Where are the men?

[andy12]

Over a year ago, I had my very first boyfriend. It look a long time: I never really felt as effeminate as the gays I always saw, I was also busy with other life matters, couldn't get over a guy, etc. Anyways, he looked androgynous and was effeminate, a very good-looking combination. As it turned out, I had zero problems with accepting his effeminacy. We held hands everywhere; it was more than obvious that we were a couple. We even made out in public. It felt sort of revolutionary.

However, it felt like having a girlfriend. He'd want to fix his hair for an hour before going out. He only wanted to go to dinner or shopping. The way he thought reminded me of my mother. He wanted to talk about feelings in that emotional crazy way.

I'm physically attracted to women. Lesbian porn (no dicks) can be pretty hot. However, I'm not into the whole straight mating dance. It looks degrading when men try to impress women. I don't want kids, I don't need to split the bills with anyone, and I can cook and clean just fine. So heterosexuality has nothing to offer me. I feel like a 12-year-old boy around women as well. I don't know what to say and I can't feign interest for long in whatever they want to talk about. That Whole Thing (TM) is not for me.

I want somebody like me. A guy who likes guy stuff. I want a man in bed for the same reason I want a man to toss a football with. A want to fuck men for the same reason boys play with guns and legos. So it's definitely not just sex, it's an integral part of me. It sure doesn't feel like just a sexual orientation. Why shouldn't I like what I am?

But I haven't seen that anywhere. What passes for masculine among gay guys is a mimicry of masculine, a sort of cargo cult that doesn't understand the essence of what it deifies. Whether it's leather or just guys who aren't as effeminate, it seems like fake dress up.

Take Johnny Weir who says this about figure skating: "masculinity is what you believe it to be." When gay guys tell me that they don't want to go kayaking or outdoors because of the icky bugs then no, sorry, you're not masculine. And that's not to say masculine is better! (I can understand the resentment: There's plenty of gay men who haven't come to terms with their own effeminacy who bash on the nelly folk.) So I believe masculinity and femininity are neutral but distinguishable traits like eye color. If you want to gay it up, go for it. I'm not one of those "You drag queens are making it hard for me to be accepted!" people. Everyone has a right to be who they are without being made to feel worthless. (Unfortunately, I think our society values men above women so even effeminate men want some of that masculinity.)

I asked my boyfriend why he didn't like women. He sure loved hanging around them. He could talk to them easily without any awkwardness. The answer: "Ewww, I'd feel like a lesbian." And that's really it: gay men seem to be women. Pretty much all the gays I've met confirm to the stereotypes. Not everyone is the same kind of effeminate, but some variant exists in all the men I've seen. Online, it's pretty much the same thing. I've asked friends, gay or straight. They don't know anyone either. Now, I'm not looking for a date: just someone like me to know I'm not the only one.

I don't feel gay. I've always felt this way, even though I couldn't articulate it. Around puberty when I noticed other guys fawning over women, despite my attractions to women, I never understood how liking effeminate could be masculine. I like men because I'm a man. I'm a genuine homo.

So where are the others like me?

 

[altlover85]

I think most people have a blend of feminine and masculine traits.

If you found the perfect guy, but he happened to like shopping, would it really be the end of the world? Your bf is always going to like to do things that you don't like to do.

You seem like a smart man. I think you should try and be just a little more open-minded and not draw such a line about masculinity and femininity.

I have a feeling that if we went through your hobbies, we could find something that's not totally masculine. For example, Gore Vidal isn't a paragon of masculinity but you still have an admiration for him I would assume. I know that's not the same as wanting to date him, but there have to be some feminine traits that you could live with in an otherwise masculine guy.

 

[hylas]

( deleted )

 

[Corny]

^ yeah. it is difficult to reply to this thread and stay civil.

you insult pretty much everyone with your post.

there are a lot of masculine gay men out there. many of them maybe more "masculine" than i would see you know.

sadly there are also a few out there with the same attitude like you.

maybe you have only met gay men that confirm the stereotype because you are somehow attracted to them? ever thought about that?

