Can't change...

[dmhead]

I'm almost 23 and I've been having problems with myself since I was 11 or 12. I was in denial for a while, then I realized what I was and wanted to die, then I decided to give it a shot and meet guys, then I just started hating life even more and basically living for nothing, etc. I can't look back and say there was a time when I was happy. Even when I was confident enough to go to a gay club, I was still frozen and I still had moments when I locked myself in the bathroom and hoped to die.

I've lost almost everyone I knew because I wasn't real with myself and I can't stand being in social situations when I feel like shit. I'm still not out and I haven't done anything with my life. I have no motivation to go on. I've tried to accept myself many times and even force it on myself, but the bottom line is that I don't want this life. I know it gets better for some gay people, but for me it doesn't. I have a brother that might be gay and that possibility eliminates all chances of me coming out. I could be totally wrong but I have this obsession to put my life on hold until I know what's up.

I also have some strong beliefs that are not good for me. I believe a stronger mother figure can lead to a person turning out gay. Genetics might play a role too but I find it very hard to believe some of it isn't psychological. It's not a coincidence that many gay guys, even the masculine ones, are usually still a little different. My mom is more "authoritative" than my dad and I think that explains some stuff. I even feel guilty about that sometimes. I know it doesn't make sense, but ultimately if it wasn't for curiousity and if I wasn't so quick to look at gay porn as a kid...who knows.

The hardest part is the fact I believe in God. I'm not a religious person but I strongly believe there is a God. The fact is that ALL religions condemn those who act on their gay feelings. People can argue that the bible was written by men, but that fact doesn't give me peace. If God wanted to reward those who believed in Him, he would reward those who honored "his" word. The bible is the closest thing to God that we have, so even if it's false, wouldn't God support those who followed what they thought He had wanted?

My problems aren't the type that can be solved in therapy. I couldn't afford it even if I wanted to but I just don't see a good ending here regardless. Talking about stuff can help, but the cold hard facts here are that I believe in God too much to live in peace while being gay and I suspect my brother might be the same as me. I know some people can live with that but I can't. There is no way ever that I would accept myself if the latter was true, it's just who I am.

This post was really long, but I thought if I was going to be honest I'd go all the way. I can't see a way out of it and it's hard to live with that feeling inside and no one to talk to. Thanks to anyone who bothered to read.

 

[vidarr]

First let me say that suicide is an incredibly selfish act, one that would destroy the people that love you.. and yes I'm willing to bet there are a ton of people that do love you.

It seems like your problems are bigger than accepting your sexuality. You need someone to kick you in the ass to get you motivated to start living your life..

Are you going to let your fears control your entire life? If thats so then by all means, stay in the closet. But when you are 40 and you are still living in the same town, seeing the same people you knew in highschool, you're are going to wonder what happened.

Maybe you don't want to hear this.. But it's what I needed for myself.
Now I'm going back to school. I met someone in the process and my life is getting back on track.
I wish the same and more for you.

 

[ben9651]

Stop hating life and start living it ! there is sooo much out there!!!
You and I are almost alike .. i do believe in God. and i personally feel disgusted when i hear people say that god doesn`t exist.. i agree with VIDARR .. your problems arent just sexual .. how old are you? did you go to college.. If no, you should !
Stop thinking about ur brother cuz its only making you feel worse.Just look at the bright side of any situation.GOODLUCK budyy

 

[KaraBulut]

The hardest part is the fact I believe in God. I'm not a religious person but I strongly believe there is a God.

When I hear people say this, it's insulting to believe that the God you say you believe in would create a gay person to be wrong, immoral or sinful.

You can't have it both ways- if you believe there is a perfect Creator then who are you to judge the imperfections of what he created?

My problems aren't the type that can be solved in therapy. I couldn't afford it even if I wanted to but I just don't see a good ending here regardless.

You misunderstand the purpose of therapy. Therapy doesn't solve your problems- that's ultimately something that you have to do. Therapy is to help you cope better with those problems. If you're having this much anxiety and self-loathing, then therapy is exactly what will help you sort it all out.

You would probably benefit from a support group for guys who are going through what you're going through. It is usually more affordable than individual therapy. It would help you to hear how others are coping with the issue and moving on with their lives.

