"I like guys, but I'm not like them others"

[qget12]

I guess this is the right place for this.

The title of this thread is a much touted line in new members posts about how they think they might be gay, have discovered an attraction to dudes, think they might be Bi, etc etc. For many such people, it sums up their reluctance to be grouped in with people such as stereotypical flamboyant gays, drag queens, or others with typically "gay" traits when they see themselves as non-compatible with this "community" as it were.

Basically, they may have lived a largely straight life, either closeted or only just discovering their attraction to men, and don't feel comfortable becoming part of a "larger picture" simply because of who they may or may not be attracted to.

I understand the importance of a united front, so to speak, and visibility demonstrating that there are many different people that make up the LGBT community, and that people such as those above are simply hiding and denying the LGBT community the "all different kinds of people" appearance that it truly has.

But I also feel that such people's reluctance is very understandable, partly because I am somewhat one of those people. Despite my attraction to dudes, I don't consider myself part of the LGBT community, simply because I don't have much in common with wider "gay" or "queer" culture.

I think the problem with this goes beyond the creation of an "LGBT community" to the divisions of sexuality as Gay, Straight, or Bisexual. Gay or Straight, or the notion of sexual orientation is a relatively new concept, and one that is deeply flawed in my opinion. Despite arguments surround historical figures such as various Roman Emperors or Abe Lincoln etc, being described as Gay or Bisexual, the fact is, they weren't. They simply had sex or relationships with men (the Abe Lincoln argument is still going).

When looking at numbers of self identified gay people in populations, the percentage is often given as 3-8%, with it rarely reaching double digits. But taking into account people's actual sexual practices the number of those who have same sex attraction or who have had, or do have, sex with a member of the same sex, the number becomes much higher. This only takes into account the people who felt comfortable enough to confide this to whoever was taking the survey. The number climbs higher still when you take into account all those who have had such feelings but repressed them, or didn't feel comfortable in saying so.

Now, I'm not trying to get to the point of "Everyone is Bisexual", because even that is not right. I'm just using it to demonstrate how the binary notions of sexuality and the things associated with them serves to continue to marginalize the so-called LGBT community, as well as those who see themselves as straight, but have same sex attraction.

Meh, I'm pretty sure I had more points to make, but my mind has gone fuzzy. Anyway, does anybody agree or disagree or have anything to add?

 

[qget12]

I know I have some sort of attraction to guys. But when I read about people drooling over guys' nudes on here or talking about how they fell in love with a guy, I just can't relate.

Right now I'd say I'm attracted more to the body of certain men and the ACT of having sex with a man, because it's still relatively new to me. Part of what makes it seem so sexy is the "OOOOHH I DON'T USUALLY BANG GUYS!" sort of feeling. But if I really had zero attraction to guys, I wouldn't be able to get off on these fantasies or on gay porn. I probably wouldn't even get a boner.

So, I feel I'm bisexual, but this can be misleading. I'm not looking for a relationship with guys. I'm also not looking to bang every guy I see. But if I saw some guy who I thought was cute, was a little tipsy, and we were alone- well, you got me!

So what the hell is THAT? It'd probably be better to call myself "flexible" "heteroflexible" or "fluid". But some people would say this is an "out", a way to call myself straight and still fuck guys.

But I don't really feel like I belong to the straight culture or anything either. I hate gay paranoia, I hate the macho misogynistic bullshit, I love women, they make me horny and sometimes I objectify them, but they're people, not pieces of meat. So I have no interest in showing people how "straight" I am. On the contrary, I like the idea of being ambiguous, a little feminine, a little masculine, a little bit of a tease. Why shouldn't I be able to flirt with anyone I want?


Anyway, that's my take. I've always been outspoken for gay rights. But I too wouldn't want to be part of the LGBT movement or "group". Not that I don't support it, but it's for the same reason i never wanted to be in any other type of group. I wouldn't go to a gay bar for the same reason I don't go to straight bars: I hate bars and the club scene.

So I'm quite content to drift along, straight and gay at the same time, confusing the shit out of people and denying them any sort of answer (which in itself makes people think you're gay!). My real concern is if I really could be with men or if I just think it would be cool to have that kind of openness and it's more of a self-image thing.

