Bulking up (kinda long read- advice needed)

[Rex]

Lately I've been eating more than I ever eat. I normally don't have a big appetite but I've been doing this in order to bulk up and gain mass.

Before when I'd work out I would only notice very small gains because my diet and nutrition weren't good enough. I wasn't getting enough protien and I'd skip meals.

Now I eat more than ever before and drink two protien shakes a day and aim for getting a gram of protien per pound of body weight.


Even though the gains are slow, they are coming. I gained a few lbs and look more fuller and bigger.


Now my concerns, and I'm asking them here because every website or bodybulding forum or site I go to seem to have differing opinions.


1. I am not really worrying about eating healthy. I'm not eating overly UNhealthy but I'm basically eating as many carbs and calories as I can without force feeding myself. I have an extremely high metabolism and I have had a slim body most of my life, could pretty much eat whatever I wanted without worrying about getting fat.

I have gained some belly fat but it's not a big concern yet.

Lately though I've been considering trying to eat healthier but still whopping on the calories in carbs so I can handle the workouts I get. Should I cut out all white flour foods (rice, white bread)? I am also considering cutting out high fructose corn syrup even though that will be very hard, as well as most fast foods. Can I still make gains in weights by eating all light and healthy foods?



2. When I am lifting weights I usually do 3 sets of 5-7 exercises during a work out.

My program is like this:


3 sets of an exercise , first set (8-12 reps), second set (8-4 reps), and third set (6-2 reps).


I have heard though that I should probably be using much heavier weights, less reps but more sets. One of the staff members at the gym once told me that it's not too out of the ordinary to do 10 sets of bench press at max weight with 1-3 reps per set. I've never tried a program like that.

What is the best route to go if I just want to build mass and size? I am afraid of going to heavy in feat that I'll be sacrificing proper form (my form is already mediocre sometiemes) and I don't want to risk shoulder injury by going too heavy.



3. I have cut cardio completely out of my program except during 3-5 min of elyptical during my warm up. Is this bad? I did this because I am trying to eat more calories than I burn so I gain weight and I have a high metabolism.

But lately I have been finding that I get out of breath and sweat more during my lifting (I no longer smoke btw). Is this because of my lack of cardio or possibly because I didn't consume enough calories or carbs prior to my workouts for those particular days?

Basically what I'm asking is "is cutting off cardio a good or bad thing when trying to bulk as much mass as possible?" I wouldn't be completely apposed to doing some light cardio every now and then but most people told me to avoid it during bulking. I essentially want to bulk more muscle and less fat but I know I will gain some fat and I'm OK with that. I just want most of my weight gain to come from muscle.




Thanks for reading all that.

 

[eleven30]

A couple things, but I need to get ready for work so I'll make it quick:

1: All food that are light aren't healthy. All foods that are healthy aren't light. You basically want to cut out as much pre-processed junk as you can, get enough protein (which you seem to on the right track for) and keep your carb intake to complex carbs (quinoa, brown rice, whole grains, etc) instead of ones like chips, white bread, etc. There's plenty of filling food that is great for heavy lifters. (Pasta is your friend)


2: 10 sets is ridiculous, and you'll be in the gym all day. I normally do about 3-4 sets of anywhere from 5-10 reps, depending on if I'm bulking or not. Shoot for 8, it's a nice middle number. Unless you're planning to be in bodybuilding competitions, I'm going to make the assumption that you actually want functioning muscle mass, not just size. Doing 3-4 sets of a weight that challenges you 6-8x will give you the size and actually make those muscles stronger instead of just larger.
Also- If you can't lift with proper form, you shouldn't be lifting alone. You need a spotter; find a gym buddy. Concentrate and thinking about what you're doing on your lifts and your form will improve.