 

[Ganoderma]

hi Dmhead,

I would like to ask you a question, and I would like it if you could provide me with an honest reply. However, don't feel the urge to give me an answer when you feel that this will make you uncomfortable. So giving the answer to me, over here in this forum, is totally up to you and no one will blame you if you don't give an answer.

Well, I am a male of 55, I am gay, and I have had several sexual encounters with other males. I have no kids, and have never had any interest in girls.

My parents decided to stop with being religious (both were raised in a christian family, be it different denominations) the day after they were married in 1955. When I was a small child, my parents sometimes send me to the church together with my granddad, so I would have a choice either to join that religion or not. On one way or another, this did not happen, so I am a non-believer (you might also call this an atheïst).

I would like to ask you a question about the Hell. For me, like all non-believers, his Hell does not exist, and that also means that I, and all other non-believers are not afraid to end in Hell.

What is your honest opinion about me, in regard to the chance to end in Hell? Do you think this will happen? And/or, do you think my chances to end in Hell are larger because I am (1) a non-believer, and (2) a gay male who has sex with other males?

Thanks in advance for an honest reply, and no need to feel guilty when you don't want to reply.

Best wishes and good luck.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Dude, you have no clue what the bible says, much less what you think "god" wants. It's time you delve into what the bible really says, and I mean from it's original Aramaic and Greek words. So much of what you think the bible says, is utter bullshit. Additionally, you need to study the book and understand all of it's flaws, inaccuracies, and plagerisms taken from other religions centuries before the bible or Christ came to be.

Have you honestly ever read your bible cover to cover, like you would with a novel? Be honest.

 

[dmhead]

Thanks everyone. I hope no one is affected by my negativity.

I don't plan to kill myself. I just have nothing to look forward to because I know my life is a lie and it must stay that way. It's not just me who might be gay and I don't want to be responsible for a heart attack. And not only do I have to stay in the closet, in the end it always scares me that I might be going to hell so I can't even enjoy myself secretly. It's lose/lose. My current situation is also "lose" but at least there's no hell and my family isn't ruined.

When I hear people say this, it's insulting to believe that the God you say you believe in would create a gay person to be wrong, immoral or sinful.

You can't have it both ways- if you believe there is a perfect Creator then who are you to judge the imperfections of what he created?

Unfortunately there's an answer for that too. The bible doesn't say BEING gay or having gay feelings is sinful. It says ACTING on them is. As a believer I'm "supposed" to repress those feelings. I know it sounds crazy and outdated, but it's the closest thing to God we have and it's scary. I know the bible was written by men but like I said, if God wants to "reward" those who believed in Him then he'd support the ones who followed the book that is believed to be His truth.

I wish it really was just about being gay, because then I would just not take religion seriously at all and make my life more simple (though there are other issues as well).

What is your honest opinion about me, in regard to the chance to end in Hell? Do you think this will happen? And/or, do you think my chances to end in Hell are larger because I am (1) a non-believer, and (2) a gay male who has sex with other males?

I have to say your question caught me a little off guard, so I hope you explain why you asked later. As for your question - it's really not my place to judge. I'm a harsh critic of myself but I have absolutely nothing against those who can actually overcome what I couldn't.

According to what you said, then no. I don't see you going to hell. You weren't raised a Christian. You've been a non-believer since you were a kid. I don't believe those who were raised to be a certain way will be judged that harshly. When religion isn't part of your family's life and you're not aware of the importance of sins, no one can blame you for having a free mind. Me on the other hand...I'm aware of everything and have been since I was a kid. There's a difference the way I see it.

 

[TX-Beau]

You don't have a decent life because you don't think you deserve one - and I bet that if you tried to tell yourself that there's nothing wrong with you and you DO deserve a decent happy life, that black monster in the back of your mind would rise up and stifle that thought before you even got through thinking it.

Try it and see.

What to do. well, frankly, you are depressed, probably clinically - and you need some help. Be it in here or from a professional, and I suggest a professional.

You're gay because you like cock and you want to find a male partner - your mother has nothing to do with it. Period. Telling yourself that is an excuse because it let's you blame her rather than face down what you are.

There is nothing wrong with being gay.

All your religious "logic," is really hackneyed. I bet what all of that really comes down to for you is gay=bad because the pastor told me so.

It's what that usually comes down to. Christians CAN'T agree if god hates fags or not, so how could the bible be that explicit? ALL of them pick and choose what they want to follow anyway - and if the book is wrong BECAUSE of men, then god has nothing to do with that and following mistakes is our own damn fault.

