and expand it. What would stop this permission of slavery (exacted upon "illegals") from expanding, via loopholes and/or precedent, into forms of human trafficking? Those who benefit from the slave labor would somehow want more and more "warm bodies" to show up for further exploitation. Where those who came illegally are held for hard labor, would these be for-profit outfits?

We already see similar scenarios happening in Arizona, which seems to love to feed more and more human capital into the for-profit prison monster.

Who would they be working for? Whatever state they were caught in. And they'd be working for the environment; invasive species can be quite destructive.

There would be no profit; it costs money to feed, clothe, and house people.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

Look again. Evelyn was talking about those jailed for criminal offenses after a fair trial. People in the country illegally should not be allowed to delay deportation, but if they do, they should spend the delay in jail.

And they should spend that jail time working.

Using jail inmates as heavy manual labor is common. Since illegals came here to work, let them do so.

Heck, if they then came legally, they could put that work experience on a resume -- I've seen it done by people who've been in jail, and it can be effective depending on what they did!

 

[Kabluey]

And they should spend that jail time working.

Using jail inmates as heavy manual labor is common. Since illegals came here to work, let them do so.

Heck, if they then came legally, they could put that work experience on a resume -- I've seen it done by people who've been in jail, and it can be effective depending on what they did!

I have a real issue with prison labour competing for contracts against private businesses.
Why should prison companies, with labour costs well below that of private companies, be able to compete?

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

I have a real issue with prison labour competing for contracts against private businesses.
Why should prison companies, with labour costs well below that of private companies, be able to compete?

We as a society SHOULD be paying for the people we put in prisons. Making forced labor available to prisons who are after profits is just as obscene as making profits off of sick and dying people - and if we all know we're going to have to pay, then maybe we'll be more inclined to keep an eye on what our justice system is doing. Let the jobs of the prisoners be learning a trade, or getting a GED.

Telling corporations or worse yet governments that they get to profit off of forced labor just gives an incentive to lock up people who they think will be good little slaves.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

I have a real issue with prison labour competing for contracts against private businesses.
Why should prison companies, with labour costs well below that of private companies, be able to compete?

What private company removes invasive species?

Besides which, private companies shouldn't be running prisons -- that's a ridiculous route unless you make them accountable to the relatives or friends of inmates, who should have standing to sue for poor treatment -- with a minimum $50k fine plus a $50k award plus legal expenses plus fixing the issue within fourteen days or pay another $50k fine and award.

 

[opinterph]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

put [undocumented immigrants] to work at manual labor without pay, and after three years then deport them.

No! I disagree. This is another of those things I feel should never be used for any reason: SLAVERY.

Yes, it is slavery. Apparently the requirement for documentation does not apply to persons working in the prison system.

As the federal government cracks down on immigrants in the country illegally and forbids businesses to hire them, it is relying on tens of thousands of those immigrants each year to provide essential labor — usually for $1 a day or less — at the detention centers where they are held when caught by the authorities.

Using Jailed Migrants as a Pool of Cheap Labor (New York Times; May 2014)

How Prison Labor is the New American Slavery and Most of Us Unknowingly Support it (Return to Now; June 2016)​

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

Yes, it is slavery. Apparently the requirement for documentation does not apply to persons working in the prison system.

How Prison Labor is the New American Slavery and Most of Us Unknowingly Support it (Return to Now; June 2016)​

Requiring labor of inmates has been common, if not standard, for most of our history. Not requiring them to do work to take care of the facilities where they are kept is a punishment on the American citizen and a reward to the prisoners, who would otherwise get free room and board with entertainment. That's exactly why ging to jail is no big deal for many criminals; in fact there's a surge in small crimes in winter in many places due to the fact that a criminal knows that if he commits a misdemeanor he will get free room and board, free TV, books to read, games to play -- a vacation from having to deal with life. Living in jail is a better standard than many criminals have on the outside!

Being behind bars isn't supposed to be a vacation, it's supposed to be a punishment and correctional. Requiring labor makes it both, so it is not only not slavery, it's the rational thing to do. The only problem is when outside companies are brought in -- that's immoral in the first place, and they should be required to pay the prevailing local wage for such labor or all be arrested for engaging in involuntary servitude.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

It is not slavery. They are just working to earn their keep, some in American prisons for the first time in their lives. A large percentage of Americans in prison are victims of the welfare system, growing up in single parent/welfare families in which working for a living seems unnecessary and uncool. The Constitution forbids involuntary servitude except as punishment for crime. Some are learning skills which may enable them to obtain jobs after release, so it is an important part of their rehabilitation.If the illegal invaders are not convicted of crime they should be.

 

[Kabluey]

It is not slavery. .... The Constitution forbids involuntary servitude except as .
..

Involuntary servitude at the best of times is challenging to differentiate from slavery.

 

[gsdx]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

It is not slavery. They are just working to earn their keep

Isn't that what slaves were doing? That and staying alive?

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

It is not slavery. They are just working to earn their keep, some in American prisons for the first time in their lives. A large percentage of Americans in prison are victims of the welfare system, growing up in single parent/welfare families in which working for a living seems unnecessary and uncool. The Constitution forbids involuntary servitude except as punishment for crime. Some are learning skills which may enable them to obtain jobs after release, so it is an important part of their rehabilitation.If the illegal invaders are not convicted of crime they should be.

If there's a private company making a profit from their labor, then it is most certainly slavery. The Constitution allows involuntary servitude as punishment; it does not say it can be done at a profit.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

Involuntary servitude at the best of times is challenging to differentiate from slavery.

If it's a punishment, then it's fine; if it's for a profit, it's slavery. Since the whole point of the prison system is supposed to be justice, profit should be excluded, as it is not just to make a profit off labor that is not voluntary.

 

[opinterph]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

Being behind bars isn't supposed to be a vacation, it's supposed to be a punishment and correctional. Requiring labor makes it both, so it is not only not slavery, it's the rational thing to do.

As the New York Times article I linked reveals …

Immigrants in holding centers may be in the country illegally, but they may also be asylum seekers, permanent residents or American citizens whose documentation is questioned by the authorities.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

As the New York Times article I linked reveals …

Ah. In that case, if they're released because they're in this country legally, they should get a check, at union rates, for the labor they did.

Among other remedies.

 

[Kabluey]

If it's a punishment, then it's fine; if it's for a profit, it's slavery. Since the whole point of the prison system is supposed to be justice, profit should be excluded, as it is not just to make a profit off labor that is not voluntary.

Agreed.
We're seeing private prison owners competing for contracts with private companies for all manner of things, even outbound calling for credit card offers...

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

Agreed.
We're seeing private prison owners competing for contracts with private companies for all manner of things, even outbound calling for credit card offers...

In a libertarian society I would have no problem with privately-run prisons, because they would be inspected and evaluated by the police companies contracting with them, insurance companies covering various aspects of their operations, and advocates for the prisoners. In the society we have, though, there is no significant oversight. If we're going to have private prisons, they should be subject to surprise inspections by any attorney representing family or friends of any prisoner, by the county and stat health departments where they are located, by Amnesty International, and by any other organization or party with some interest in the way the place is run -- for example, visiting chaplains for prisoners should have automatic standing to take them to court.

 

[offthewall14420]

"Don’t ever use the term ‘illegal immigrant.’
And I said, ‘Why?’
And he said, ‘Because once you label a people ‘illegal,’ that is exactly what the Nazis did to Jews.’ You do not label a people ‘illegal.’ They have committed an illegal act.
They are immigrants who crossed illegally.
They are immigrants who crossed without papers.
They are immigrants who crossed without permission.
They are living in this country without permission.
But they are not an illegal people.”