dear sexually confusees: does this happen to you?

[corcoran]

so i've had some sexual confusion in my life in general. i get nervous around girls who seem to be attracted to me, especially if i do find them attractive, i think because i don't think i'll be able to fit the bill in terms of being manly enough to be a man in their lives (here i mean behaviorally--i'm not very aggressive/protective/competitive/even confident--and sexually--not very sexually experienced, dont' have much staying power, and am not very well endowed). i also don't want to lead them on, because i am also attracted to men, and if i'm gay, i don't want to be living some kind of lie. (i'll mention that i have had sex with both men and women, and liked different things about both, but usually crave gay sex more, which might be in part because i feel more likely to please both myself and my partner).

so meanwhile, last night i thought, 'hell, why don't i just come out and say i'm gay, outright? then at least i'm making some claim rather than being asexual.' but then the first thing i thought of was how, if i told these girls who were attracted to me that i'm gay, and if they were still interested, i'd totally want to feel them up and have sex with them, at the least out of curiosity, now that there would be no expectation on their end of anything beyond friendship and some safe experimentation. i got totally worked up and ended up jerking off thinking about it. does this seem odd to you?

also, whenever i see a good looking guy and his girlfriend around town, i'm never jealous of the girlfiend, i'm jealous of the guy. i wish i was him, the good looking, confident guy with the big dick (i assume, for envy's sake) and the prime catch. that lines up with the straight porn i watch too--i jerk off imagining myself as the hot guy fucking the hot girl. (Meanwhile, when it's gay porn, I almost always imagine myself on the bottom, which I've wanted to do but haven't yet succeeded at in real life.)

it's all confusing. i've been drawing my own mass of conclusions, of course, but i'm curious about yours. what do you think?

 

[puka-pride]

when any good looking girl flirts with me.. I blush... same with guys... but i'm pretty sure i'm all gay

 

[Un_Golfo]

Do you know about bisexuality? It's maybe what you feel now. And it's not that bad!

 

[hanshansen]

Corcoran, I've got no conclusions at all - this is just so close to what I have tended to feel, and I'm just as confused. At least you are not totally alone! I suspect we both have self-esteem issues and are afraid that we won't be able to meet women's expectations, and there is also something about feeling more free to explore one's 'sensitive' side in a gay relationship.

I'll let you know when any revelations hit me in my case ....

 

[Riverrick]

It sounds like you aren't ready to attach any label to your sexuality. If you must, it might be safest to go with bisexual. That way you've told them that you are interested in guys but like girls still also.

Confusion is normal in the early stages of coming out. Take your time.

 

[hanshansen]

I didn’t have time to give this much thought earlier. As I say, I’ve just started coming to terms with this myself, so what I’ve got to say is all extremely tentative, but since I can identify with this so much (down into all the details) who knows, you might find my thoughts useful.

I think there’s an issue somewhere here concerning what we think women expect and want from a partner (in bed and outside) vs the feelings we might be able to experience in a gay relationship. I mean, when I think about having sex with women, I think of myself as the active patner, I get turned on by the idea of giving pleasure to them .... I’m not turned on at all by the idea of fucking a guy. When I’ve looked at gay porn I’ve always identified with the guy having things done to him. And I know there are gay guys who like being ‘the man’, whereas, as much as I enjoy fantasizing about it, the idea of always having to be ‘the man’ with a woman gives me performance anxiety ... I think these are different sides of my personality and I’ve ended up projecting them onto different sexes ... and as you say, this goes beyond sex, sometimes I want to be passive and protected, rather than doing the protecting and supporting.

In terms of implications and conclusions – I’m not sure. I think you need to get to see women you like as friends and start by treating them as such, while enjoying being around them. I’m less convinced than I used to be that all women think about men in the same way. The worst mistake I have made with girls was thinking I had to act in a certain way around them and trying to be something I am not. I ended up really uncomfortable and getting cold on them, they got hurt, and I was left with the guilt.

Can’t tell you if either of us is going to decide to define ourselves as gay in the end. Some people here seem to think that your relationships are going to be unstable if you’re bi, others have tried to pursuade me that if I really care about someone emotionally I’ll be able to commit. All I’ll say at this point is that I think (going back to what I said earlier) it helps knowing what you respond to physically and emotionally in a guy or a girl, and under what conditions you're able to call on those feelings.

