Why don't you venture into CE&P?

[Oden_grey]

I used to be an avid poster in the political forum, but grew tired of posting there because most of the other posters were just simply one-track-minded Nazis that take differing views personally and tried anything and everything to snuff out dissenters... but ironically that was what they tended to rally against in our Conservative dominated country.

I stopped posting in that colossal shit hole of a forum because of all the same verbal diarrhea being repeated over and over again by a bunch of bitter, obnoxious, childish, hypocritical simpletons who have such a simplistic Sesame Street view of the world.

 

[springboksfan]

I was wondering how long it would take you to run & see

I got lost running back & forth from the other thread about CE&P.

The least you could have done, Midnight, was retract your accusation when you realized you were in error. Or was it your intention to make the Moderators look bad?



So you all have now had almost 90 posts to bitch and moan about how horrid CE&P is. Why don't you spend the next 90 posts proposing ways we can better the forum. Please, be specific. What would you expect us to do at any given point in time? And then, perhaps you could explain how you'd like to juggle the censorship/bias accusations that will inevitably come your way. Seriously. Take a stab at it. I'm dying to hear what you all think. Actually, new rules for CE&P are under review as we speak. Anything you come up with could be written into them. Who wants to go first?

 

[The_Reaper]

I visit the CE&P forum once a day in my visits here.

Whether or not I comment or post, is left to whether or not I have anything to contribute that day.

As to more why people don't go there in large numbers....

As much as I dislike the American Government at the moment, there's only so much Bush-Bashing a person can listen to before it gets redundent. He's terrible, and policy inept, but we don't need to hear about the same issues 100,000 times.

Sure, when he makes a new mistake, jump on it...But try to keep it all to one thread.


Then there's also people who just see politics as too dry, or "boring" for their tastes...Those people don't know what they're missing, in my opinion...

 

[Sausy]

An immediate cessation to any derogatory comment,spoken left or right,to any one's personal political beliefs or motivations,and more professionalism in our criticism of politicians and their actions,no matter what party.Personal insults,pouring it on,insinuations and accusations of character defect in posters or subject should be minimized if not avoided altogether.make your argument,discuss your points ans differences...but no one is better or worse than anyone else.You win arguments and win allies by not tearing into your opponent,but courting them,challenging them,treating them with dignity and respect.Only fools seek to burn bridges,instead of looking at the big picture and creating them.Must there be an impenetrable wall of division on every major issue?Is it always right/left...and never the train shall meet,or interesting and innovative strategies that can give us all common cause some of the time?

After all,we are a gay community...not professional politicians playing the game on the inside.Maybe a few of us can some day help undo the whole political partisan mess we're in by serving in elective office,maybe even the Congress.This all seems like wishful thinking Pollyanna twaddle,but I'm running with it!

 

[Andreus]

first and foremost?

apply the same standards there that are used in every other jub forum in regards to basic conduct.

I learned to abide by them in the other forums, and im sure others can as well. I know that one of the reasons that i had to abandon posting in the forum is because the behavior is atmospheric and contagious. there is only so much you can post before you just join in the mudfest. it almost happens without noticing.

I think that the outlandish behavior becomes commonplace and habitual. people just need to see that there is a way to express an opinion and still have fun and enjoy the experience.

I have evolved as a poster and i think that everyone else there can as well.

the problem is not in the topics or the site or the moderation or the documentation.

it is in behaviors of the posters, and that is just the bottom line.

the fix would have to be something that could cajole people into seeing that they would be best served personally by changing their behaviors.

why not just dump every post that crosses the line unceremoniously and replace it with a standard form letter worded something like.... deleted for tos violation.please repost your position without using abusive behavior.... I'm sure that people will just get tired of wasting their own time and try to figure a way to say things without yelling.

and whats wrong with being accused of censorship? if i could withstand the thorough jumping that snaps gave me with dignity then i'm sure that a moderator can stand up to telling people to just repost in a more socially acceptable manner.

AND

the boulder has to be stopped before it starts an avalanche. the first nasty post in the thread is the problem. often the fix cannot wait for a day as the mods debate a solution and action. as i said, the nasty atmosphere becomes contagious and in order to be heard you have to participate in the negative process.

Once the food fight begins there is nothing to stop it.

i hope that is helpfull

i would like to return there one day and play.

 

[NickCole]

I'll be accuse of whining,but the conservative/centrist alternative presence on the board is abysmal.