 

[Echoes]

could you provide a better explanation of what's for you the masculine super macho man (as you surely are) you're looking for?
I mean only to see who could possibly fit in that category.

sigh.

 

[HeavenOnlyKnows]

well if you want, you can spend the rest of your life crushing on heterosexual men and their oozing manliness, have fun!

 

[Greenherbz]

andy12, I feel yuh

 

[Audio Tech]

So where are the others like me?

Well, I am sort of like you.... so they (we) are out there. I like typical guy stuff, bugs and all.

Hang in there.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

OP, are you implying masculine homosexuals such as myself don't exist?
I assure you, it's not a game. We're quite real.

You and you alone misunderstand the essence of masculinity.

 

[Prestobesto]

despite my attractions to women, I never understood how liking effeminate could be masculine.

Am I the only one who saw this as a jarring contradiction?

If liking the effeminate is not masculine, and you are attracted to women (who are presumably somewhat effeminate), are you not implictly admitting that you aren't 100% masculine?

To my mind, that would place you in this category: "Not everyone is the same kind of effeminate, but some variant exists in all the men I've seen."

 

[BlondeCanadian]

I have been reading this for a couple minutes now thinking how to respond.

I think that all that the OP was trying to say is that he hasn't been able to find a completely masculine gay men.

I don't think that there is such a thing as someone being completely masculine everyone is prone to some traits that someone would consider feminine. Perhaps you are a little caught up on it and just put more intense scrutiny to the gay guys you have met. I bet you that if we were to intensely critique you we would be able to find something feminine in you..

 

[onetwothreefour]

I don't think the OP is being offensive—I think some people are not understanding him entirely.

I am like the OP in that I want to be with men, but I've never identified as gay, entirely. I think that is a legitimate position to have, to say you want the company of men, but not for sexual reasons, for a reason that is different. I'd almost say that the OP is saying for him being with a man is something innate he wants like a magnet rather than something specific like sexuality. It makes sense to me. The thoughts that follow relate a bit, but are a bit rambling and were hard to get out in a logical way. But if you have the patience:

I have always thought the same thing as the OP--that it's strange to me that we think of straight men as butch/masculine yet they are the ones that end up with a feminine woman. Reminds me of a line from Strangers with Candy episode called Invisible Love, "Having a girlfriend is gay. I'm gonna go take a dump with my friends." It seems like straight men for the most part will marry a woman and live the rest of their lives with her, having sex somewhat infrequently, in a doily-decorated house. I know that's a horrible stereotype, but it's just the image that comes to my mind when I think of the contradiction of the "more masculine" of the two sexual orientations settling down with a wife. I used to think wouldn't a really butch man think that a woman was "too gay" (as ironic as the wording is)?

I also found it annoying that I who was sensitive as a child and quite meek compared to other boys but got along well with girls ended up with the identity of gay as that seemed terrifying when I was perfectly happy getting along with girls. And it was straight boys who had always hated the idea of girls that then wanted them. And the idea of being gay always seemed much scarier than a straight life; like that gay guys as adults were not as sensitive or meek but rather edgier and my imagination was filled with guys in dives having one night stands while on drugs, etc, versus the picture of a happy married straight couple, which seemed safer and less scary. I essentially did not want to be gay, but had thoughts and worries I was. I still don't know what the hell I am.