 

[hanshansen]

Corcoran, here's a quick question for you: last night, on TV I came across this really crappy chick flick with Bryan Greenberg and Uma Thurman in it. Bryan Greenberg is the type of guy who, in reality, I find really threatening: taller than me, much better physique, and above all, knows every minute that he's God's gift to women and oozes sexual self-confidence. On TV I have to admit, I thought he was incredibly hot ... so much so that I got really turned on. But, I can't picture myself with Bryan Greenberg in any way that makes any sense, so I ended up getting off imagining myself as Bryan Greenberg, having sex with a woman who looked a lot like Laetitia Casta (much more my type than Uma Thurman). Does this make any sense to you? If not, I must be a lot gayer than you are .

 

[corcoran]

hey hanshansen, everything you've written seems familiar to me. it's nice, at least, to get the affirmation. it's hard to do what you've said with female friends, though: to let those friendships just evolve as friendships. i've been able to do that with female friends who are gay or with whom i knew there was absolutely no sexual attraction happening on either end, but with most straight girls i pretty much always feel like there's an open possibility, if not always an invitation, to take things further. and that's when i start to clam up and bring the evening to a close so i can hide in my room (metaphorically--well, maybe sometimes literally). i think you're right, though, that it's a dangerous thing in this case to be assuming that girls want particular things. and maybe i just have to let things happen as they will, and learn from them. but it does get hard to turn off my inner monologue.

as far as defining myself goes, i have been mostly okay with roaming the sexual spectrum and not claiming a particular sexuality, but it seems like that ends up putting me in places where others aren't clear on whether there's a possibility with me or not. i get that: it seems like i'm uncertain. i'm okay waiting to see who i'm able to make a connection with and to follow that connection, whatever, but i'm a little worried that without claiming a sexual identity, or even by claiming a bisexual one, i'll be deterring possible connectors.

meanwhile, yes, the bryan greenberg fantasy seems pretty right on. one thing i would add, on my end, is that part of what would be attractive about him would be his unambiguous straightness, and the way he acts with women. i wouldn't want to change that in fantasizing about him, which might be another reason to imagine myself as him rather than imagining myself having sex with him (which, like you, i can't really do anyway because it doesn't make sense).

 

[hanshansen]

meanwhile, yes, the bryan greenberg fantasy seems pretty right on. one thing i would add, on my end, is that part of what would be attractive about him would be his unambiguous straightness, and the way he acts with women. i wouldn't want to change that in fantasizing about him, which might be another reason to imagine myself as him rather than imagining myself having sex with him (which, like you, i can't really do anyway because it doesn't make sense).

All of that hits the nail right on the head, as does everything else in your post. Who would have thought. Only thing with me is that being OK 'roaming the spectrum' (in the sense of not hiding these feelings from myself) is still fairly new. Anyway, got to get off to work!

 

[hanshansen]

hey hanshansen, everything you've written seems familiar to me. it's nice, at least, to get the affirmation. it's hard to do what you've said with female friends, though: to let those friendships just evolve as friendships. i've been able to do that with female friends who are gay or with whom i knew there was absolutely no sexual attraction happening on either end, but with most straight girls i pretty much always feel like there's an open possibility, if not always an invitation, to take things further. and that's when i start to clam up and bring the evening to a close so i can hide in my room (metaphorically--well, maybe sometimes literally). i think you're right, though, that it's a dangerous thing in this case to be assuming that girls want particular things. and maybe i just have to let things happen as they will, and learn from them. but it does get hard to turn off my inner monologue.

as far as defining myself goes, i have been mostly okay with roaming the sexual spectrum and not claiming a particular sexuality, but it seems like that ends up putting me in places where others aren't clear on whether there's a possibility with me or not. i get that: it seems like i'm uncertain. i'm okay waiting to see who i'm able to make a connection with and to follow that connection, whatever, but i'm a little worried that without claiming a sexual identity, or even by claiming a bisexual one, i'll be deterring possible connectors.

