Macs "just work"

[icefan]

I want to preface by saying I own and regularly use both PCs and Macs. I also own iPods, Zunes, and other mp3 players. I enjoy using both for different reasons. My rant is that every time I visit a tech website, all the Apple fan-boys always talk about non-Apple products as being subpar, while Apple products "just work."

Why do people say Apple products "just work" when in reality they really do not "just work?" Here are examples:

1) Has anyone ever checked out the Apple support forum? It is full of people not being able to use their Apple products, hence those products do not "just work."

2) People argue that when Vista came out, it was full of issues and incompatible with some of the hardware. Guess what? So did Leopard. Just check out the various Mac forums out there. I am one of those people. I had to down-load a multitude of drivers, and although I've gained ground, I can't say all my pre-loaded software that was just fine, still "just works."

3) People also argue that the great thing about Macs is that it updates itself and has the time-machine backup. Well, doesn't PC have their Windows update and system restore?

4) The majority of software is made for, and "works" on a PC. Yes, you can use bootcamp, parallels, etc to run PC software on a Mac but I can tell you not all PC software works on a Mac, or it works much more slowly.

Sorry for the rant, but I just do not get why people feel all they have to do is say a Mac "just works" when responding to those who do not own Apple when Apple really does not "just work." Again, this is not a rant against Apple, this is a rant against Apple fan-boys.

 

[andysayshi]

Why do you own so many MP3 players?

 

[hummer7979]

Here's my theory:

In the late nineties and early 2000s, when people started going onto the internet, spyware, viruses, useless programs that hog your resources, popups, etc. etc. plagued Windows users mostly because people didn't know better and Internet Explorer was shit. All of this combined to people associating Windows with viruses and constant BSODs and crashes.

Apple's OSX came out a little bit later and was able to anticipate all these problems. Also, their smaller market share, newness, and BSD foundation made it less of a target of viruses and other malware. So, they marketed Macs as being the safe-haven for all those people who fucked up their Windows PCs.

Now-a-days, I think Windows XP, when configured correctly, is very stable. There are excellent free virus scanners so you don't have to use the bloated Norton's or McAfee, and Firefox and Service Pack 2 basically solves most of the problems that IE and the early consumer internet introduced. That said, if you are tech-savvy enough to build your own computer from parts, you'll save a lot of money and probably end up with a better machine, which is worth the sacrifice of OSX for either WinXP or Linux in my opinion.

You can still fuck-up your Windows operating system, but if you mindlessly install shit on your computer, that's probably what you deserve.

 

[Corny]

the answer is simple. macheads live in a reality distortion field

 

[trawler69]

I have XP at work and OSX at home. Now I wouldn't say that Apples just work, there odd times when something will crash but it is only ever a minor crash that doesn't require a reboot and I have never lost anything. My work PC doesn't crash too much but the main difference to me is that the Mac is much easier to work with, it is more intuitive and I don't find myself shouting abuse at it as I do with my PC. Those who know me have observed the same thing. All my other friends with Macs are converts from the PC but only since OSX came out. They also all swear and curse when they use PCs now. This can't just be coincidence surely? There must be some common factor. I personally know 7 converts and none of them regret the change. Of course none of us are great gamers and tend to use the computer as a tool rather than an entertainment centre and I would never say that a mac would suit everyone but it certainly suits me.

 

[Royal Heart]

I've heard all of the horror stories about Vista and so when I got a new laptop I was wary. I've had it for three months and I haven't had a single problem. My laptop works remarkably well, even better than my last one did.

 

[icefan]

Ha ha, "reality distortion field." I can't believe there is actually a term for that...well, then again it's Wikipedia. To answer one of the questions, I've owned many mp3 players (Zune 30, Zune 8, iPod Classic, iPod Nano, Zen 8, and the original Zen) because I love music and have always searched for one that I am happy with. Each one of them has something that another player does not have so I am not 100% there with having one that does it all, but the Zune 30 has been the closest for my personal preferences so far.

 

[Paws]

4) The majority of software is made for, and "works" on a PC. Yes, you can use bootcamp, parallels, etc to run PC software on a Mac but I can tell you not all PC software works on a Mac, or it works much more slowly.

That's the most idiotic reason in your list. I don't expect Windows to be able to run all my old AmigaOS software either.

 

[ANDORYUU]

Oh dear, what a load of bullocks! Re-hash after re-hash of the same old argument.
Don't you think it is time to grow up and keep your immature opinions to yourself? Maybe develop a personality? Or get out and enjoy life?