There is very little conservative point of view expressed on CE&P and I agree that's a big loss.

There's plenty of BushRepublican point of view, but BushRepublicans are not conservative.

Conservatives support smaller government and fiscal responsibility.

Conservatives support the social construct of family rather than the fantasy "Family values" hypocrisy, conservatives support privacy and keeping government out of our private lives (gay marriage is GOOD for society as a whole and is a decision to be made in the private lives of citizens, Terry Schiavo and her husband should have been left alone, etc).

Conservatives protect our environment and resources.

Conservatives resist entering, nevermind starting, wars.

Conservatives believe public education and private education are separate entities.

Conservatives believe in law and order -- dismissing and over-riding laws, and riding roughshod over the Geneva Convention, for instance, is in total opposition to their ideology.

The list goes on and on. We need more good conservative voices in political debate.

 

[metta]

There is very little conservative point of view expressed on CE&P and I agree that's a big loss.

There's plenty of BushRepublican point of view, but BushRepublicans are not conservative.

I totally agree with this. The Republican party is not conservative. There really is no conservative party with any power in the US. I was raised in a California Republican household (California Republicans have historically been liberal Republicans). The values that I was brought up with are not the values that the Republican party expresses. In fact, there actions are usually the complete opposite which has pushed me farther and farther to the left. I don't mind being on the left. They are just labels anyways. And there are many things in life that are more important than taxes.

 

[snapcat]

I totally agree with this. The Republican party is not conservative. There really is no conservative party with any power in the US. I was raised in a California Republican household (California Republicans have historically been liberal Republicans). The values that I was brought up with are not the values that the Republican party expresses. In fact, there actions are usually the complete opposite which has pushed me farther and farther to the left. I don't mind being on the left. They are just labels anyways. And there are many things in life that are more important than taxes.

Very good observation!

There is an HBO special on Barry Goldwater airing tonight. I'm not sure of the time nor much of it's content, but one of my liberal blogs that I follow highlighted it in a post.

Barry Goldwater was a true conservative, and one with whom you could rationally argue a point. He predicted what would happen to the GOP should the religious right seize hold of power within the party - and he was correct in his prediction.

Goldwater also advocated on behalf of a number of gay rights causes before his death. He advocated on behalf of allowing gays into the military and even on gay marriage - and this was over 10 years ago.

You can learn more about Goldwater and his advocacy for gay rights by CLICKING HERE.

I don't have HBO and won't be able to see the program, but if someone does watch I hope that they will post their thoughts on it.

 

[Andreus]

...... and some one else coming in and trying to call some one out on his posts was just as ridiculous, coming from a Moderator, when that wasn't the intention of the post.

.......

If you want more traffic in there, keep a better eye out and if you see something wrong, or name calling, deal with the issue.

Instead of coming on this thread and pointing out the name calling some one might've did.

I have had a chance to consider what occured last night in this thread as I was hanging around at work today and two things struck me.

one

I was harshly attacked by a mod of the CE&P forum in a thread that I did not even start about people being attacked by memebrs of the CE&P forum. the irony is that people were talking about the fact that they dont want to participate in that forum because they are tired of being attacked.

he said that I cry victim while attacking others and then made a sarcastic comment that he was glad to be the punching bag for midnights amusement when midnight was responding to him attacking me.

that is what you call a double standard.

It is rife in CE&P, and if that is how the leadership of the forum behaves, its easy to see why its out of controll in there.

the bottom line was that he was feeling defensive about the forum he minds and I seemed to be the easiest target and so he took the shot.

I think that everyone who has read this thread has seen the absolute double standards here and honestly considering some of the things said in that post I can find no good reason why I should believe that snapcat will ever have an unbiased opinion of any disputes that I would have in that forum, a forum riddled with disputes.

I am also aware that he participates in moderator forums discussions, and that his opinion as such is carried there of me in every request i make. I wonder how common this is and if I am the only one on his list of useless troublemakers. If he carries such heavy grudges, I am sure I am not the only one that he has made such ironclad and unmoving decisions about.

quite simply.... he has proven in technicolor neon lighting that, in fact, there are decisions made about people and participants long before a decision needs to be made about them and any thing that they do. Spapcat has point blank told me exactly how he feels about my participation in JUb as a whole, not only CE&P, and he cannot be trusted by me to ever have a clear eye when making decisions conserning any requests I make across the entire JUb system.