OK, some more thoughts on this, with the usual caveats. On second thoughts I agree that my suggestion for how to approach women doesn't go to the root of the problem. In fact, I'm increasingly thinking I'll only make real progress on this once I have a (hopefully growing) circle of straight and gay friends where my (bi) preferences are common knowledge and basically understood (obviously, that can only happen once I understand myself better). The basic problem is that we don't want to lie to and disappoint people, but we also don't want them to think that nothing could happen, right? This is the only solution to that conundrum that I can think of. You could just be friends with the straight women or the gay guys in that group and feel free to get to know them as people, while leaving open the possibility that something more might develop. And if a relationship did develop, the person who reciprocated your interest would already know where you are at and have drawn their own conclusions. I seriously see no other option. I just can't see myself telling strange women or strange guys on a first date that I'm bi, explaining to them what that means, and watching them preparing to make tracks. But I also don't want to give people the impression I'm something I'm not and deal with the fallout later.

Also, regarding self-definition - I think it's not enough to be comfortable with not having a fixed sexuality, you need to understand what attracts you physically and emotionally, how those physical and emotional needs interact, what circumstances trigger them. I've only just started seeing things more clearly in that area. Until you know yourself in that respect, any relationship will probably be a minefield because your feelings will be too unpredictable. To be honest (people have pointed this out to me on another thread) this is probably a learning process we would have to go through even we were totally straight or totally gay. I mean, people find that different women push different buttons for them, and lots of people have anxieties that a particular partner won't be able to satisfy all their needs all the time (which is probably an unrealistic expectation anyway). It's a question of being able to manage those different desires and needs in a positive way.

 

[hanshansen]

In fact, I'm increasingly thinking I'll only make real progress on this once I have a (hopefully growing) circle of straight and gay friends where my (bi) preferences are common knowledge and basically understood (obviously, that can only happen once I understand myself better).

Don't know if this needs adding - I fully realise this is an easy thing to propose and a lot harder to do. I have not yet made a start on it. It's just what I see as logically necessary given my ultimate aims.

Also, as for self-knowledge, wasn't suggesting that this is something you can or should force - I guess it's a mainly a matter of being open to any relevant inner cues, whatever they might mean for a given theory. (That said, it was quite an effort to keep that inner monologue down at work today.)

 

[drhladnjak]

And if a relationship did develop, the person who reciprocated your interest would already know where you are at and have drawn their own conclusions. I seriously see no other option. I just can't see myself telling strange women or strange guys on a first date that I'm bi, explaining to them what that means, and watching them preparing to make tracks. But I also don't want to give people the impression I'm something I'm not and deal with the fallout later.

Generally, I'd say it's not a good idea to date your friends. If the relationship goes bad or awkward, you and the other person risk losing the entire circle and lots (LOTS) of drama. Another solution is to seek out other bi women and men to date. That way you'll both see eye to eye on this issue.

 

[hanshansen]

Generally, I'd say it's not a good idea to date your friends. If the relationship goes bad or awkward, you and the other person risk losing the entire circle and lots (LOTS) of drama. Another solution is to seek out other bi women and men to date. That way you'll both see eye to eye on this issue.

I guess I had a large and loose network, with lots of branches, in my mind So what does that mean - personal ads? I'm not keen on dating people I don't already know.

 

[neruda]

[Cant believe you blush Puka, you seemed the cocky self confident type, Ive always envied.]

As for me I think Im innately shy - wee bit on the underconfident side - maybe thats why I kinda used to stutter around pretty women and men for a looooong time.

Changed over the years...but still have that awkwardness when a come across a REALLY handsome man.

With women no more..... in fact its an all natural relationship (barring sex!)

 

[drhladnjak]

I guess I had a large and loose network, with lots of branches, in my mind So what does that mean - personal ads? I'm not keen on dating people I don't already know.

Your focus should simply be on meeting other people whose company you enjoy. If something romantic or sexual develops out of that, great. If not, at least you still have friends you get along with. You can meet people online in chatrooms or personal ads. I've always had bad luck with it, but I know lots of people who have met their long-term boy or girlfriend in such ways.

There are other ways of meeting people such as doing volunteer work or joining some sort of club. Personally, I think that's the best way to go because right from the start you'll have something in common with people you meet there (you're all volunteering or in the club because of a shared interest) and unlike online or in a bar, such situations tend to not be primarily focused on sex (better for making friends first).

Ultimately, you need to go where other gay or bi people are and interact, whether that's online or in real life.

 

[puka-pride]

[Cant believe you blush Puka, you seemed the cocky self confident type, Ive always envied.]

lol I might seem cocky..... but I'm actually really shy in person at first.. you can ask anyone on this site that has met me I take a little while to open up...