 

[icefan]

That's the most idiotic reason in your list. I don't expect Windows to be able to run all my old AmigaOS software either.

Well, I guess there goes the "reasonable Mac/PC response for a change." Sorry Paws, but I do not feel that my reason is "idiotic." Windows never claimed to be able to run any other software formats so no one expects Windows to run Amiga or any other OS in the first place. However, Apple does market and advertise Bootcamp as one of the reasons why PC owners should switch to Mac so that those owners can use both formats, so can you tell me why wouldn't a customer think that a Mac w/ Bootcamp could run Windows and all programs that work with Windows?

 

[Corny]

you are aware of the fact that since apple switched to intel hardware there have been people installing macs on their "normal" machines, too - right?

 

[bogatrice]

Well, I guess there goes the "reasonable Mac/PC response for a change." Sorry Paws, but I do not feel that my reason is "idiotic." Windows never claimed to be able to run any other software formats so no one expects Windows to run Amiga or any other OS in the first place. However, Apple does market and advertise Bootcamp as one of the reasons why PC owners should switch to Mac so that those owners can use both formats, so can you tell me why wouldn't a customer think that a Mac w/ Bootcamp could run Windows and all programs that work with Windows?

Which Windows programs won't work with Boot Camp? I know this is true for Windows running in VMs, particularly with games, but I wasn't aware of any issues with Boot Camp.


I have both a Mac and a PC, and like them both, but if I had to vote for one as "just working," it's been the PC (Vista x64), with which I have had literally zero issues (though I think I've finally got the Mac sorted out, at the expense of some functionality (not being able to use both Firewire 800 and 400 ports simultaneously )). "It just works" is, to me, little more than a catchy but empty slogan. And I didn't find Macs to be any more intuitive, either. In fact, when I got the Mac, I was like "Oh my God, what the fuck have I done?" for the first couple weeks because I really couldn't find my way around the system other than to browse the web. I think you learn what ever system you use, and then it feels "intuitive" to you.

Right now, I use the Mac more because the screen is so fantastic. One area where I really think OS X kicks Windows' ass is in window/desktop organization. The flip thing in Vista is nice, but OS X is a whole other level. With Expose & Spaces, especially when activated with Hot Corners, I can literally fly around the computer and the stuff I'm working on. Since I usually have a lot of stuff open at once, this is a huge deal for me, and a significant part of the experience. One of those things is usually VMWare w/Vista. And when I really want to treat myself, I switch over to Vista in Boot Camp

 

[andysayshi]

1) Has anyone ever checked out the Apple support forum? It is full of people not being able to use their Apple products, hence those products do not "just work."

2) People argue that when Vista came out, it was full of issues and incompatible with some of the hardware. Guess what? So did Leopard. Just check out the various Mac forums out there. I am one of those people. I had to down-load a multitude of drivers, and although I've gained ground, I can't say all my pre-loaded software that was just fine, still "just works."

3) People also argue that the great thing about Macs is that it updates itself and has the time-machine backup. Well, doesn't PC have their Windows update and system restore?

4) The majority of software is made for, and "works" on a PC. Yes, you can use bootcamp, parallels, etc to run PC software on a Mac but I can tell you not all PC software works on a Mac, or it works much more slowly.

Sorry for the rant, but I just do not get why people feel all they have to do is say a Mac "just works" when responding to those who do not own Apple when Apple really does not "just work." Again, this is not a rant against Apple, this is a rant against Apple fan-boys.

I use Macs and PCs every day. I regularly use Vista, XP, and even Ubuntu. In my company I oversee more than 15 computers and am responsible for purchase and maintenance. I also am generally the guy my friends call with computer problems and purchase recommendations. Here's some anecdotal opinion:

1) Macs are computers, like any other. Sometimes they crash, sometimes they break down. The "just work" slogan is just that - an advertising slogan. You don't buy shampoo because the slogan says "30 percent more shine!" do you?

My own experience is that my own Macs, my work Macs, and my friend's Macs, simply require less maintenance and attention than my Windows machines. That's not to say Macs never have problems - one friend's MacBook has been an absolute lemon! (Thankfully I've recently convinced Apple to repair it even though it is 6 months out of warranty).

I've never had to install a driver for a camera or an external drive on a Mac, but I have had to when using Windows. In my business, we've calculated that, despite the cost difference, Macs actually cost us less over a 3 year life cycle because they require less software maintenance. Macs are also more friendly in a cross-platform environment than Windows is.

