And still they don't learn [School Shooting in Winder Georgia]

[Alistair]

 

[frankfrank]

America is a gun.

School shootings are so normalized now that within 48 hours, this will be out of the news cycle.

America loves its guns more than its children.

You were absolutely right. By this past weekend (7th-8th), the Winder shooting was relegated to oblivion by the news cycle.

Can we or should we take away all guns? It isn't going to happen. Keeping guns out of their hands by making strict laws for those that are dumb enough to leave them unlocked will have an impact. Metal detectors will have an impact. If it works at airports it will work at schools.

An effort to "take our guns away" could have been successful in 1940 or 1950, but not since. There are so many guns out there, that anybody who wants one for nefarious purposes has no trouble getting one illegally.

Do you have an inkling as to how many guns are out there? Sure, ban the sale, there are plenty for deranged asshole to get a hold of. Also take in to account that we really aren't too good at keeping goods of any kind from being smuggled in to our nation.

There are more privately-held guns in the U. S. than there are people! Even our northern neighbor Canada can't keep guns out - an earlier post mentions that guns that were originally owned in Texas are the most prevalent source of illegal guns there. Heck, even maximum-security prisons can't stop illegal DRUGS from being smuggled in. Prisons do stop guns from coming in illegally (When is the last time you heard about an inmate "shooting up" a prison?), but living in a society that has prison-type security for everything is a non-starter.

I remember when "going postal" was the catchphrase for somebody committing mass murder with a gun, because that incident at the Royal Oak MI Post Office was still an anomaly, the only criminal mass-murder (in a place with more people than a household, and "all at once") that people easily knew about for a number of years. Mass shootings at schools, parks, concerts, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. were still UNKNOWN. That mass-homicide was in the news cycle for YEARS. Nowadays it's "just another day of the week that ends in Y".

 

[Kulindahr]

It appears that the culprit was on the FBI's radar.

Georgia school shooting: FBI alerted police to suspect, 14, last year

Local schools were asked to monitor the 14-year-old after online threats about a school shooting in 2023, the FBI says.

www.bbc.co.uk

I keep hearing FBI people say they can't do anything until there's an actual crime, not just a threat.

So where's the national community-based mental health care system one NRA board member used to say we need? The FBI could have taken this kid to a live-in facility for help.

JD Vance's response was to call school shootings a "fact of life" and call for more security at schools. "If these psychos are going to go after our kids we've got to be prepared for it," he said at a Phoenix rally, per the AP. "We don't have to like the reality that we live in, but it is the reality we live in. We've got to deal with it."

So there you have it. A repsonse from the Republican candidate for VP. America is a slave to its guns and has capitulated.

Father of School Shooting Suspect Arrested, Charged

Authorities say charges have to do with Georgia man allowing his son to have a gun

www.newser.com

I read a paper a while back that analyzed the difference between the U.S. and other NATO members in terms of citizen attitudes about life. It said that one surprising result stood out: the U.S. is just more violent, period; they say their index showed Americans are on average eight times as likely to engage in violence than the NATO mean, and over twelve times as likely as the NATO lowest figure; they even called it "a cult of violence". Also very different were the responses: young people in the U.S. are far more likely to be praised for aggressive violence and for nothing to rally be done while in Europe young people who engage in or threaten violence are given help.
These shootings are just a symptom of a national fascination with and even love of violence in general; indeed the paper noted that given the differences in violence and attitudes towards violence the shocker was that the amount of wrongful use of lethal weapons isn't a lot higher -- which suggested that there are factors mitigating the violence somewhat and noted that those factors should be found and studied.

Somehow the U.S. needs to inculcate in its people the attitude expressed by one of my Tae Kwon Do instructors: the art is for inner balance, for connection with your body, and defense of self and others -- and (paraphrasing) "if any of you ever uses violence aggressively . . . I . . . will . . . despise . . . him . . . eternally".

 

[Kulindahr]

View attachment 2695193

Before that: a teenager who thinks violence is fun is not a well-regulated militia member.

The U.S. Founders and Framers understood that, and did something about it, but we've lost the cultural systems by which these kids were dealt with -- back then, a teacher or employer would talk with the local pastor and they would talk with the militia leaders and they would all go to the parents and set in motion things to keep weapons from the kid until he got straightened out. Now there just isn't that sort of community structure and we need something in its place to catch these kids before they turn into dis-regulated types, something like a national community-based mental health system.

