When Did America Stop Being Great ?

[Benvolio]

1/ We have the highest average wage of major countries.
Not sure about that, minimum wage people don't agree.
2/ We continue to be the leader in medical innovation.
Zero benefit for the poor, therefore kind of useless to them
3/ most areas of technological innovation.
Lots of countries are happy with their use of technology
4/

It doesn't matter if our bottom is better off than other parts of the world, because they are struggling and having trouble making ends meet here. It is completely irrelevant what they are compared to other places because it is a false equivalent.

What your are doing is being dishonest and trying to make it seem like things aren't as bad as they are for these people. It's intellectually lazy but it's not like I expect anything more from you.

No, poverty defined in terms of what is needed--as opposed to wanted--is not relative. There are countries where people do not consider cell phones a necessity of life. As for our poor,
who are they--legal or not? What do they not have? Food, clothes, place to live? Are they struggling to pay their cell phone bill? Auto payment? What is struggling here would be affluence in many countries. Strugging is always a question of what they want, not necessarily of what they need. It is easy to exaggerate poverty.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

It is also easy to be dishonest about it as you are doing now. Food, clothes and a place to live is simply not a "want", it is pretty much a necessity to able to survive and live in this world.

Phone and Cars are as well a necessity, unless there is public transportation, which can be expensive and not reliable. You need a phone to keep in contact with a place of work and other means as well. This things aren't simply wants or luxuries.

 

[Benvolio]

1/ We have the highest average wage of major countries.
Not sure about that, minimum wage people don't agree.
2/ We continue to be the leader in medical innovation.
Zero benefit for the poor, therefore kind of useless to them
3/ most areas of technological innovation.
Lots of countries are happy with their use of technology
4/

It is also easy to be dishonest about it as you are doing now. Food, clothes and a place to live is simply not a "want", it is pretty much a necessity to able to survive and live in this world.

Phone and Cars are as well a necessity, unless there is public transportation, which can be expensive and not reliable. You need a phone to keep in contact with a place of work and other means as well. This things aren't simply wants or luxuries.

Now you are being dishonest. You choose to exaggerate poverty so you exaggerate the neccessity of what would be luxuries elsewhere.

 

[luckynumbah7]

The ability to contact work and the ability to get to/from places isn't an exaggeration of necessities. Not even in poverty. When was the last time you meandered up from the cellar to check out current events?

 

[gsdx]

Phone and Cars are as well a necessity, unless there is public transportation, which can be expensive and not reliable. You need a phone to keep in contact with a place of work and other means as well. This things aren't simply wants or luxuries.

Yes, they are. We're just programmed (brainwashed if you will) to think that they're necessary.

When people fail to pay the mortgage on their home, but every member of the family has the latest cellphone incarnation, they believe they need the phones more than a roof over their heads.

I haven't owned a car for 32 years, and I've never owned a cellphone. I'm not one of the brainwashed.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Yes, they are. We're just programmed (brainwashed if you will) to think that they're necessary.

When people fail to pay the mortgage on their home, but every member of the family has the latest cellphone incarnation, they believe they need the phones more than a roof over their heads.

I haven't owned a car for 32 years, and I've never owned a cellphone. I'm not one of the brainwashed.

Before cellphones it was just the family phone. Before that it was party lines. Before the party lines I'd agree that a phone wouldn't be a necessity. Afterwards, if you want to have a roof and food, you'd better have some way for 'important people' (like work and job possibilities and for interviews) to call you. I don't drive and I'm under no illusions who gets hired. It usually isn't the dude who doesn't have transportation. And most places, to my knowledge in the usa, have shitty public transportation. Transportation, that thing that gets you to-and-from work, like the phone which is supposed to keep you in contact with work and possible work. Even with no minutes you need one for emergency services. Y'don't just need to do the job to get a job or keep it, unfortunately.

No one said buy the latest new cellphone in lieu of a house payment. False equivalence there.

And while you've never owned a cellphone I'm pretty sure there's a landline with your name on it somewhere.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I haven't owned a car for 32 years, and I've never owned a cellphone. I'm not one of the brainwashed.

Most educations in the first world require today assume access to computers and internet connections. Most jobs expect to have ways to reach you remotely. Even social media accounts are requirements for some jobs. And the everyday reality is going more in that direction... not less.

Saying that people having things like computers or cellphones is just wasteful frippery does, and will increasingly come off, as out of touch.

 

[Benvolio]

1/ We have the highest average wage of major countries.
Not sure about that, minimum wage people don't agree.
2/ We continue to be the leader in medical innovation.
Zero benefit for the poor, therefore kind of useless to them
3/ most areas of technological innovation.
Lots of countries are happy with their use of technology
4/

The ability to contact work and the ability to get to/from places isn't an exaggeration of necessities. Not even in poverty. When was the last time you meandered up from the cellar to check out current events?

Is there a welfare mother without a cell phone? Want to bet her teen age kids don't have them? To think humanity surveved war, famine, pestilence and fire for a million years without cell phones, but now it is a necessity--so other people have to work and give them cell phones. Any poor Americans without flat TVs? MicroWaves? What percent cook all their meals rather than fast food? Even health care is defined as the absence of insurance, rather than the absence of care.
You want poverty in America, so you have to refine poverty.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Is there a welfare mother without a cell phone? Want to bet her teen age kids don't have them? To think humanity surveved war, famine, pestilence and fire for a million years without cell phones, but now it is a necessity--so other people have to work and give them cell phones. Any poor Americans without flat TVs? MicroWaves? What percent cook all their meals rather than fast food? Even health care is defined as the absence of insurance, rather than the absence of care.
You want poverty in America, so you have to refine poverty.