THERE IS NO SINGLE DEFINITION OF WHAT "CHRISTIANS" BELIEVE ABOUT GAYS!

If you choose a Christianity that hates you, that's on your head.

Anyway religion is the JUSTIFICATION for homophobia and self loathing NOT the cause. we hate ourselves because the culture we live in tells us the worst kind of pervert is a man who acts like a woman. It's deeply misogynistic. Being a traitor to your gender.

But that's bullshit too, and until you can make yourself see that, you won't change - and you make yourself see that by continually challenging the shit that got put in your head ESPECIALLY when it gets hard. You do that by being responsible to and for yourself - and by coming back and taking to all of us Just remember, we're not really a substitute for professional help - but we do understand.

You need to understand that no one can change you but you and if you're not willing to make the hard choices and do the hard thing, no one can do it for you.

Doesn't it piss you off that you have to deal with this crap because a bunch of haters forced you to deal with their shit? You didn't make this up, you didn't toss the shit, WHY is this about who YOU are?

Doesn't that make you mad as hell?

 

[dmhead]

Dude, you have no clue what the bible says, much less what you think "god" wants. It's time you delve into what the bible really says, and I mean from it's original Aramaic and Greek words. So much of what you think the bible says, is utter bullshit. Additionally, you need to study the book and understand all of it's flaws, inaccuracies, and plagerisms taken from other religions centuries before the bible or Christ came to be.

Have you honestly ever read your bible cover to cover, like you would with a novel? Be honest.

Honestly, no. I wouldn't call myself a religious person and I don't believe every single story there. But like I keep saying, it's the closest thing to God we have and if there is a God (and I believe there is) that's how he will probably see it.

It's not just the bible. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it "wrong" acording to all religions?

 

[TX-Beau]

There are plenty of religious practices that have no interest in homosexuality, and a few that are openly accepting, and a huge pool of religious people who aren't haters and just don't care no matter what the pastor says - and if you're not that religious why are you focusing on a right wing Fundamentalist Christian definition of sin?

Pick another one.

 

[KaraBulut]

Unfortunately there's an answer for that too. The bible doesn't say BEING gay or having gay feelings is sinful. It says ACTING on them is. As a believer I'm "supposed" to repress those feelings. I know it sounds crazy and outdated, but it's the closest thing to God we have and it's scary. I know the bible was written by men but like I said, if God wants to "reward" those who believed in Him then he'd support the ones who followed the book that is believed to be His truth.

Actually, it doesn't. It's amazing how many people have heard that from pulpits and take is as truth without every bothering to read the text.

You're probably talking about Leviticus 18?

How are you doing on Leviticus 19: "Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you."? Or Leviticus 11: "These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth... the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you"?

Bacon will send you to hell. Wearing garments with mixed fabrics is the path to damnation.

It's not just the bible. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it "wrong" acording to all religions?

Not all. Just the ones that have a big interest in producing more tithers in future generations.

Here's the deal: evangelical religions are really good at finding ways to make people feel like sinners. And they love to use that great line about "hate the sin, love the sinner" when it comes to gay people.

But there's a point where- after you've gone back the original greek and aramaic and you discover that what you've been told is completely wrong- you realize that it's easy to blame religion for your own self-loathing and fear.

This isn't about religion. It's about the fact that you're gay and you don't want to be.

 

[dmhead]

You don't have a decent life because you don't think you deserve one - and I bet that if you tried to tell yourself that there's nothing wrong with you and you DO deserve a decent happy life, that black monster in the back of your mind would rise up and stifle that thought before you even got through thinking it.

Try it and see.

What to do. well, frankly, you are depressed, probably clinically - and you need some help. Be it in here or from a professional, and I suggest a professional.

You're gay because you like cock and you want to find a male partner - your mother has nothing to do with it. Period. Telling yourself that is an excuse because it let's you blame her rather than face down what you are.

There is nothing wrong with being gay.

All your religious "logic," is really hackneyed. I bet what all of that really comes down to for you is gay=bad because the pastor told me so.

It's what that usually comes down to. Christians CAN'T agree if god hates fags or not, so how could the bible be that explicit? ALL of them pick and choose what they want to follow anyway - and if the book is wrong BECAUSE of men, then god has nothing to do with that and following mistakes is our own damn fault.