And, many parents drink the opium of "My Child Does No Wrong", so they likely believed him.

I've watched parents stand and defend their "angel" who was standing there with the evidence in his hands!

There is a growing arrogance in America that no one can tell Americans what to do

I saw a young teen say that to a parent out in front of the church across the street from me. One of the elders walked up behind him -- Marine sergeant veteran -- and quietly said, "I can". The parent didn't bat an eye, just raised an eyebrow and looked at her son, then up at the elder, then back.
I think the kid was afraid to turn around; that elder is 6'4" and almost all solid muscle, and as a former Marine sergeant he had the ability to terrify someone with a look.
When the kid had walked away the mom asked what the elder would have done if her son had spun and said, "No you can't!" He chuckled and asked, "Was that really a possibility?" That reply wasn't just because he's so intimidating, he's also an incredibly caring person who manages to talk to kids of any age on their level, so he's actually loved by the kids there.
Too bad we don't have an elder like that for every kid in the country.

 

[Kulindahr]

Perhaps looking into the typical profile of a shooter, a lonely, ostracized, bullied adolescent boy. Then rather than to label such a person as a possible risk, find a way to make this boy a part of the school community rather than an outcast. This might take a real attitude adjustment on the part of staff and the "cool kids".

In my high school it was the "cool kids" -- the Lettermen's Club -- who stood against bullying and frequently managed to make outsiders into part of the community (on the wrestling and track teams we invited the loners and 'losers' to join the team, which automatically gave them eighty or more defenders). I wish I could figure out how to make that happen everywhere, but I think a lot of it rested on having pride in our school, something that is often lacking today.

 

[Kulindahr]

If the shooter turns out to be an anti-woke patriot he's set for life.

Actually the sentiment in the NRA is that all teen shooters should be tried as adults and given long sentences, partly due to the common notion that the police are always right but also that the purpose of guns is not aggression.

 

[Kulindahr]

Why would anyone want the "right" to own a gun?

I and at least one other friend are alive today because we were armed. A gal I know didn't get raped because she was armed. A group of teens I was responsible for didn't get molested because I was armed.
The right to self-defense by the means of one's choice is necessary to not just being property or a victim.

 

[Kulindahr]

Murder rates have been generally trending down, and I think that has a lot to do with gun controls that have been put in place.

It could also be argued that the murder rates have fallen due to the very high incarceration rates.

They also correlate well with the trend towards permitless carry.
But that isn't going to affect the most common murders, those between people who know each other, much, so it will level off. The next step has to be stopping the federal government from subsidizing violence through the misnamed "War on Drugs", which causes about four-fifths of all violent crime in the U.S.

Oh -- and get that national community-based mental health system built!

 

[Kulindahr]

And this is why, if all the people who think they have all the answers about how things should work continue to not vote, or vote for people owned by the gun industry, nothing will change. Except the names of the victims.

View attachment 2698575

Not surprising that only one of those is constitutional, given the source.

The point of the Second Amendment was that every citizen should -- not just should have access to -- the same arms as a professional soldier. But the well-regulated militia clause is in there for a reason -- those same citizens should be self-disciplined and responsible, and held responsible when the misuse firearms or allow others to do so. A well-regulated militia is about protecting, not about harming, which in my view means that any crime committed with a weapon as a component should be treated as a crime against the nation as a whole, even a crime against the Constitution -- and that includes any enablers who didn't provide proper training.

BTW, the list of things above is what every fascist has always loved: make it as hard as possible for the ordinary citizen to be armed.

 

[Kulindahr]

What "well regulated militia" do you belong to?

The Constitution does not require that a well-regulated militia actually exist, only that it be enabled.

On the flip side, the Constitution expects that Congress will do its best to achieve having a well-regulated militia, a power and responsibility it has neglected for something like a century and a half. A good start would be a robust national community-based mental health system.

 

[peeonme]

The Constitution does not require that a well-regulated militia actually exist, only that it be enabled.

On the flip side, the Constitution expects that Congress will do its best to achieve having a well-regulated militia, a power and responsibility it has neglected for something like a century and a half. A good start would be a robust national community-based mental health system.