My sexuality is also hard to articulate, but I feel similar to the OP. From sixth grade on, I was nervous around other guys and avoided them mostly (except for my strange group of friends who defied any normal definition of identity). And now as I am older, I have always just wanted to be around other regular guys. I don't have a strong lust toward sex with men, definitely none toward women. I have always felt confused in that it's hard for me to determine if I want to be like or be with the men I admire. My carnal sexuality is very weak, and it's mostly about fetishes unrelated to sex at all (jockstraps, spanking). It essentially comes down to incidental nudity or incidental sexuality among men who would otherwise be straight, such as spanking (there presumably could be a legitimate reason for nudity there), wrestling, locker rooms and jockstraps, etc. It's what I call incidental sexual familiarity in otherwise nonsexual environments. As a child I was afraid of such familiarity, and never experienced it. But it's not that I want to make it sexual now, but it is somewhat sexual now on its own. I feel though if I experienced those things, familiarity with other males in incidentally sexual ways, the sexual appeal of it would diminish. I'm not sure though.

But, the men (usually actors)I am "attracted" to never figure into my fantasies. I never look at sexual acts or men themselves and get aroused. It's difficult for me to tell whether I want to be like those actors or be with them or both. In that way, I am different from the OP, in that although I am masculine and not effeminate in my speech, I don't consider myself a hardy, stocky man's man—I more want to be that and be with people like that. I'm a little bit clueless and have a lot of anxiety. But in terms of personality, I would say I am masculine. I'm definitely low maintenance (I don't like that term, but can't think of another). You could say I am Woody Allen like (not in appearance). Maybe Larry David like is a better comparison (also not in appearance).

I would love just to be around other guys mostly. I really didn't fit in during school, except for one summer at a summer camp and I was around other "regular" guys like me, guys who liked sports but weren't great, who were intellectuals like me but not insanely competitive. It was just a comfortable group of friends, which was never my school experience where to be on a sports team you had to be a superstar, and amongst my "friends" academics were cutthroat competition to be valedictorian starting in sixth grade. It just was never fun. I was never around normal, regular, sane in the middle people. I just like the idea of hanging around guys, and I sexualize the idea somewhat, but I think I would just enjoy it for what it was if I could have it. Sort of like what I didn't have growing up. And I know that's what a lot of the conversion groups push—but I am not promoting that or saying that's why people are gay.

I am very open to whatever I am. Believe me, I am very progressive. I am open to the idea that I am subconsciously repressed, too. I am open to anything. But nothing clear has ever presented itself to me as my sexual identity.

 

[altlover85]

I don't think the OP is being offensive—I think some people are not understanding him entirely.

I am very open to whatever I am. Believe me, I am very progressive. I am open to the idea that I am subconsciously repressed, too. I am open to anything. But nothing clear has ever presented itself to me as my sexual identity.

I think the OP is not being offensive, but his words could be construed as such. Sometimes honesty isn't what others want to hear and may reveal (or seem to reveal) things about someone. For example, the OP could be seen as somewhat misogynistic, but I don't sense that he actually is.

As far as you go one, I think you probably are sexually repressed, but if it's not bothering you too much, I wouldn't worry about it. If it ever does bother you, go see a counselor and have him or her help you sort out how you feel and what your desires are. What's encouraging is that you are open-minded.

As far as your straight fantasy goes, I think couples have different dynamics, but people may buckle to societal pressures and therefore certain patterns (such as the woman being more in charge of the design of the house) may emerge due to expected gender roles. I think this is more likely in straight relationships due to the fact that they probably don't think about gender as much as non-straight people. This is just a theory, of course.

I hope you find happiness at some point in terms of a relationship. Good luck!

 

[G-Lexington]

I'd like to consider myself "masculine".

I've got a low voice.
I don't like shopping.
I listen to rock music.
I wear T-shirts and jeans 350 days a year.
I have season tickets to a contact sport.
All that stuff.

But I don't think I'd be interested in you. Not because you're not feminine. Not because you're "real". But because you have this sense of detachment and superiority. That somehow everybody else is faking it, but you're the "real" homosexual of the group. I'm having "g0y" flashbacks.

And that sense of entitlement and superiority, in my mind, is about as "faggy" a trait as any. In he most negative sense.

