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On Topic Discussion Herd Mentality

NotHardUp1

What? Me? Really?
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After watching part of An American Crime, about the torture and murder of Sylvia Likens in Indianapolis, Indiana, I read up a bit more on the victim and the events. She was termporarily abandoned with her sister by her parents who were carnies. The parents went off to the East Coast to work carnivals with their young sons while their daughters were left with an acquaintance who promised to board them for $20 per week. Unsuprisingly, the payments dwindled and the acquaintance began tormenting the girls as venting of her anger. The abuse eventually turned to the older daughter only, evidently out of jealousy, the "caretaker" woman having many children of her own and divorced three times.

Over three months in 1965, the girl was tortured, imprisoned, beaten, and starved to death. All that is shocking, but with precedents from other abusive "caregivers" and "parents" who were sadistic and cruel in other such cases.

The distinction in the Likens case was the participation by the children in the home plus outsider abuse by juvenile friends of the family. It was a very dark chapter in the history of humans, but it didn't involve insanity. Repeated examinations of the "caregiver" proved that she was not insane, only mean. The woman and the youths were tried collectively in one case, having acted in concert to murder the girl. All but one were convicted of either first-degree murder, or manslaughter.

All that is prelude. The topic is herd mentality, sometimes referred to as pack mentality. As I read those words, I was immediately taken back to my elementary school days, and the hurt I felt as I increasingly observed it in children around me. Cruel behaviors abounded, and it was noticeable that the same children were decent when one-on-one, but were something different altogether when there was group bullying on the playground, in the neighborhood, at sports events, wherever.

Later, I heard much of peer pressure, but that didn't actually fit the behavior. The children were not being pressured to conform with the cruelty of the pack, but were opting to do so in order to seek acceptance and status within the pack.

The last time I taught high school, in the late 1990's, I again directly observed savage behavior among teens, who, as a mob, participated in cheering and rallying to a vicious fight, enjoying it and encouraging it and recording it as an entertaining event. I broke up the same fight, but was shaken by the horror of the enthusiasm by teens for such brutality.

The Likens case has been compared with Golding's Lord of the Flies. I admit, I've always liked that novel because I thought it told the truth about humanity, if a bit contrived.

From a philosophical point of view, many today espouse the idea that only demented or deficient people do violence. My experience is quite the opposite. Normal people willingly participate in violence and/or cruel acts even as young children, and are only governed or mitigated by social mores.

What do you think? What herd mentality or pack behavior did you observe as a child.

For the sake of psychology and topic, let's keep the political aspersions out of this unless you personally witnessed something like that directly, as a youth or child.
 
In grade school it wasn't the whole class or school that would go after a certain child. It was a group with a leader (though unofficial) that fell into lock step to beat up or torment a single boy because he was "different" some were quiet, some social awkward, one boy that I remember was quite smart and paid for it. As to why? Humans kill for sport.
 
As a victim of bullying in early grade school, I experienced it firsthand. Being freakishly tall with fucked up teeth and huge doe eyes, it wasn't a specific bully or group, but anyone who felt threatened by my appearance: many species will destroy members who are born with deformities or are in some other way deficient. Luckily I grew out of my head by middle school so I never had to destroy the prom.

Compared to most other lifeforms, human beings are physically lame. We don't have tough hides or teeth and claws, so we rely on our intelligence to protect us. Herd mentality plays a large role in our survival as well. Activities like hunting and building shelter are more successful when done as a group. That's my take.

Although I have noticed that the bigger the herd, the lower it's collective intelligence seems to become.
 
Some experiences:

When I was in 6th grade in a co-ed Catholic parish school, Linda, a lithe, lovely--beautiful, actually, in my memory--girl was picked by a few of the bully boys in our class to be the subject of derision, not to her face, if I remember correctly, but rather as a figure of jest amongst themselves. This culminated one day when a garbage can was overturned in the school playground, dubbed the "Linda Pit", and the bully boys then proceeded to push other students into the pit where they were then deemed to have caught Linda "cooties". I don't recall how it all ended, or if the the nuns ever intervened, but I remember that within a few weeks Linda had left the school. That I did nothing to defend her or find a way of consoling her (although we were not close) remains the most shameful incident of my life. I have tried to find her via the internet in order to apologize, but without success. I've talked with other classmates of the time and they have similar feelings of regret.