Mental health care is an important part, most people are referred to Psychiatrists or other mental health care professionals by the primary care doctors. Often the copays keep people from seeking care of PCP's until they are very ill. Affordable health care is a must in our nation. For males it is seen as a sign of weakness to seek help so many have a hidden seething rage that can erupt at home, the workplace or school.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Every county seat, no matter how small, and every town/city of more than 5k people, should have a mental health facility with a 24-hour drop-in center. This has been shown to reduce petty crime along with violent crime plus catching people at the start of a crisis instead of police catching them during it, thus reducing the police load; it also gives police somewhere to take a mentally ill person besides locking them up in jail.
In connection with criminal misuse of arms I harp on mental health care because I think there's a strong argument to be mad that it falls under the powers granted to Congress in Article I Section 8 (paragraph 14 or 15, I think) to "discipline" the militia, which in today's terms would be to provide for having a disciplined militia -- and for a fair portion of mentally ill folks their being armed does not make for good discipline; thus I say Congress has constitutional authority to both keep such persons from getting arms and providing places where people can get treatment so they might be able to be sufficiently disciplined.

This relates to part of why Alexander Hamilton thought the Second Amendment useless without compulsory training. The odd thing to me is that today's left, for whom education is brought up as a solution for many, many problems, when it comes to arms suddenly they abandon that even though rationally they should be in Alexander's shoes insisting on training, especially safety training.

most people are referred to Psychiatrists or other mental health care professionals by the primary care doctors.

Those who have primary care doctors.

But that leads to another of my pet peeves; it used to be that it was often pastors who took note of violent tendencies and urged people to treatment; now, too many pastors have thrown in with the "rights without responsibilities" faction as far as being armed goes -- that baffles me! -- though there are signs that this is changing.

Often the copays keep people from seeking care of PCP's until they are very ill.

Back under Clinton I said that the first $2k of medical spending should be a tax credit, and from there up to $12k should be a deduction without the game of playing with percentages. Now I'd boost those to $5k and $15k. And this should satisfy the actual republicans who want decisions left in the hands of the individuals because there would be no bureaucrats making rulings. In fact to make it easier there could be coupons that would be validated by the medical facility/provider to turn in with a tax return.

many have a hidden seething rage that can erupt at home, the workplace or school.

I used to split wood. When I first started university, I got so frustrated with some professors that I ordered a truckload of mill ends (the part of the log from near the stump that is hard to mill -- and thus are cheap) to be delivered next to our apartment. Generally two days a week I came home frustrated and/or angry enough that I'd chop up a small stack of firewood to be stored -- a couple of times I drew faces n the mill end before wielding the maul.
I read of a town that did what my school system did from fifth grade through high school: any time a pair looked like they were stewing for a fight they got marched to the gym where they were given boxing gloves and told to go at it (often stripped to underwear). It was amazing because when guys fought in the hall or our on the sports field they ended up still angry, but with the phys ed teacher there making them fight until they couldn't stand, the majority of those angry pairs ended up friends -- but it also reduced fighting because people knew there would be a price to pay. Of course according to the school counselors it was a way to burn off anger and aggression, so they would send people to the gym for the same treatment.
Which is to say that there needs to be an outlet for anger and aggression; it's not possible to train it out of very many people.

Though that reminds me of something I read that struck me as strange at first: some town ran a program where kids who talked about shooting someone were taken to a range and made to shoot melons with faces painted onto them. For most, that reduced the inclination to think of shooting anyone, but there was a small portion for whom it just made them more eager to have "real live targets".
Personally, I wouldn't let anyone in the latter category walk off the range; I'd have the state police come by and put them on a 72-hour hold.

 

[Nude_Dude]

Boy, 14, arrested after four killed in US school shooting (BBC; September 4, 2024)

Casualties reported after Georgia high school shooting​

I've just watched Australia news on yesterday's possible assassination plans for Trump - juxtaposed with a long history of gun violence and multi murderous attacks on kids, just attending school.

There have been at least 46 school shootings in the United States so far this year, as of September 6.
Thirteen were on college campuses, and 33 were on K-12 school grounds.
The incidents left 24 people dead and at least 62 other victims injured, according to CNN’s analysis of events reported by the Gun Violence Archive, Education Week and Everytown for Gun Safety.

https://edition.cnn.com/us/school-s...ents reported,, Everytown, and Education Week.