3. You sweating is showing the exact opposite of what you think. If you're doing a heavy workout without wasting a lot of time in between lifts, you should be fine without cardio. Your heart is still doing all the work of keeping your body running through your lift. You're sweaty and out of breath because (theoretically) you're working hard. Cardio couldn't hurt, and it would almost definitely help you burn fat faster, as long as you aren't doing something crazy like 2 hours of cardio a day


There's a TON of good information on www.stronglifts.com . I don't actully follow his weight training regimen, but I'm signed up for his newsletter because he is FANTASTIC at giving great information about lifting, form, and especially nutrition. Check out the FAQs and forums. A little research goes a long way man, and may be better than asking a bunch of random internet queens ;-)

Hope I was helpful. Good luck!
*looks at the time*
*shrieks and runs into the shower*

 

[KaraBulut]

Well, you can get different opinions but I can tell you what I've seen from middle eastern guys.

Fat will eventually catch up with you. Think of it this way- there is a limited amount of nutrition and there are two armies of cells fighting for those resources- muscle cells and fat cells.

By doing what you're doing, your fat cells are getting fat and sassy. And they're growing stronger. The minute you try to cut back, those same fat cells are going to turn into mega-divas because they're going to want the carbs that you're giving them now. And they have some things on their side that your muscles don't have- one of them is cortisol.

Read up on what cortisol does to belly fat. And know that most middle eastern men have a natural genetic tendency to gain weight both inside and outside around their abdomen.

1. I am not really worrying about eating healthy. I'm not eating overly UNhealthy but I'm basically eating as many carbs and calories as I can without force feeding myself. I have an extremely high metabolism and I have had a slim body most of my life, could pretty much eat whatever I wanted without worrying about getting fat.

There's a saying, "You can't have a baby in a month by getting nine women pregnant".

This is true of nutrition and muscle growth.

Lean mass takes time and work.

What you're doing in "adding bulk" is just increasing carbohydrate stores in your muscles. You're "marbling" your muscles with fat. That will make your muscles look bigger but it's also creating those mega-diva fat cells that are going to cause you problems later on.

Eat a balanced diet. Avoid breads and sugars. Up your lean protein intake. Enjoy the doner and kebap but skip on the pita and lavash. Consider adding aminos to your intraworkout and post-workout nutrition.

I don't usually recommend specific products but one of my middle eastern friends swears by Mass XXplosion and I trust his recommendations.

2. When I am lifting weights I usually do 3 sets of 5-7 exercises during a work out.
My program is like this:
3 sets of an exercise , first set (8-12 reps), second set (8-4 reps), and third set (6-2 reps).

I usually tell people to not listen to what other people are doing and instead just experiment to find what works for you. Everyone has a different body and unless the person has a similar genetics to you, what works for them may not work for you.

But I will say that from what I know, you're doing exactly the opposite of what a build routine would typically do.

General rule is:

• high weight (or pyramid weight) with low reps is a strength routine.
• low weight, high rep, high set is a mass building routine.

Sets of less than six with high weight are going to build strength but won't add mass for most bodies.... but again, experiment and find what works for you.

3.
Basically what I'm asking is "is cutting off cardio a good or bad thing when trying to bulk as much mass as possible?" I wouldn't be completely apposed to doing some light cardio every now and then but most people told me to avoid it during bulking.

"Less is more"

Some guys do say to cut all cardio when adding mass.

I don't agree with that.

When you're eating (and you're about to hit those horrible midwestern winters), your body wants to store fat. Cardio tells your body: I need nutrition for exertion, not fat stores.

Do 20-30 mins of non-stress level treadmill (since you're getting to the time of the year where you can't go for walks outside). Don't do elliptical and don't set the treadmill for high incline or variable intensity. That amount of treadmill will give you what you need to maintain good cardiac health, to tell your body "don't store fat" and to not burn too much energy.

For future reference, if you want to burn fat and lean up, then use variable intensity, longer cardio- this would be elliptical, aerobics or treadmill on the "hilly" setting.