Before cellphones were you lambasting the poor as being responsible for their own predicament by having a landline?

 

[luckynumbah7]

Before cellphones were you lambasting the poor as being responsible for their own predicament by having a landline?

You have to ask.

 

[Cormac135]

America's greatness and glory peaked some time in the 1980s and has been declining at an ever increasing rate since then. She will inevitably join all the other "great empires" of history in their fate of decline into decadence and insignificance and ultimately collapse. With only one remarkable difference: what took the other "great empires" centuries, America is accomplishing in mere decades.

 

[Benvolio]

I have predicted that after this election there will never be another non-democrat president. We will have a one-party fake democracy, going through the motions, but no choice. With it will come a socialist/communist economy. That is the plan.

 

[Benvolio]

1/ We have the highest average wage of major countries.
Not sure about that, minimum wage people don't agree.
2/ We continue to be the leader in medical innovation.
Zero benefit for the poor, therefore kind of useless to them
3/ most areas of technological innovation.
Lots of countries are happy with their use of technology
4/

Before cellphones were you lambasting the poor as being responsible for their own predicament by having a landline?

No one is lambasting the poor. We are trying to define poverty.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Yes, they are. We're just programmed (brainwashed if you will) to think that they're necessary.

When people fail to pay the mortgage on their home, but every member of the family has the latest cellphone incarnation, they believe they need the phones more than a roof over their heads.

I haven't owned a car for 32 years, and I've never owned a cellphone. I'm not one of the brainwashed.

Whether it is a cellphone or a landline it is most definitely more of a necessity. Again having access to contact your job or job opputunities. Also of course, emergencies, when one needs to call the Police, Ambulance, Your Doctor, etc.

Same with Cars, not every place has frequently ran public transportation. Some places, like where I live, I would be boned without a car. Plus the fact that this opens up more job opportunities and more availability to work, since we are talking about poor people here, I would say having that is very important.

 

[gsdx]

Before cellphones it was just the family phone. Before that it was party lines. Before the party lines I'd agree that a phone wouldn't be a necessity. Afterwards, if you want to have a roof and food, you'd better have some way for 'important people' (like work and job possibilities and for interviews) to call you.

I never said phones weren't necessary. I said that people are brainwashed to think that cellphones costing hundreds and hundreds of dollars and do everything except fold your underwear are necessary. They aren't. How often does the average person use a cellphone as a phone? My guess is that the percentage is in the low single digits.

I've got a landline, but that's all I need. No call display. No call-forwarding. No call blocking. Nothing except 6 speed-dial buttons.

Look at car commercials these days? The selling points are all the thousands of dollars worth of 'toys' they've got in them. They're not necessary. They're a costly luxury, and people are being convinced that they need them. They don't, but people believe they they do.

It pisses me off to walk down the street and be begged for spare change from someone sitting there with a paper cup in one hand and a cellphone in the other. If they can afford a cellphone and keep it operational, they don't need my money.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

You are assuming things I meant, considering you jumped the gun assuming I meant specifically cell phones and cars with these extra things in them.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Us Mobile's plan for tracfones has the minimum plan at 100 minutes, 100 texts & 100Mb for ten bucks. Tracfones are about as expensive, from what I can tell. Cell phones are also often 'gifts', in that they're part of a family plan. It's what the roomie's used for at least 8 years now, and I use his. Regardless, the bill is sent to Way the hell out-of-state since it's his parent's account and their phone plan had a deal. That doesn't mean he (or I) were suddenly livin' the high life during brief periods of up-in-the-air houselessness. That thirty bucks total is not gonna make that large a difference in whether someone is homeless.

I mean, come on. You can't even pawn the fuckers, they practically give them away these days. Tho figuring out call plans still stymies me. All I'm saying is that cell phones have replaced landlines and maintaining one isn't a sign or indication of wealth these days,

 

[gsdx]

You are assuming things I meant, considering you jumped the gun assuming I meant specifically cell phones and cars with these extra things in them.

And you assumed I meant all cars and all phones. Cars were not meant to be movie theatres and cellphones were not meant to be television sets and jukeboxes. All I'm saying is that people are being brainwashed into spending thousands of dollars on 'toys' they're being told that they need.

 

[Kabluey]

The graph showing that the bottom 10% of Americans are doing better than the top 10% of Italians...
I read the OECD report it's based on. It uses a mixture of hard numbers and subjective 'feel' ratings interchangeably. And allows respondents to say how important they think each is.
For the USA, the hard numbers tend to be ranked lower than the satisfaction ones.

This allows community engagement, social engagement, satisfaction with water, civic engagement and life satisfaction to rank alongside and often outweigh objective measures like air pollution and life expectancy.

The income section uses averages, meaning extreme incomes skew the average up.

Participation rates for education are up, but measured skills attained are in the middle.

Life expectancy is below average, but self-reported health is almost the highest.
Feeling safe at night rating is middling, but homicide rates are almost the worst.

The child poverty section places US children predominantly in the bottom third of the OECD by most measures.

 

[Benvolio]

It is significant that the US bottom 10% "self reported health is almost the highest", notwithstanding the lack of actual socialized medicine.