He concluded with, that if the horrendous, mass murder of children at Sandy Hook Elementary School didn't change American gun culture, it's likely nothing ever will

I've met, have known - and have a number of American guys as friends on Facebook.
None of them has bought this "right to bear arms" dogma - or are "Friends of Trump"

 

[Kulindahr]

None of them has bought this "right to bear arms" dogma - or are "Friends of Trump"

As far as I'm concerned, Trump is a total justification for the Constitution protecting the right to keep and bear arms! We need a million or more "Rainbow Rifles" to tell the Trump fans they're not the patriots they think they are.

 

[NotHardUp1]

We are a selfish and dishonest people. It shows in many places -- in our governments, in our businesses, in our houses of worship, in our schools, and on our streets.

Our handicapped parking is most often filled with arrogant liars who either claim they have mobility issues in order to have privileged proximity, or are family members using the tags illegally, or just plain old thugs taking the spots 'cuz fuck you! And then there are the many cases where the business employees themselves use the spots. Everyone and their rabbit knows this is true.

And it goes to the core of how law and order has devolved in our nation.

The federal mandate went through for good reasons, yet the number of spots set aside is idiotic and far beyond actual need. That set up a chain of events that causes average citizens to become cynical about all laws. Store owners act like you're about to make a citizen's arrest if you ask them to report the crime. Police in many jurisdictions won't even come for shoplifting, much less a parking violation.

So, the message is driven home that liars and criminals are acceptable. And that means, in a measurement of who "wins" and who "loses" in this society, the law-abiding quickly learn they are merly chumps and becoming more 2nd class evWeery day.

The same applies to the shoplifting, the smash & grabs, and the endless arguments that somehow race is a valid excuse for crime or a meal ticket in lieu of reparations. When the left doesn't honestly admit to the real status of society, just as when the right doesn't, it sets up a blood feud that is going to continue to worsen as both sides lie about what is or is not happening in our society.

We could go through a list of 100 topics with similar lies, but the general point is made.

And gun violence is the symptom, not the cause. People commit crimes more easily with guns, but there has been more than 500 years of European occupation of North America that is full evidence that guns did not equal lawlessness until the people became seffish and hateful.

Even the road rage shootings don't go away if guns evaporated tomorrow. Drivers use multi-ton vehicles to bully other drivers, to endanger many citizens, and to do what is expedient for themselves rather than what is legal and right. And WHY do the police allow it? Because they are from the same society, have the same selfish inclinaitons toward privilege, and have the same "meh" attitude about "lesser" crimes, so rationalize away why they shouldn't be the enforcers of the law except in extremis.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

We are a selfish and dishonest people.

Say it again.

The same applies to the shoplifting, the smash & grabs, and the endless arguments that somehow race is a valid excuse for crime or a meal ticket in lieu of reparations.

Literally no one has ever argued this. Then again, you said it yourself....

We are a selfish and dishonest people.

Anyway....

When the left doesn't honestly admit to the real status of society, just as when the right doesn't, it sets up a blood feud that is going to continue to worsen as both sides lie about what is or is not happening in our society.

There we are, bOtH sIdEs!

And WHY do the police allow it? Because they are from the same society, have the same selfish inclinaitons toward privilege, and have the same "meh" attitude about "lesser" crimes, so rationalize away why they shouldn't be the enforcers of the law except in extremis.

The entire profession literally began as slave patrol and are now glorified gold/property guardsmen which is why banks and Marilyn Monroe's dress have 24-hour security but we're AT LEAST decades away from being a safe, stable society. It's bizarre that you identify "lesser crimes" like somebody stealing a Snickers bar but not brazen systemic illegal behavior like, oh, say, centuries of unprosecuted violence and terrorism? This inability to self-correct while sternly lecturing other cultures, in my theory, directly contributes to young white males shooting up schools. All of this will be unpacked in my essay "1,001 ways racism and ethnic vanity circles back to harm even white communities themselves."

I end with a joke to lighten the mood.
Q: Why don't you see cops in lynch picnic photos?
A: SOMEONE had to take the picture.