2) The release of Vista was a debacle, and has resulted in the (unjustified) ongoing bad name Vista has in the marketplace. Vista is now a solid and reliable platform, but its premature release cost its reputation dearly. Microsoft wouldn't be spending 300 million dollars on an ad campaign if the brand wasn't suffering a substantial image problem.

Leopard's release was not nearly so rocky - in fact, it had a very high satisfaction rating from users from day 1. (I can't find those stats at the moment, but they do exist). One of the reasons Macs tend to be a little more stable is that Apple is a little more ruthless with its updates - they don't offer the level of backward compatibility that Windows does. You do need to update your software regularly.

Apple currently have the highest consumer satisfaction rating of any computer company, ever. They must be doing something right.
http://www.forbes.com/technology/20...-satisfaction-tech-enter-cz_ah_0819apple.html

3) Windows System Restore and Apple Time Machine just don't compare. Time Machine is the easiest and most seamless backup process I've ever used, on any platform. It has transformed the backup procedure of my entire business. Personally, I find the Update procedure in OS X to be more straightforward and less intrusive than the processes on XP or Vista, but that's just my opinion.

4) I've yet to find a Windows application that won't run using Bootcamp, and that includes intensive apps with strict hardware requirements, like Adobe Premiere, After Effects and 3DS Max. As someone else has mentioned, current Macs have been rated as some of the best Vista machines on the market, so I don't understand your criticism without specifics.



I will say that, in my own opinion, Apple are starting to slip. Clunky iPhone software, poorer build quality on low-end MacBooks, etc. I read an article somewhere that suggested Apple are experiencing right now what Microsoft experienced in the early 90s: an expansion that is so rapid they simply can't maintain the level of quality and control that they have in the past, because they don't have the resources to do so.

Obviously, the cost of Apple hardware is a big factor in people's decisions to buy Apple as well. If I was looking to buy a cheap computer, I wouldn't buy Apple either.

Ultimately, people should use what they're comfortable with. I find the negativity on either side of the Win vs Apple debate bizarre - if you don't like something, don't use it. I'll often defend Apple if I see misinformation, but I've never once told a Windows user they've made the wrong choice. Each to their own.

 

[trawler69]

Just gonna throw this in because I have just been on the phone to a colleague who was ardent anti Mac. He just bought one because his wife wanted one. He told me he was going through an acute case of having to swallow his words. He told me that on his PC he spent 3 weeks sorting out his flight controllers for flight sim. He plugged them into his mac and setting them up how he wanted them took 2 minutes.

He did say he didn't think it was quite as fast as his XP laptop but was much faster than his Vista one. He does want to use MS flight sim and it seems he might be better keeping this on his pc. As I said before both platforms have their place. I will only bash windows when it pisses me off, sadly it does so quite regularly. Similarly I won't claim that the Mac is superior in every way, that would be stupid, but for the things I use a computer for, the Mac causes me less stress and enables me to achieve what I want to do faster. I don't think I would be out of order if I said the same is true for the other Mac converts I know.

Apple of course have the advantage that they build the hardware so there need never be a driver issue, whereas windows has to try to work with an incredible range of hardware and has to rely on the manufacturers getting the drivers right which they often fail at and it results in the OS looking bad when, in fact, it might not be MS's fault.

Another thing on Apple's side is that it's operating system is based on an inherently more secure software infrastructure IE Unix. I was in an Apple store the other day and commented on the Norton for Mac boxes in the shop. The assistant, who was decidedly cute, said he didn't ever recall them having sold one but that they had to stock it as it was created for the Mac. I commented that on the only Mac I have ever had to fix, the problem was Norton for Mac and removal cured the problem.

Anyway let's not fight over this. Each to his own etc. These are just operating systems, not religions, but if asked for an opinion it might be polite to listen to what it is rather than just slam it as being wrong because it differs from yours.

 

[Corny]

Apple of course have the advantage that they build the hardware so there need never be a driver issue, whereas windows has to try to work with an incredible range of hardware and has to rely on the manufacturers getting the drivers right which they often fail at and it results in the OS looking bad when, in fact, it might not be MS's fault.

that's exactly the reason why bootcamp is "running" so fine (note that bootcamp is nothing more than a boot manager, so actually it doesn't do anything except telling the machine to boot windows). it's always the same hardware, so all drivers work nicely with each other. that's also the reason why apple has relatively less hardware problems.