Nothing of this sort happened in high school. To his credit, the only bully in the class--a tall, dark and handsome bad boy with a famously rich surname, kicked out of all of his previous schools, only taunted other popular boys, never those socially inferior. We became great friends, an attraction of opposites, I suppose: he the consummate bad boy, I the good. (I imagined that our friendship gave me an edge I lacked. I also imagined our closeness protected me from his taunts.) I'd forgotten how mean he could be until a school reunion was coming up, and a friend--arguably the most popular boy in class--confided in me that he was afraid of seeing the guy again, so strong were his memories of being teased by him. There is a coda here, a good one: as it turned out, at the reunion the bad boy arrived, was perfectly charming to everyone, and even sought out our anxious classmate to apologize for his past behaviour.
 
When I lived in nyc I went to Catholic school and many were ridiculed but never for the way they dressed because we all dressed the same. We moved to the Boston area and I started the 7th grade and saw the same ridicule with the addition of how girls dressed added in. Fear of unwanted attention and humiliation leaves a scar even when it’s not directed at you. Is school supposed to toughen us up for the real world ahead? In rat studies it has been established that the quickest way an anxious rat can relieve his anxiety is to bite another rat. Some of us are rats.
 
In the 3rd grade, I remember a little classmate who was taunted more than me. She was a tragic figure. She was homely, talked with a sort of bawling speech, hair plaited in short, unattractivve pigtails, wearing outdated cateye glasses, and wearing leg braces from the knees down. She shuffled along, and apparently didn't even get sympathy from our teacher, an older, tough woman, who walked with a profound limp from a broken leg or hip. I remember the poor girl crying a lot. She was mocked mercilessly on the playground.

Another boy was fat, and I remember him being taunted for it. I think his name was Benny. I don't remember either one after that grade, but desegregation was in work and my town was being redistricted during my 3rd, 4th, and 5th grades, so some kids moved away, etc.

I've never attended any class reunions. I was teased by my "friends" in junior high and some in senior high, particularly in band, because my hair was greasy a lot until I started washing it every morning outside at Grandmother's when I lived with her. She had no hot water heater, so I had to heat it on the stove, and then took it outside to ladle over my head because it was easier since there was no shower or bathtub.

Poverty is often the target of shaming when kids who are not poor are involved. Kids have no idea what other kids lives are like when they come from different sides of the tracks.
 
^
There was a boy in my class in both primary and secondary school. He was "slow", very slow, including his speech, which was also slightly distorted. At at another time and in another place he would have been the village idiot. His parents were much older than the other parents, and his father was the caretaker of our church, so of lower status. I never remember him being mocked. If anything, I think we felt protective of him. Ironically, his name was Eugene.

There was another boy, Bruno, who was fat and not particularly bright, but very affable, hard-working and well-liked. In time he became a lineman on both our grade school and high school football teams, playing center. Again, I don't remember him being teased by other students, but I do remember one of our teachers comparing the rounded vowels of his given name to his fat body, which led to much laughter in the classroom. What a jerk that priest was: I can't imagine what would have led to such cruelty. At our 10 year HS reunion he proudly related to me that he had risen from box boy at our local grocery store to manager, and was now an executive with the chain.
 
The life-long torture of putting up with the same extended family jerks virtually from birth, being married to them by the mere accident of being born the same year and being clamped together under the same. literally, class. For life. Your lifetime.
 
At various times, I was bullied.

Two of my bulliers ended up dead by their own means.

One ended up being slammed down to pot hole duty as a journalist because he came after my clients 30 years later.

My bullying employer and all these others in high school helped toughen me the fuck up
.
I was lucky. I was clever. And smart. And ended up living well as the best revenge.

But Jesus Christ in a cracker. When I called down curses on my tormentors, I have never cared how horribly they have died or come to nothing in their lives.

I look for Grace in other ways.
 
The last time I taught high school, in the late 1990's, I again directly observed savage behavior among teens, who, as a mob, participated in cheering and rallying to a vicious fight, enjoying it and encouraging it and recording it as an entertaining event. I broke up the same fight, but was shaken by the horror of the enthusiasm by teens for such brutality.

The Likens case has been compared with Golding's Lord of the Flies. I admit, I've always liked that novel because I thought it told the truth about humanity, if a bit contrived.