Well this indeed proves my point. I mean, you don't easily fit into the notion of sexual orientation as Gay, Straight or Bi. The majority of people don't. They may fit into the social constructs of what it means to be "Straight" i.e. having only relationships with women, getting married etc, but there is a disparity between these constructs and actual sexual attraction.

And yeah, people will see your position as an "out", and sometimes it simply is for the "heterosexual convenience" but throughout history men have been married to women and had sex with men, and vice versa. And back then it wasn't because they were afraid of being gay, because the term or concept for "Gay" didn't exist. It is just the way people, in my opinion, are built. And notions such as Gay and Straight go against this, making it difficult for people to act in the way they truely wish.

And I'm not extolling the virtues of hypermasculinity, because that itself is unobtainable and is damaging to all people, male or female and whatever you're attracted to.

 

[AsianDream]

I guess this is the right place for this.

The title of this thread is a much touted line in new members posts about how they think they might be gay, have discovered an attraction to dudes, think they might be Bi, etc etc. For many such people, it sums up their reluctance to be grouped in with people such as stereotypical flamboyant gays, drag queens, or others with typically "gay" traits when they see themselves as non-compatible with this "community" as it were.

Basically, they may have lived a largely straight life, either closeted or only just discovering their attraction to men, and don't feel comfortable becoming part of a "larger picture" simply because of who they may or may not be attracted to.

The whole sexual labels and “GLBT community” issues can make for a confusing situation.

Back home in HK I am “Straight” as far as my family and (non-gay) friends are concerned. I still had plenty of sex with guys when I was there – just in great secrecy. Being 4000 miles away now makes my life a whole lot simpler.

I think in a society where a “normal” successful life is considered to be getting married and having kids – there is a lot of pressure to conform. But over the last 50 years in Western countries that has gradually changed – to such an extent that being Gay or BI is now more or less acceptable in most circles.

I guess it also depends how important sex and sexuality is to someone. I think for many people it’s not a very important part of their life. Mostly just in terms of them judging themselves by other things (job/money/status etc).

But – at least for many “Gay” Males – having sex with people is also a major social activity as well – many gay couples in a Long Term Relationship – still have regular sex with other people. Most of my friends are people I have had sex with. So much of the “Gay Community” isn’t really the same as a political party or interest group.

The BDSM / Fetish communities are even more closely linked.

So being Bi-sexual doesn't mean you're part of a GLBT community - only maybe in the eyes of others - also something that you needn't tell anyone about anyway.

 

[qget12]

The whole sexual labels and “GLBT community” issues can make for a confusing situation.

Back home in HK I am “Straight” as far as my family and (non-gay) friends are concerned. I still had plenty of sex with guys when I was there – just in great secrecy. Being 4000 miles away now makes my life a whole lot simpler.

I think in a society where a “normal” successful life is considered to be getting married and having kids – there is a lot of pressure to conform. But over the last 50 years in Western countries that has gradually changed – to such an extent that being Gay or BI is now more or less acceptable in most circles.

I guess it also depends how important sex and sexuality is to someone. I think for many people it’s not a very important part of their life. Mostly just in terms of them judging themselves by other things (job/money/status etc).

But – at least for many “Gay” Males – having sex with people is also a major social activity as well – many gay couples in a Long Term Relationship – still have regular sex with other people. Most of my friends are people I have had sex with. So much of the “Gay Community” isn’t really the same as a political party or interest group.

The BDSM / Fetish communities are even more closely linked.

So being Bi-sexual doesn't mean you're part of a GLBT community - only maybe in the eyes of others - also something that you needn't tell anyone about anyway.

I know that what groups people desire to be a part of and what group society sees them as being a part of are two different things, but in the majority of people's eyes they will see you as part of the LGBT community.

There is pressure to conform, but getting married and having children whilst you have an attraction to men doesn't equal conforming. The majority of people who do so, do it because they want to. Of course, whatever happens after that with regards to extra-marital affairs etc, is maybe part of another discussion.