 

[Rex]

2: 10 sets is ridiculous, and you'll be in the gym all day.

But if you're only doing 1-3 reps per set it's not as time consuming I'd assume. All I know is the gym staff member who told me that has a body builder's physic and he seems like he knows what he's talking about. It defenitely sounds like an out of the ordinary program and I'm not ready for it but it sounded interesting.

3. You sweating is showing the exact opposite of what you think. If you're doing a heavy workout without wasting a lot of time in between lifts, you should be fine without cardio. Your heart is still doing all the work of keeping your body running through your lift. You're sweaty and out of breath because (theoretically) you're working hard. Cardio couldn't hurt, and it would almost definitely help you burn fat faster, as long as you aren't doing something crazy like 2 hours of cardio a day

But the thing is, I'm sweating and getting winded more than I used to when I was doing the same workouts. It may have been that i just didn't have as much energy that day. Not sure.

Well, you can get different opinions but I can tell you what I've seen from middle eastern guys.

Fat will eventually catch up with you. Think of it this way- there is a limited amount of nutrition and there are two armies of cells fighting for those resources- muscle cells and fat cells.

Oh I'm sure fat catches up to everyone when they hit thirty. It's pretty much inevitable but I am a very hard gainer. I have always had trouble gaining weight and never had a large appetite. I am trying to get in the habit of eating more and it hasn't always been easy.

This is true of nutrition and muscle growth.

Lean mass takes time and work.

What you're doing in "adding bulk" is just increasing carbohydrate stores in your muscles. You're "marbling" your muscles with fat. That will make your muscles look bigger but it's also creating those mega-diva fat cells that are going to cause you problems later on.

As of right now I don't see much fat on my body except a little on my gut. I've posted pics of my body in the "show yourself off" forum. I am pretty happy with the results I see so far because I'm more defined and building a little mass, little but enough for me to notice a particular difference.

Eat a balanced diet. Avoid breads and sugars. Up your lean protein intake. Enjoy the doner and kebap but skip on the pita and lavash. Consider adding aminos to your intraworkout and post-workout nutrition.

I am trying to avoid processed sugars but why avoid breads? I've heard that I should avoid enriched or white breads but why all bread? Everyone I know has always told me that wheat (real wheat) bread is very healthy and I need the carbs to be able to handle the lifting and workouts.

PS: Never heard of doner or lavash and I come from a family that eats middle eastern food all the time.

I don't usually recommend specific products but one of my middle eastern friends swears by Mass XXplosion and I trust his recommendations.

I've heard of it. I actually do not want to take any performance suppliments until I can get the most out of my body naturally through only dietary suppliments (protien shakes). I think this will be the best thing to do. I will try to go a few months naturally and see how far I can get and then if I'm not satisfied with my results or just want to test creatine or something out I'll do it but not just yet. I just figure the results will be far greater from suppliments if I go as far as I can before using them....

But I will say that from what I know, you're doing exactly the opposite of what a build routine would typically do.

General rule is:

• high weight (or pyramid weight) with low reps is a strength routine.
• low weight, high rep, high set is a mass building routine.

I got my information from this thread.

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=51

I've never heard that high reps and low weight is for mass building routines. I've heard that for cutting/toning or definition.


"Less is more"

Do 20-30 mins of non-stress level treadmill (since you're getting to the time of the year where you can't go for walks outside). Don't do elliptical and don't set the treadmill for high incline or variable intensity. That amount of treadmill will give you what you need to maintain good cardiac health, to tell your body "don't store fat" and to not burn too much energy.

For future reference, if you want to burn fat and lean up, then use variable intensity, longer cardio- this would be elliptical, aerobics or treadmill on the "hilly" setting.

I would but I've read (according to that thread) that doing cardio right after a lifting session is anti productive. Or maybe not in that thread but I know I read it somewhere....