I think he cannot fully comprehend just how bad his behavior looks. If anyone else had done what he did, that member would have been assigned warning points, probably by him, and/or banned.

it would seem that one of those in charge of the fix is more interested in participating in the problem than finding a solution, or even considering that a problem exists.

second...

Snaps and Spring seem to think that snapcat is due a retraction and/or apology from midnightprism, without even adressing the behavior that caused the anger that led up to midnights frustration and anger.

it has the effect of saying... you need to apologize for stepping on someones toes as you were trying to stop someone assasinating someone elses character.

I feel strongly that there is a bubble effect going on here. a situation in which the mods of that forum are existing in a state out of touch with the membership. a state where they are unwilling to live by the very rules that they not only expect others to live by but have volunteered to uphold.

rather than answer the issues at hand, snapcat attacked one of the people carrying the message in hopes that lessening the message would be a better solution than fixing the problem.

I don't know it that level of misjudgement, double standards, and bias can be fixed.

i want to clearly state this.....

If asking hard questions and offering solutions is shit stirring, then clearly the boards belong to the mods and not the membership and we would all do best to not express our opinions on things for fear of reprisal from people who have the authority to do so.

I am no innocent victim and i have never claimed to be. I am also not open to a virtual sucker punch and do not appreciate that it occured.

 

[snapcat]

Here are some additional facts on Goldwater:

• In 1994 Goldwater joined the Human Rights Commission's "Americans's Against Discrimination" drive for gay rights.
• Goldwater supported Bill Clinton.
• Goldwater's grandson Ty is gay and HIV positive.
• Goldwater's first wife founded Planned Parenthood of Arizona.
• His subsequent wife was a registered nurse and director of a cancer and AIDS hospice.
• Goldwater thought that JFK would have made a good president had he lived.
• He never forgave Nixon for Watergate and refused to attend his funeral.
• He thought Bob Dole had the biggest temper on Capital Hill
• Goldwater often remarked that LBJ was the most dishonest man ever to be president.
• Hillary Clinton backed Goldwater for president in 1964.
• Goldwater thought that Hillary would make a better president than Bill, even though he disagreed with her health care initiative in the early 90's.
• Goldwater died May 29, 1998.
• Goldwater never took a position on abortion.

For me, he remains one of the most interesting political figures of our generation.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

Boy, I don't envy the jobs you Mods do, although I respect the way you do them.
It's all too very "You're damned if you don't and damned if you don't"
I've always enjoyed the CE&P forum but can't agree with those who say it's too liberal or too conservative. Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. If there weren't opposing views there wouldn't be such dissent in that forum.

We American members, particularly lately, do seem to dominate the forum. However, we just went through our primary elections and the general elections are looming on the horizon. The results of these elections will have a dramatic effect on the distribution of power in our Congress.

Many observers have said our county hasn't been this divided since our terrible Civil War. Does that make our passion in CE&P more understandable?

One unfortunate result of his dissention is that it must put an extremely heavy load on the JUB Moderators to referee many of our comments.

Thanks Guys for putting up with our sometimes chilish behavior.

 

[ahotjock71]

One word:

 

[chris0626]

Spent quite a bit time in there lately.

Although there were some extremely intelligent, well-worded, well-informed posts relating to whatever the subject was, there where twice as many "this is my opinion and it's the only one that matters in the universe, so bow bitch"-type posts.

I am all for debate and will readily concede points in an argument, but the general nit-picky-ness and nastiness infuriates me. Debates are about give and take. There is very very little in this world that is THAT black and white. Truth is a matter of perspective.

I respect everyone's right to have their opinion and to voice said opinion at the top of their lungs; what I cannot respect is being told (or reading) that my opinion doesn't matter.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to be nice all the time, just a tad more respectful.

It's very easy to be an e-thug at the keyboard, but when confronted face to face, will these same folks still have that same resolve? I think not. If you wouldn't say it, verbatim, to someone's face, then don't type it.

 

[Centexfarmer]

I've avoided posting to this thread, because the question is "Why don't you venture into CE&P?

For those who know me here on JUB, I venture there.

There have been quite a few members who regularly post in CE&P who've respond to this thread. So, I'll toss in my two cents.

I take humbrage with my fellow JUBbers who choose to paint CE&P and those who post in it with such BROAD brush strokes. As if to implicate every JUBber who posts there.

When I first joined JUB, CE&P intimidated the shit out of me. Then one day, I decided to test the waters, and see how well that I would fare in that forum.

Unlike a few, I actually re-read what I've written before I hit the "Submit Reply" button. More so in CE&P than in any other forum here in JUB.