From a philosophical point of view, many today espouse the idea that only demented or deficient people do violence. My experience is quite the opposite. Normal people willingly participate in violence and/or cruel acts even as young children, and are only governed or mitigated by social mores.
Most of the examples given in this thread we are all familiar with, we either have been the object of the ridicule or witnessed it from a distance and didn’t want to get any closer risking becoming a target yourself. A survival tactic no doubt but we are comprised as the perpetrators are allowed to think no one complained.

But my larger point is that the fight NotHardUp1 broke up is something different from anything I ever saw in school. 25 yrs after I graduated a similar first occurred off school grounds but was very well attended. Unlike the bullying and ridicule that occurs in school which is hard to avoid this could have been avoided but half the school was there.

The single victim was badly beaten and kicked in the head, back and legs at the very end of the ambush by more than one student. How anyone could watch that fight and cheer it on as was done sickens me…..kicking a man when he’s down how very macho. This is a herd with a capital H.

Sure when this came to light parents were going to have serious talks with their children but I doubt they ever did because they didn’t want to know. When teaching history we leave out the really nasty stuff that actually reflects on our species……we don’t want to admit some things that humans do. As an example when teaching about the Holocaust trains stuffed with Jews going to one concentration camp or another and the noxious air that awaits them are ok to teach as it was those fanatical nazis who did it not ordinary people so no worry. But in the mid 30’s ordinary German citizens were allowed and encouraged to commit whatever violence they wished on Jews just walking down the streets. Many were knocked down, punched and kicked and having shown how Jews should be treated just move on. Many many Germans participated in this ‘teaching of the Jews’ but it’s never taught because it strikes too close to home.

The parents of those kids who were involved in those fights would much rather believe their kid shouldn’t have been there but kids are kids and they will never ask a stinking thing for fear it will strike way too close to home. Bad news for those parents failing to ask the hard questions comprises you just as young kids are comprised for what they see and remain silent about. This is the stuff of tragedy and Greek tragedy at that as it is our fears that lead directly to our moral failings.
 
^


"Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus (43–42 BC)...used proscriptions to rid themselves of their enemies and to acquire land for their legions and funds for themselves. About 300 senators and knights were proscribed, including Cicero. Many of the proscribed escaped, and more than a few were later restored to their privileges."
 
Most of the examples given in this thread we are all familiar with, we either have been the object of the ridicule or witnessed it from a distance and didn’t want to get any closer risking becoming a target yourself. A survival tactic no doubt but we are comprised as the perpetrators are allowed to think no one complained.

But my larger point is that the fight NotHardUp1 broke up is something different from anything I ever saw in school. 25 yrs after I graduated a similar first occurred off school grounds but was very well attended. Unlike the bullying and ridicule that occurs in school which is hard to avoid this could have been avoided but half the school was there.

The single victim was badly beaten and kicked in the head, back and legs at the very end of the ambush by more than one student. How anyone could watch that fight and cheer it on as was done sickens me…..kicking a man when he’s down how very macho. This is a herd with a capital H.

Sure when this came to light parents were going to have serious talks with their children but I doubt they ever did because they didn’t want to know. When teaching history we leave out the really nasty stuff that actually reflects on our species……we don’t want to admit some things that humans do. As an example when teaching about the Holocaust trains stuffed with Jews going to one concentration camp or another and the noxious air that awaits them are ok to teach as it was those fanatical nazis who did it not ordinary people so no worry. But in the mid 30’s ordinary German citizens were allowed and encouraged to commit whatever violence they wished on Jews just walking down the streets. Many were knocked down, punched and kicked and having shown how Jews should be treated just move on. Many many Germans participated in this ‘teaching of the Jews’ but it’s never taught because it strikes too close to home.

The parents of those kids who were involved in those fights would much rather believe their kid shouldn’t have been there but kids are kids and they will never ask a stinking thing for fear it will strike way too close to home. Bad news for those parents failing to ask the hard questions comprises you just as young kids are comprised for what they see and remain silent about. This is the stuff of tragedy and Greek tragedy at that as it is our fears that lead directly to our moral failings.
But let's protect them from female nipples and alcohol.
God bless.
Amen.