THERE IS NO SINGLE DEFINITION OF WHAT "CHRISTIANS" BELIEVE ABOUT GAYS!

If you choose a Christianity that hates you, that's on your head.

Anyway religion is the JUSTIFICATION for homophobia and self loathing NOT the cause. we hate ourselves because the culture we live in tells us the worst kind of pervert is a man who acts like a woman. It's deeply misogynistic. Being a traitor to your gender.

But that's bullshit too, and until you can make yourself see that, you won't change - and you make yourself see that by continually challenging the shit that got put in your head ESPECIALLY when it gets hard. You do that by being responsible to and for yourself - and by coming back and taking to all of us Just remember, we're not really a substitute for professional help - but we do understand.

You need to understand that no one can change you but you and if you're not willing to make the hard choices and do the hard thing, no one can do it for you.

Doesn't it piss you off that you have to deal with this crap because a bunch of haters forced you to deal with their shit? You didn't make this up, you didn't toss the shit, WHY is this about who YOU are?

Doesn't that make you mad as hell?

Honestly I'm so confused by my own situation that I can't even address some of the things you said, but the fact you actually took time to type so much to help is really nice. Thank you. That always surprises me about this place.

I did try to tell myself there's nothing wrong with being gay. I even experimented and tried to meet other gay people. But even when things seem to be looking up there's still that bad feeling like I'm a failure at the back of my mind all the time. Almost anything can trigger that feeling... seeing how unhappy my family is and how I can only make it worse, my dad talking about his brother's perfect kids and family, the obsession with kids - hearing my parents talk about grandkids, hearing people talk about religion and afterlife, even my brother listening to corny pop music pushes me right back into the closet. Now that feeling is no longer just at the back of my mind, it's my life. I didn't succeed in anything regardless of my sexuality.

Let me tell you a really embarassing story. When I was 15 I laid down in bed and told God that if what I'm doing is wrong then he should give me a real sign because I can't sarcifice my life not knowing for sure. I went to sleep with the computer in my room, locked with a password, downloading a gay porn movie. When I woke up I saw the computer shut itself down. No viruses or anything, the power didn't go off, everything else was working, but that download was ruined and the computer was off.

I know how ridiculous that sounds, but stuff like that is just weird. It's most likely a weird coincidence but I have so much shit inside my head it seems beyond repair. I believe what you say about me being brainwashed is true. Society has a lot to do with it. Maybe I did make religion even more important in my mind because I tried to find more justification. But it's too deep now and it's an actual fear, same with my brother. I have really messed myself up.

and if the book is wrong BECAUSE of men, then god has nothing to do with that and following mistakes is our own damn fault.

I hate to say I disagree with that part... but I'd say God would either not LET the book be wrong (if he can control everything) or at least not judge those who believed it.

You asking if it makes me mad... I was so anti-religion at one point that I wouldn't even celebrate some holidays. But I can't be that cynical because I feel like there's a God. I even developed some sort grudge against innocent, religious straight people. I hate religion and I hate myself for believing in it but I just believe in God.

 

[TX-Beau]

You asking if it makes me mad... I was so anti-religion at one point that I wouldn't even celebrate some holidays. But I can't be that cynical because I feel like there's a God. I even developed some sort grudge against innocent, religious straight people. I hate religion and I hate myself for believing in it but I just believe in God.

Friend, what I was getting at, and what Kara said much more succinctly (damn his black soul) Is that you dislike yourself because of culture, NOT because of God.

Back when slaverly was morally and socially acceptable, slavers loved to say it was divinely dictated, because it said so in the Bible, and indeed it does say in the bible that slaves must obey thier masters.

Does that make slavery divinely dictated? Does it?

Slavery ceased to be religiously acceptable because culturally people opened their eyes and saw it for the obscenity it was.

CULTURE was being JUSTIFIED through some obscure verses in the bible BECAUSE PEOPLE ALREADY THOUGHT that black people were cattle.

That changed BECAUSE CULTURE CHANGED - and you won't find a single Christian claiming that anymore. Even though those same verses that were indisputable proof that balck people should obey thier white masters are still right there in the Bible just where they always were.

So long as you go to God (or really one very punitive and extreme version of him) looking for solutions to your problem you will never find them BECAUSE YOU ALREADY THINK you are damned and will see in religion what you already believe.

You think that because of culture, and you justify it with religion - and you aren't the first, and won't be the last.