I have a personal mantra in my life which is this: Think ten times, and then speak only once.

I do this to make sure that what I've written isn't contrued as a personal attack, both in regard to JUB's TOS agreement, and to make sure that it's understood that it's a particuliar perspective, or logic that I'm questioning, and not necessarily directed at the person who posted.

I'm not going to claim that I haven't gone after a few fellow members who've posted there. But I will say, it's only because I feel that other attempts that I've made to engage them have failed.

There are some people, a few who've been extremely VOCAL in this particuliar thread, who gather up their little dollies and run off to other forums crying about how they weren't getting enough attention.

The very same people, who when I've engaged them in a respectful inquiry to their position, instead happily jump into the mud-slinging with other JUBbers while not giving my post "on-topic" the time of day.

CE&P is not for people who wear their feelings on their sleaves. It's not for people who will take the mildest of an offense, and hold onto it was if their lives depend upon it.

My participation in CE&P has taught me how to step back, listen, and to reread what another member has posted so that I might better understand their position, or point of view.

I've actually made some real friends in CE&P. There's damn little that we agree upon, and in most cases we've actually agreed to disagree. That doesn't meen that we don't like each other.

There some members that I've exchanged with on CE&P, that I will actually PM to explain more clearly why I posted what I did to a comment that they've made to avoid any offense. Which subsequently has helped to give each of us a better understanding about who we are as individuals.

I'm of the opinion that a dialogue on any topic can not be had if the other person is always on the defensive.

I'm not always right, and the other members aren't always wrong.

I post much less in CE&P than I used to, primarily because I either have nothing to add, or by post #3 or #4 it's been hijacked by the usual culprits.

There have been, and continue to be some damn fine debates in that forum.

I for one enjoy the exchange of ideas. Just don't be surprised though if you come into that forum with "talking points" that you yourself don't subscribe too, and then get "called on the carpet" for them.

As someone once said, "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."

I'm more interested in knowing how/why you came to have that opinion. Is it YOUR opinion, or a deeply held belief?

If I've ever offended anyone who has posted to that forum, it was never my intention.

But honestly, after reading some of the posts in this thread, there are a couple of more members who are one step closer to being added to my ignore list.


Sorry for the long post, I know that there are some who apparently have a very short attention span.

 

[Soilwork]

Quite honestly, I don't go in there because it's usually infested with a bunch of obnoxious, whiney people, pointless circular arguements, gay conservatives with the reasoning level of a 3rd grader, and every thread descends into a childish flame war in about two posts.

I like that some of the people I find most objectionable on JUB post primarily in there. Means I don't have to deal with them out here.

 

[Soilwork]

And as for people sending me PMs about the "Broad Brush"... sorry... I call them as I see them.

 

[iman]

Well, I guess we have found out how to make CE&P more popular. We will not question the victim hood of professed victims, obvious propaganda will be treated as serious commentary, nothing anyone says will be questioned because we know it is "heartfelt" and "genuine", evidence and rationale will be outlawed as inflammatory (how impolite to ask for reasons) and nary a discouraging word will be heard. Oh, and of course the bulldogs will all have rubber teeth and the cops will all have wooden legs.

Yes, that's it, and we'll call it "Hot Topics", or if that title is taken "Inane Topics" or "Non Topics".

It is really unfortunate that gay men living in these times are crying about a little adversity on important subjects---and you guys want to join the Army? You all better stick to purse fights at Fashion Week.

 

[chris0626]

Well, I guess we have found out how to make CE&P more popular. We will not question the victim hood of professed victims, obvious propaganda will be treated as serious commentary, nothing anyone says will be questioned because we know it is "heartfelt" and "genuine", evidence and rationale will be outlawed as inflammatory (how impolite to ask for reasons) and nary a discouraging word will be heard. Oh, and of course the bulldogs will all have rubber teeth and the cops will all have wooden legs.

Yes, that's it, and we'll call it "Hot Topics", or if that title is taken "Inane Topics" or "Non Topics".

It is really unfortunate that gay men living in these times are crying about a little adversity on important subjects---and you guys want to join the Army? You all better stick to purse fights at Fashion Week.

What a completely bitchy response! I didn't read anywhere about anyone 'crying' about adversity of opinion nor about evidence (if factual) nor rationale.

It's this type of 'twittery' that people are referring to. Ease up man.

(for the record, the 'Fashion Week' line, too funny )