I think I'm still going to stuff my face and try to eat as much as I can throughout the day but just stay away from processed or fried foods because in the past I would lift and be in the gym all the time and never see much gains even though I'd feel stronger. Now that I've been eating as much as I can I am finally seeing results, even though I do see a little bigger size in my gut but maybe that will change after I cut off the junk from my diet.

 

[Rex]

Bleh... seems like every site I go to have their own theories on what I should be doing and what is bad or good. Some of them seem to be contradicting each other.


This is why I hate trying to get advice from bodybuilding or weight training websites sometimes becasue it's so frustrating to know what to believe.... but in a nutshell they seem to be saying lift heavy and keep protien intake high and fat intake low.

 

[kallipolis]

This tragedy is an indication of where it can all go terribly wrong, even among those who should know better:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ak-accident-weightlifting-bar-falls-face.html

 

[KaraBulut]

Well, you can get different opinions but I can tell you what I've seen from middle eastern guys.

Fat will eventually catch up with you. Think of it this way- there is a limited amount of nutrition and there are two armies of cells fighting for those resources- muscle cells and fat cells.

Oh I'm sure fat catches up to everyone when they hit thirty. It's pretty much inevitable but I am a very hard gainer. I have always had trouble gaining weight and never had a large appetite. I am trying to get in the habit of eating more and it hasn't always been easy.

I can tell you from personal experience that something happens at age 30. But I can also tell you that all my bad habits from my teens and 20s came back to haunt me when I turned 30. Like so many things, I wish I knew then what I know now.

This is true of nutrition and muscle growth.

Lean mass takes time and work.

What you're doing in "adding bulk" is just increasing carbohydrate stores in your muscles. You're "marbling" your muscles with fat. That will make your muscles look bigger but it's also creating those mega-diva fat cells that are going to cause you problems later on.

As of right now I don't see much fat on my body except a little on my gut. I've posted pics of my body in the "show yourself off" forum. I am pretty happy with the results I see so far because I'm more defined and building a little mass, little but enough for me to notice a particular difference.

I highlighted a very important detail for you above.

The next time you're in the grocery store, take a look at the steaks and the ground beef. Notice that lower grade beef is "marbled"- it has white streaks of fat in between the red muscle tissue.

Your muscles are the same. If you "carb up" you're increasing not only the fat around your waist, you're also increasing fat in the muscle tissue. This makes your muscles look bigger- but it's not muscle fiber, it's fat.

I saw your latest pics and the ones from a couple of months ago. You've made a lot of progress but one of the reasons I'm commenting on middle easern genetics is that I see that pattern with you. You build mass in your back, chest and shoulders but you're lagging on biceps, triceps and other areas where middle eastern guys often struggle.

But I give you a lot of props- you've made a lot of progress and you look good.

PS: Never heard of doner or lavash and I come from a family that eats middle eastern food all the time.

The problem is probably one of arabic to english character set. Döner is arabic/turkish for what is also called shwarma further to the east- it is lamb. Lavash has a different name in most countries- I'm guessing that you're Maronite, so you probably know it as khobz arabeh (although if I remember, that's "pocket bread" where lavash is a flatbread of similar consistency).

Bread is great but it's also calorically dense and tends to make people retain water. It's fine to have a piece but the thing with bread is that people tend to eat it in quantity, especially in the fall and winter when are bodies naturally crave carbs.

I would but I've read (according to that thread) that doing cardio right after a lifting session is anti productive. Or maybe not in that thread but I know I read it somewhere....

That's true of high-intensity cardio where your heart rate is greatly accelerated and your muscles are working hard. Walking (on the ground or on a level treadmill) for 20-30 minutes is low-intensity cardio. You're not going to burn more than a 100 kcalories in that time span versus 300-500 kcals for a high intensity cardio workout.

Bleh... seems like every site I go to have their own theories on what I should be doing and what is bad or good. Some of them seem to be contradicting each other.