 

[trawler69]

I always thought that part of bootcamp was providing the right drivers for the windows install to operate correctly with the hardware Apple uses. I thought that if that were not the case the install would be relying on the generic windows drivers which rarely get the best out of the hardware.

Note these are just my thoughts based on possibly dodgy deductions. I would be happy to be politely enlightened.

 

[Corny]

^ oh .. I just educated myself and learned that it is indeed more than just that.
- it does indeed help you installing windows on the machine

i have seen "bootcamp" in operation, and well .. at that point it is actually only the boot manager, so i figured that's about it.

 

[Persian89]

I want to preface by saying I own and regularly use both PCs and Macs. I also own iPods, Zunes, and other mp3 players. I enjoy using both for different reasons. My rant is that every time I visit a tech website, all the Apple fan-boys always talk about non-Apple products as being subpar, while Apple products "just work."

I like their products, good quality, good integration with other peripherals and sweet design.

Why do people say Apple products "just work" when in reality they really do not "just work?" Here are examples:

1) Has anyone ever checked out the Apple support forum? It is full of people not being able to use their Apple products, hence those products do not "just work."

There will ALWAYS be
1)Idiots
2)Defect products
3)Idiots
No offence to anyone

2) People argue that when Vista came out, it was full of issues and incompatible with some of the hardware. Guess what? So did Leopard. Just check out the various Mac forums out there. I am one of those people. I had to down-load a multitude of drivers, and although I've gained ground, I can't say all my pre-loaded software that was just fine, still "just works."

Vista is still crap, the entire WINDOWS system is still crap, they too should change to BSD/UNIX. I am one who got the Santa Rosa Macbook that came with Leopard, it's flawless and has never died on me, even from start.
You just had a bad copy I guess or an old PPC processor, get Intel, PPC is dead for PC's
Yes Mac is a PC. And drivers? Who the hell installs drivers?

3) People also argue that the great thing about Macs is that it updates itself and has the time-machine backup. Well, doesn't PC have their Windows update and system restore?

Remember back in the good old days when you had to update through explorer?
It's not the same, and besides Time machine works in a flawless way of making things SIMPEL and easy for the dumbest to the geekiest. It's not for Carbon Copy but for document copy for safe keeping, sorta like a dumb SVN (Subversion)
Atleast thats what I use it for, you can make carbon copies, but it is not recomended.

4) The majority of software is made for, and "works" on a PC. Yes, you can use bootcamp, parallels, etc to run PC software on a Mac but I can tell you not all PC software works on a Mac, or it works much more slowly.

Well Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.
OS X can run X11 and OS X (Cocoa/Carbon) software, that is pretty fucking sweet.
And also Through Crossover/Wine and VmWare.
I bet the only thing you can't run (flawless) on OS X is most DirectX games. Which is why you have Bootcamp. And why wouldn't a piece of software run at native speed when you run windows native? Thats just a retarded statement.

Sorry for the rant, but I just do not get why people feel all they have to do is say a Mac "just works" when responding to those who do not own Apple when Apple really does not "just work." Again, this is not a rant against Apple, this is a rant against Apple fan-boys.

OS X is flawless for regular work other then gaming or C# programming (Yes there is Mono, but c'mooooooooon)
Windows is OBSELOTE, and CRAP.
Never again.....

I use Linux and got an Xbox360 (Based on Win2k code) so you can't call me Apple-fanboy even though I got a macmini with linux, macbook, airport extreme and various ipods

...... Maybe I need an Ipod touch too.. yes.... yes... YES PRECIOUS!

 

[andysayshi]

I always thought that part of bootcamp was providing the right drivers for the windows install to operate correctly with the hardware Apple uses. I thought that if that were not the case the install would be relying on the generic windows drivers which rarely get the best out of the hardware.

Note these are just my thoughts based on possibly dodgy deductions. I would be happy to be politely enlightened.

During a Bootcamp installation, the Bootcamp installer loads a package of hardware drivers for Windows. The package contains drivers for all known standard Apple hardware - video cards, bluetooth keyboards & mice, etc etc. Windows detects the hardware, loads the relevant drivers, and voila!

What surprises me is the speed that this happens at. I've owned many off the shelf PCs over the years - Dell, Compaq and Sony to name a few. When doing a clean install with the disks supplied by the hardware company, the install is typically really long and cumbersome, with devices being detected almost 1 at a time. Sometimes you even have to manually point to driver folders on the disk. All this from a disk made specifically for the hardware.

During the Bootcamp install, ALL the drivers seem to install in one step, in just a minute or so. Why aren't all Windows installs that streamlined?