I think there is too much pressure to conform either way. If a mostly "straight" person comes to these boards to tell how they are attracted to men in some capacity, a large portion of the replies will say something along the lines of "Well your not straight/ entirely straight/ in denial". The opposite is often that being "gay" is rigid and set, while "straight" is malleable.

 

[wooffy]

So much of the “Gay Community” isn’t really the same as a political party or interest group.

Agreed, and I would go a step farther. Many people who have never been in the GLBT or queer community (discounted a bar trip or two) make the mistake of seeing it as a monolithic block. Its not. It is one of the most diverse communities you will find anywhere, and it is built on a respect for that diversity.

Case in point: I am a member of the Ottawa Knights, a gay men's leather club founded in 1975. Most people have a lot of mental images of gay leather clubs.. and are surprised to hear that we have women and a trans-woman among our honorary members, and we produce an event with partners of all sexual orientations and genders, including those who aren't into leather or fetishes.

Think of it this way: does a tourist visiting for a week get to really know a community? Don't assume you would (or would not) fit in the queer community until you get to know it. Chances are there is a group, club, sports team, or whatever with people in it just like you.

 

[qget12]

Agreed, and I would go a step farther. Many people who have never been in the GLBT or queer community (discounted a bar trip or two) make the mistake of seeing it as a monolithic block. Its not. It is one of the most diverse communities you will find anywhere, and it is built on a respect for that diversity.

Case in point: I am a member of the Ottawa Knights, a gay men's leather club founded in 1975. Most people have a lot of mental images of gay leather clubs.. and are surprised to hear that we have women and a trans-woman among our honorary members, and we produce an event with partners of all sexual orientations and genders, including those who aren't into leather or fetishes.

Think of it this way: does a tourist visiting for a week get to really know a community? Don't assume you would (or would not) fit in the queer community until you get to know it. Chances are there is a group, club, sports team, or whatever with people in it just like you.

Whereas that may be very true, and great, I think you may be missing the crux of my argument. The LGBT community may be truely so diverse as to be wrongly identified, or created, as a community. Sure, same sex attraction is the one defining factor that ties us all, but it shouldn't. No more than groups of people having the same eye color being lumped together as a community.

Say you love motorbikes, specifically Japanese ones, and you join a club that's filled with other people who like things with motors, like you. That's great. But when you get to the opening meeting you find that, because this club allows anyone with an affinity for anything with a motor in general, the members are so diverse and you find it difficult to find someone with the same interests as you, Japanese motorbikes.

It may be a poor analogy, but gets the main point across.

 

[conrad]

Sorry, but I can't quite figure out where this discussion is going. There are parts of the human community that I do not want to associate myself with at times.

When I was learning the ways of m2m sex by doing it with the new guy in town I did not rush to re-label myself. I was still a regular guy in my own thinking doing what I thought was probably coming naturally to my peers as well.

When durng the most wonderful summer of my life, my male partner being away for three month, I had a wonderful introduction to the sweet communion possible in sex with a member of the opposite sex. My life and thinking would never be the same.

I have had few partners, just three males and three females all in long term relationships. I know that I can sustain and be happy in a sexual relationship with a man or with a woman. The persons I have chosen to spend my life with happens to be a woman.

Glad I am that I never "came out" in my whole life. I view whatever happens sexually between two persons as personal and private and always keep it that way.

I can continue to be my own person and always feel free to associate with other persons without declaring my sexual credentials or questioning theirs.

 

[wooffy]

Whereas that may be very true, and great, I think you may be missing the crux of my argument. The LGBT community may be truely so diverse as to be wrongly identified, or created, as a community.

Hmm, will one the second day of Pride here, I'd have to say I 100% disagree. We are a community, of overlapping smaller communities, who come together in our common interests. With some 40 clubs and organizations (plus businesses) to be represented at next week's info-fair, and a 40-page program booklet for the 10 days of Pride, I would say that (a) we are a community and we do have a lot in common, and (b) there is something for everyone out there.

Mind you, I live in a largish city. And this is my experience. I do know I seldom find anything in common with straights, other than in the fetish/kink scene, but I almost always make new friends in a GLBT or queer setting.