Keep in mind that most Americans are from Irish or Germanic stock. And what works for them will not work for Asians (whether middle eastern or pacific rim). You either have to talk with a bodybuilder who is mediterrean or you just have to experiment with what works for you.

 

[purina]

Maybe this information from a general health site about when you should eat in relation to workouts will be helpful.

Protein for Muscle Recovery and Growth June 28, 2009

Many athletes believe that they can grow larger muscles by taking protein supplements rather than by eating protein in ordinary foods. However, protein powders come from food, and extracts cannot be more efficient than the foods from which they are extracted.

All athletes train by stressing and recovering. They take a hard workout, damage their muscles, feel sore the next morning, and then take easy workouts until the muscles heal and the soreness goes away. The athlete who can recover the fastest can do the most intense workouts. Eating a high carbohydrate-high protein meal within a half hour after finishing an intense workout raises insulin levels and hastens recovery (Journal of Applied Physiology, May 2009). Another breakthrough study reported in the same issue shows that taking the high protein-carbohydrate meal before lifting weights does not hasten recovery.

Carbohydrate in the meal causes a high rise in blood sugar that causes the pancreas to release insulin. Insulin drives the protein building blocks (amino acids) in the meal into muscle cells to hasten healing from intense workouts. Muscles are extraordinarily sensitive to insulin during exercise and for up to a half hour after finishing exercise, so the fastest way to recover is to eat a protein- and carbohydrate-rich meal during the last part of your workout or within half an hour after you finish.

You can use either plant or animal sources of protein; both contain all of the essential amino acids necessary for cell growth.

There is also good data that creatine loading helps muscles recover faster. You get creatine from fish, poultry or meat, or creatine supplements. Your body can also make creatine from three amino acids found in both plants and animals: methionine, arginine and glycine. However, you get higher blood levels from supplements or animal protein sources. We do not know if taking the larger amounts of creatine in supplements is better than the amount found in meat, poultry or seafood.

Foods for Strength

If you want to become very strong, you should lift heavy weights, eat carbohydrates before you lift and eat plenty of protein afterwards. Normal amounts of insulin help muscles grow, and eating carbohydrates causes your blood sugar to rise, which, in turn, causes your pancreas to release insulin. Taking in large amounts of protein after a workout helps muscles to recover faster from hard exercise, so you can do more hard work and grow larger and stronger muscles (Journal of Physiology, Volume 573, 2006).

There's also this.

Interval Workout Rest Periods

Athletes train by "stressing and recovering". On one day, they take a hard workout which damages their muscles, on the next day, they feel sore and take easy workouts, and when the soreness goes away, take a hard workout again. They also break down individual workouts into intervals of stress and recovery. After warming up, they increase the intensity of the workout until they feel burning in their muscles, become short of breath, or exceed a certain heart rate. Then they slow down and when they have recovered partially, they increase their intensity again. They repeat these stress and recovery intervals until their muscles start to stiffen and they are then stop the workout. A report from The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health in Morgantown, West Virginia shows that the shorter the rest during an interval, the longer it takes to recover (Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, August 2005)...
A weightlifter may do four sets of ten repetitions of lifting a 150-pound weight, resting for three minutes between each set. If he shortens his interval rest to one minute, he may not be able to finish his workout, feels far more soreness during the workout and will be sore for many days after that workout.

 

[tallguy297]

Sultan I think you are way over complicating some parts of this whole thing and simplifying others...

Look at it this way... you cannot disregard what you put in your mouth so easily if you want to benefit from the work you do in the gym. So regardless of sets and reps unless you stop eating so crazily the effort will be for naught.

Some simple things to look at.

1. FAT

If you are seeing stomach fat build up there is 2 simple reasons.
A. You are eating too much FAT
B. You are eating too much EVERYTHING.