Lex

 

[jdoe4822]

I can def relate to the OP's feelings. His views on relationships with women ring true, as do many guys seemingly revisionist definitions of being masculine. My friends have long jokingly said that I'm not really gay, I'm just a straight guy who's into other guys instead of girls. Andy, I can assure you that us out doorsy, car repairing, xbox playing, rock listening, shopping hating, fashion blind homos are out here. Where to find us? well when you find out lemme know.

 

[Echoes]

I'd like to be consider "masculine" too.

I dress like any other regular "masculine" man does (love jeans)
I listen to rock music (Pink Floyd is my favorite)
I'm into sports, specially football
I don't think my voice sounds soft at all
I love beer and watching football matches
I do hate shopping but once in a while I need to get some stuff. So I'm sorry that makes me a sissy.

anyway I just hope to fit in the "masculine" category some day. I guess I will just have to give up my attraction to arts and my attempts for making my place look tidy.

regards.

 

[Greenherbz]

I'd like to be consider "masculine" too.

I dress like any other regular "masculine" man does (love jeans)
I listen to rock music (Pink Floyd is my favorite)
I'm into sports, specially football
I don't think my voice sounds soft at all
I love beer and watching football matches
I do hate shopping but once in a while I need to get some stuff. So I'm sorry that makes me a sissy.

anyway I just hope to fit in the "masculine" category some day. I guess I will just have to give up my attraction to arts and my attempts for making my place look tidy.

regards.

No reason to get offended because of his opinions. He wants a guy as least feminine as possible, who gives a shit? I never saw him say that guys who keep their place clean and like art aren't masculine or don't have masculine sides to them. He specifically said his last boyfriend was particularly feminine, he wants something else? Cant get mad at that.

 

[Echoes]

No reason to get offended because of his opinions. He wants a guy as least feminine as possible, who gives a shit? I never saw him say that guys who keep their place clean and like art aren't masculine or don't have masculine sides to them. He specifically said his last boyfriend was particularly feminine, he wants something else? Cant get mad at that.

I'm not offended, nobody has attacked me or anything like that, so there's no reason to be offended. Let's just say that it bugs me when people feel they're in an upper-level. And, of course he didn't say anything about neither arts nor keeping your place clean, I just like sarcasm.

 

[Nomenclature]

I'm not offended, nobody has attacked me or anything like that, so there's no reason to be offended. Let's just say that it bugs me when people feel they're in an upper-level.

He never said he was "better than you"; you put those words in his mouth yourself. All he said was that he hasn't been able to find a man who he's compatible with; someone who's on the same page with him.
He wants to have an equal partnership with someone, because he isn't into the dominant/submissive roles of a heterosexual relationship. He wants to have a best friend he can hang out with and also have be intimate with. He wants a gay partnership, not someone who he holds dominance over.




I really am sick and tired of gay men pulling the "You're self-loathing" card every time someone says they're into something different than what they represent. I've noticed that a lot of guys don't seem to like Asian men, for example. How would you feel if Asian men told you that you were self-loathing because you didn't happen to find them attractive?

 

[Echoes]

He never said he was "better than you"; you put those words in his mouth yourself. All he said was that he hasn't been able to find a man who he's compatible with; someone who's on the same page with him.
He wants to have an equal partnership with someone, because he isn't into the dominant/submissive roles of a heterosexual relationship. He wants to have a best friend he can hang out with and also have be intimate with. He wants a gay partnership, not someone who he holds dominance over.




I really am sick and tired of gay men pulling the "You're self-loathing" card every time someone says they're into something different than what they represent. I've noticed that a lot of guys don't seem to like Asian men, for example. How would you feel if Asian men told you that you were self-loathing because you didn't happen to find them attractive?

I never said he said that either. I'm sort of tired of the issue and I think you'd agree if I say that even if you don't say something explicit people can infer it. I won't say more because what I wrote was for him and he hasn't answered back yet, all I could say to you guys at this point is OUT of context.
We can have a chat about what I think about the Asian men example you gave in private. I'm not looking for distorting the main topic here.