The closest I ever got to being bullied was in swimming practice: one was barely that, being the retarded macho type who would merely crap some "faggot"... the other was a bit pushier, still verbal, only he seemed to truly get off on it... so one day, as I was leaving with the rest still putting their clothes on, I felt to pissed I kicked a three-feet high bin against him: he was amazed and pissed, and I that was the end of it... It might have been the end of some term or something, because I do not recall any opportunity the next week or anytime after that episode.
 
In HS I pissed some guy or a couple of guys sometime, but he was always advised not to go against a 'nice guy' like me... my inner female canis was yet to bloom.
 
^
"Mark Antony, Octavian, and Lepidus (43–42 BC)...used proscriptions to rid themselves of their enemies and to acquire land for their legions and funds for themselves. About 300 senators and knights were proscribed, including Cicero. Many of the proscribed escaped, and more than a few were later restored to their privileges."
Wasn't Cicero asked to take his life by the emperor? Didn't he drink poison?
 
Wasn't Cicero asked to take his life by the emperor? Didn't he drink poison?
Lazy me. I looked it up. Beheaded by his assassins. Noble Romans, my ass.

Great men should not die as dogs, and Cicero was among the best of their philosophers, if not the best of their politicians.
 
The worse part of being bullied is having to live daily with anger towards the perpetrators or maybe self loathing for having "done something" to bring it on. Being insecure and having a poor self image will bring on more bullying. Avoiding eye contact, a poor posture and other types of body language sends out a signal to those who are looking for a person to victimize. It is a vicious cycle. I was asked by teachers why I couldn't "get along". Or what I had done to make the others hit me.

I was under so much stress from being bullied both at home and at school that I developed a terrible rash on both of my arms. I had asthma and just tuned out at school, I was only there physically. After being sent to a juvenile home the rash disappeared as did the asthma. I had failed the 6th grade twice and at the boys home I was placed in the 8th grade which was proper for my age, I had sat out the entire 7th grade as the public school had expelled me. I passed the 8th grade with A's and B's.

Was I bullied in the juvenile home? Not really, I had the hell beat out of me on my second or third day there but the "tough" guy in our cottage. He wanted to fight and I stood up to him. You would think that a juvenile home would be more stressful than my home or a public school. It wasn't, we were all misfits of sorts.

I was there a few months when I realized that there wasn't anything really wrong with me. It was my mother who called me names and would tell me to "go suck myself" and my older brother who threatened me and told me how dumb I was. It was teachers that stood with the herd because it was easier to deal with one misfit kid than to deal with a half a dozen little assholes.

Now, the self hatred had fled. I had learned that I was just fine. I gained self confidence. When I came home after a year and a half I wasn't afraid. I can't say that I wasn't F'd up from all of this. I had developed OCD and later was diagnosed with PTSD. But, I can say this, I wasn't going to live my life in hatred towards those that had wronged me. If I did that then they would win. I pray daily,
I ask God daily to bless and help all who ever wronged me. It is nearly impossible to be hateful or angry towards those for whom you pray.
 
I ask God daily to bless and help all who ever wronged me. It is nearly impossible to be hateful or angry towards those for whom you pray.
I'm very rarely moved or touched by overtly religious statements by public figures or celebrities, but one exception has been Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Despite all the partisan conflice, and Constitutional struggle, I believe that Pelosi was absolutely authentic and sincere when she said that she prayed for the then president.

I'm not sure how that survived the vicious attack on her husband that Trump and Fox surely caused, or if it did, but I have admired Pelosi from that moment onward.

And her faith, in contrast to the Fundamentalist's god who doesn't even espouse to any of their dogma or known to be any sort of believer, is both stark and tragic.
 
Lazy me. I looked it up. Beheaded by his assassins. Noble Romans, my ass.

Great men should not die as dogs, and Cicero was among the best of their philosophers, if not the best of their politicians.
Cicero was a great noble pitbull in the Republic's foul kennel.

Not the fact that he lost or that he was murdered, but that he lost taking the stance he did, shows that there were better politicians, thankfully for Rome.

That he was among the best, even the best of Roman philosophers, is not saying much about Cicero's thinking powers: he was a great stylist (his main claim for posterity and glory) and popularizer of other people's ideas. His De senectute shows just how naively mediocre he can be for original and deep, sound original thought even at the lowest level or common daily life.
 
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