 

[corcoran]

thanks for all your responses. this forum has been a great outlet, and i appreciate your thoughts. i have another mental process to report on--maybe hanshansen or someone else has some thoughts:

i find that, at least in real life, i'm only attracted to/interested in men who represent a more perfect version of myself--smarter, kinder, more engaging, more generous, more talented, taller, more athletic, more masculine. it gets more specific, too--he should be around my height but slightly taller, about my build but more muscular, at least my age, if not older by 3-5 years, thus wiser/more mature. a strange change in the last few years as i've gained a little more self-esteem: whereas i used to find chest hair (of which i have plenty) to be a turn-off, now it's a qualification; same thing with facial hair since i grew mine in. it even looks like it might happen with balding as i start to lose my hair. it's always been this way for me--the guys i've been interested in have all been similar to me but somehow "better" than me in my estimation [creepy confession: i'm non-white, and only attracted to white guys; no need to read between the lines here]. sexually, i want them to be the aggressive top.

so, all of this seems very readable to me as having to do with self-esteem, self-worth, self-discrimination, self-hatred, etc, even wanting the better version of myself to physically enter me. it seems lazy, masturbatory, and even impossible to seek out men like this, and even if i were to find someone "better" than me in all of these ways, i'd have nothing to offer that person. i don't figure this is an uncommon set of desires, but it's the thing that makes me most nervous about my sexuality. While I'm getting more adjusted to the possibility of owning up to pure homosexuality, this doesn't even seem to be about other people. it just seems like straight-up narcissism to me, and I can't imagine it will ever land me in a satisfying relationship. I don't know how to get over it or past it--i actually don't have such a low self-opinion; there are things i think i'm great at. i can just always see the potential for being better than myself, and i project that desire onto potential mates.

 

[hanshansen]

Hi Cocoran,

I don’t know all your circumstances, but to the extent that you’re like me I think you’re right and this probably is about deeper self-esteem issues (which have also been a big problem for me). Possibly the most helpful advice I have got in relation to this is that this means you need to get at what is behind your low self esteem, instead of analysing your sexual feelings.

There are lots of things that I’m good at, too. But I’ve come to realize that I have these fears of rejection (which make me constantly monitor whether other people like or accept me, and mean my mood does a nose-dive whenever I think they don’t) which probably largely date back to a couple of bad experiences I had in junior high school, which is much more brutal and Darwinian than the environment I now work in. In other words, they’re no longer adaptive. (I just remembered that a fellow student at graduate school a few years ago who spent time in one of the world’s war zones actually described me as ‘shell-shocked’.)

To some extent posting here has helped me start dealing with some of these self-confidence issues. I’m more self-confident around other people than I used to be. The catalyst seems to have been that someone here pointed out to me that I needn’t be ashamed of my shyness: people are often more forgiving of shyness than you might think (it’s true, so long as you don’t push them away). So far I’ve only gotten positive reinforcement from other people.

I’ve also become more comfortable with the idea of being gay at least in the sense that I don’t monitor and self-censor my feelings as much as I used to. That was actually much harder than I expected - I've gone through some sleepless nights. But some people managed to convince me that thinking of myself as gay did not mean that alarm bells would sound, people would see me as a raging queen, I'd start being attracted to all my friends etc. (So far experience has borne this out.) As a result I’m now slightly less confused about what I’m feeling and I feel happier about my emotions. (I’m still attracted to some women some of the time, but how strongly and regularly no longer matters that much for my ego.)

Has that changed my pattern of sexual attraction? On the whole, yes. I’ve not got nearly as much performance anxiety regarding sex with women as I used to have. So if anything I'd enjoy sex with girls more. But I no longer get that worried if my feelings towards girls seem to go away for a while, and I’m much happier (I get more aroused) exploring the idea of being intimate with a gay guy than I was (rather than just identifying with someone in gay porn). What I mean is that ‘blockages’ that seem to have been there aren’t as bad … So maybe because I feel less repressed in general and because my sexual urges are finding other targets, I’m finding it very easy not to feel this unproductive, ‘narcissistic’ attraction you’re talking about that I used to feel towards uber-straight guys. Since I last posted I don’t recall having had another Bryan Greenberg moment . It used to be awful being around that type of guy: I’d feel the sexual tension, feel threatened, avoid eye contact etc. Now that that’s there much less, they are friendlier as well.

Don’t know if that helps. For what it’s worth, here’s a thread where people helped me start to nut out some of these issues. I got lots of good advice:

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137434