There are 2 sources of fat that will cause it to build up on your body

- the fat that you eat directly such as the stuff in fried foods and baked foods such as cakes and biscuits. These are full of trans fats that are killing you as we speak.
- the fat that builds up because you are simply consuming too many calories from all sources - fats, carbs and proteins. You only need a certain amount of energy to live... any more is turned into fat and stored.

So the fact that you can see fat building up says you have to stop eating crap, and stop eating so much.

2. BULKING UP

Bulking up is not stuffing your face, in fact bulking up is like walking a tight rope. Too many extra calories and you get fat - not enough and you dont gain.

Right now you are eating too much for the work outs you are doing. And if you are seeing this fat build up in a matter of weeks then its way too much.

As little as 10% extra calories is all you need - and get most of it in protein. Depending on your size to start with that can mean as little as 500mls (about a pint) of flavored milk. Not half of the hot box at the local cafe.

Change takes a long time, not over night.

3. FAT IS NOT MUSCLE.

The misconception that you can turn fat into muscle is just that. Muscle is muscle and fat is fat, just as timber is timber and steel is steel.

You can not turn fat into muscle no matter how hard you try or work. So getting fat is a waste of time effort and money.

4. SETS AND REPS

Science and history tells us that to grow a muscle you have to engage it specifically for 90 - 120 seconds. So what does that mean?

Imagine a bench press. Typically it would take 2 seconds to lower the bar and 2 seconds to raise it again... a total of 4 seconds.

So you do 10 reps per set = a total of 40 seconds that your pecs are engaged.

Do 3 sets and theres 120 seconds.

Now, you can vary that slightly 2 sets of 15 or 16 or 4 sets of 8... and its good practice to do so otherwise your muscles adapt too quickly and growth stops.

But the simple fact is you have to exhaust the muscle to make it grow, thats why the last few reps of every set should be hard work... they are the ones that make the biggest difference. You should struggle like shit with the last reps (dont lose form - thats when you get injured). If not its not heavy enough.

Guys who lift 1 or 2 or 3 reps are professional or Olympic type weight lifters... they are looking for explosive power... not size. They simply want to lift the heaviest weight they can - once.

And they didnt get big or the base load of power doing those low reps either... they got there like 95% of everyone else at the gym. Doing 3 sets of 6-12.

And they do that because it works... dont over complicate this. Its not rocket science.

5. CARDIO

Do it. Simple. You need it. You especially need it if you are breathless and putting on fat.

Yes, cardio after a work out is counter productive. It will stop repair and growth... so dont do it then.

Do cardio in the morning and gym at night. Or do cardio in the days between your gym sessions... like gym 3 or 4 times a week is fine.

And do dynamic cardio... like Tia Bo or P90X or some form of movement based exercise. It uses muscle fatigue, enhances co-ordination and core development... all things to keep shocking your body into growth.

A treadmill or bike doesnt give you anywhere the added benefit of dynamic cardio even though it will raise your heart rate.



Simply mate, you dont need to see fat when you are bulking... thats a lie. Bulking takes a co-ordinated approach... its not eat and forget. Nor is it lift low and heavy.

Its about balance and moderation in all things. But it doesnt have to be complicated.

 

[Bicuriousaussie]

Getting tired during workout could be due to anaemia get it checked up on. For meals look at a few of these: chicken, pork, beef, fruit n veges for carbs, peanut butter has good fats in it same with olive oil, oats are a good carb source, milk and eggs got fair amount of protein.

 

[Bicuriousaussie]

Oh btw i usually just eat peanut butter out of the jar if i need some calories before bed lol its pretty nice and its also got protein

 

[Rex]

That's tallguy.

I'm really not too worried about gaining fat because I don't have much on my body as it is but I'm going to make an effort to try and get all my calories and protiens from healthier foods.

If anything, I feel like I'm dropping a couple pounds because for the past two days I haven't been eating as much, kinda skipping some meals unfortunately so I need to get back on track.


I was always told though that's it's impossible to put on a lot of muscle without putting on at least a little fat.