 

[clicker]

Just wanted to add that this is how I feel. I feel like one should have the courage to admit that they find guys or girls or whatever attractive, but I don't feel the need to go flaunting it or telling anyone, because I don't see why anyone would really care to begin with (though I get why gay people need to "come out"- I'm mostly talking about bisexuality, in my case). I always found it a kind of gross practice when my friends would tell me all the juicy details about how they fucked some girl. I don't get any pleasure from hearing about it and it's their private business, not mine. Just sort of cheapens the whole thing.

So you understand the need for gay people to come out but not bisexuals? Hhmm?

 

[clicker]

No, I guess I should have said I understand why SOME gay people have to come out.

For bisexual men, a straight society assumes they're attracted to women. They're correct, just not totally correct.

For gay men, people assuming they're attracted to women is 100% wrong.

So, I could see why it would be a bigger weight to bare for totally gay men. They have to pretend they like women to appease family members, friends, work situations, whatever.

For bisexuals, this pressure can exist in some situations, but not me. I'm not surrounded by gay paranoia. More or less everyone I know it completely fine with homosexuality and gay rights. Guess I'm spoiled?

ANYWAY, I personally don't say much about my bisexuality because I'm still trying to gauge how I feel about it. I wouldn't deny that I'm open to trying sex with a man if someone asked me bluntly, but I don't go around saying "HEY EEVERYONE DID YOU HEAR, IM INTO GUYS TOO NOW (I THINK???)"

Hopefully that expresses this better, but probably not. I'm pretty tired.

Sure does, thanks.

 

[Flexuality]

Wel and qget:

I discuss many of these issues in my blog about sexual flexibility (flexuality.info). You are correct in pointing out that exclusive gay and straight categories are not supported by survey research or by any review of other cultures (both historical and contemporary non-Western). The majority of people who call themselves straight have the capacity to enjoy sex and/or romantic feelings with both sexes, and many of them do but don't acknowledge it publicly.

 

[Nomenclature]

The LGBT movement is made up of millions of individuals who have their own free will. We aren't a Borg Hive Mind.

Every straight person is going to differ either a little or a lot from one another.

Every gay person is going to differ either a little or a lot from one another.

Every bisexual person is going to differ either a little or a lot from one another.


You get the drift.



Just because you say "Well, i'm not like everyone else" doesn't mean you aren't who you are. Ideally, we should all be viewed on our individual actions as a. . .well, individual. . .rather than what someone else has done or said.

 

[Lefty]

Again, the bottom line....


Everybody Is the Same

But Differently.

 

[qget12]

I hope people aren't misunderstanding my position on the whole "LGBT community" thing. I don't think it's a bad thing, I just don't think its the best thing.

The LGBT movement is made up of millions of individuals who have their own free will. We aren't a Borg Hive Mind.

Every straight person is going to differ either a little or a lot from one another.

Every gay person is going to differ either a little or a lot from one another.

Every bisexual person is going to differ either a little or a lot from one another.


You get the drift.



Just because you say "Well, i'm not like everyone else" doesn't mean you aren't who you are. Ideally, we should all be viewed on our individual actions as a. . .well, individual. . .rather than what someone else has done or said.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the only basis for being a member of this particular community is sexual attraction, something that all of us have no control over. It's like saying everyone with naturally blonde hair has similar interests, and deeming it a community. That idea seems silly, because it is.

And what you've said in bold is true, very true. But being part of a community that has certain connotations limits our ability to do this, with this community much more so than others. To use my analogy from earlier, if you were friends with someone you had never met in person, but only online, told you that they were part of a car modification club, the only thing that would tell you is that they like cars. If the same person told you they were a member of the LGBT community, there are all sorts of connotations regarding temperment, personality, down to how you dress etc, that will immediately be conjured to their mind.

 

[wooffy]

I discuss many of these issues in my blog about sexual flexibility (flexuality.info).

Pity your "flexuality test" is so offensively hetero-normative. I gave up on it about half-way through the first survey.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Bizarre thread.