God - if he's up there made you you, not someone else, he didn't make you a sinner and he didn't make you a saint - and he made you gay. How incredibly arrogant of you to think you should be someone else.

 

[TX-Beau]

I hate to say I disagree with that part... but I'd say God would either not LET the book be wrong (if he can control everything) or at least not judge those who believed it.

I didn't answer this because it gets into arguments of whether there is a God in the first place - and the suspicion that you never stopped believing at all or were ever anti-religion, but were just pissed off with God - which is not the same thing or the focus here.

 

[dmhead]

Actually, it doesn't. It's amazing how many people have heard that from pulpits and take is as truth without every bothering to read the text.

You're probably talking about Leviticus 18?

How are you doing on Leviticus 19: "Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you."? Or Leviticus 11: "These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth... the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you"?

Bacon will send you to hell. Wearing garments with mixed fabrics is the path to damnation.


Not all. Just the ones that have a big interest in producing more tithers in future generations.

Here's the deal: evangelical religions are really good at finding ways to make people feel like sinners. And they love to use that great line about "hate the sin, love the sinner" when it comes to gay people.

But there's a point where- after you've gone back the original greek and aramaic and you discover that what you've been told is completely wrong- you realize that it's easy to blame religion for your own self-loathing and fear.

Okay, I know I said I'm not that religious, but I wasn't raised to eat bacon or sea food. It's not because I personally believe it's sinful or anything, I was just raised that way. My dad's against it so we just respect that.

We're also living at a different era now. Even though I don't eat bacon, I know choice of food doesn't actually matter. Having anal sex does "matter" from a creational point of view, it can't bring anything but pleasure. I do agree that "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing as you put it is extremely convenient too. I really don't know... I'm being difficult on purpose because I want your posts to shut me down. I don't want to be right. If I'm right I'm dead.

There's plenty of good arguments against organized religion, but I can't truly break away from things I've always believed in.

This isn't about religion. It's about the fact that you're gay and you don't want to be.

That's not true. It's true that some 14 year olds probably know themselves better than I do right now, but religion really is one of the reasons why I never really accepted myself. The family thing is the first concern in my mind, but religion also plays a role.

 

[dmhead]

I'm finally starting to feel exhausted after getting only 5-6 hours of sleep in the past 48 hours, so I'll use this opportunity and go to bed. I will comment later when I can really read everything seriously...thanks.

 

[TX-Beau]

We're also living at a different era now. Even though I don't eat bacon, I know choice of food doesn't actually matter. Having anal sex does "matter" from a creational point of view, it can't bring anything but pleasure. I do agree that "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing as you put it is extremely convenient too. I really don't know... I'm being difficult on purpose because I want your posts to shut me down. I don't want to be right. If I'm right I'm dead.

Christ is quite clear that the sins of other people are not your concern to love or hate. His teachings are a guide for YOU to live your life.

Sex has never been just about birth, and usually it's always about pleasure. There would be no contraception (which has always existed in one form or another efficient or not.)

I challenge you to find one place in the Bible that explicitly says sex can only be about children or it's a sin. You can't, because it doesn't.

 

[hotatlboi]

You wont ever be happy unless you allow yourself to accept that you deserve happiness.

Case in point: the fact that your brother might be gay has nothing to do with your ability to have a happy and honest life. You've allowed yourself to believe that your happiness is secondary to others and that you don't deserve anything in life other than to feed others things they want to see.

 

[mano]

Stop defining every aspect of your existence by your sexuality. And I don't believe that "coming out" means that you take out an ad in the newspaper. I am truthful about my sexuality to those that need to know if I trust them. I trust my parents but they do not need to know what goes on in my bedroom. It is none of their business. I have chosen not to discuss it with them and that is my choice. I would suggest that you take control of your sexuality and have some fun with it. Stop letting it control you.

 

[Rolyo85]

Can't change...

Lemme fix that for ya:

I'd rather whine than change...

Sorry, I come to this forum to give advice, and I am aware it can be very difficult. But despite your saying that you want us to shut you down, I don't really see that. You seem to have it all perfectly figured out, you have answers (most of them REEKING of ignorance btw) to every argument, and you seem to have a very good comfort zone, surrounded by misery as you are.

Well boo hoo. If what you believe in is hurting you, stop believing in it and start believing in something new. If you really wanted to do it, you'd do it and not look for excuses why you can't.