Number of partners: insecure or competitive?

[phldude]

Hey guys,

I've followed some of these forums for years but have never posted until now. I was hoping some of you may have some thoughts.

For my entire life, I've struggled with self-loathing and mild depression. I don't have a lot of confidence and feel like I never measure up. Objectively, I've done pretty well for myself (graduate degree, great career, lots of potential for the future) but I always seem to focus on how badly I'm doing. It's a clear problem and I'm working on getting into therapy.

Right now, I've been dating a great guy for about 9 months now. It's been an amazing relationship and I think it has the potential to go the distance. I really love this guy and I want to make it work.

Here's my dumb issue. He's been with a lot more guys than I have. I'm 30 and I've hooked up with 9 guys and slept with 4 of them. He's probably hooked up with around 30 guys and slept with a dozen or so. My concern is not that he has been with too many guys, it's that I've been with too few. He had a wild and crazy hook up phase after he came out and I never did. It makes me feel like I'm not as adventurous, or fun, or as good in bed. I feel less experienced and, frankly, inferior to him. There's also a part of me that has a fiercely competitive side and it bothers me that he has been with way more guys than me, as if I'm not measuring up to him. We've talked about it and he reassures me that none of his past experiences come close to what we have now, but I still have this nagging feeling inside me that I'm not good enough or that I'm weird for having hooked up with so many fewer guys (I recognize 9 guys isn't a ridiculously small number, this is just the crazy BS that goes on in my head).

I know I sound crazy. Hell, I probably am crazy. I just don't know why I think like this. I was wondering if any of you have experienced something similar. Any help/advice would bre greatly appreciated.


(Don't flame me...I know these are not "real" problems in the grand scheme of life. But they are still issues that I struggle with everyday.)

 

[borg69unimatrix]

Regardless of how many people he's been with before, he chose YOU. As long as you can trust him to be faithful to you now, aren't you glad he got all that out of his system already? Who he IS now is relevant. Who he WAS is not. It's not a competition.

 

[Seasoned]

I don't know what you mean by "working on getting into therapy," but therapy for you in long overdue. In the scheme of things and in comparison to how a lot of guys behave I'd say you're both relatively "inexperienced." It's clear based on what you wrote that you'd feel this way even if the tables were turned. Therapy will help you to stop looking for reasons to feel inferior, a trait you'll have to give up if you wish to have a healthy, long and suspicious free relationship.

 

[phldude]

I just feel pathetic for not having been with more guys. All the gay guys I know have slept around so much. I don't think that's a great thing, but I just keep feeling like I'm a loser for not having more experiences.

 

[sixthson]

You're being silly and you are looking backwards instead of toward the future with a great guy. Stop thinking of yourself as pathetic.

 

[borg69unimatrix]

I just feel pathetic for not having been with more guys. All the gay guys I know have slept around so much. I don't think that's a great thing, but I just keep feeling like I'm a loser for not having more experiences.

Not everything in life is a competition. Nor should it be. I knew a guy who could eat 12 hotdogs. Am I jealous or envious? No. Do I feel like I'm missing out on something? No. I've known people who had only one partner through their whole lives. They were extremely loving towards each other and he certainly had no regrets. Him I am a little envious of. Having more doesn't automatically make it better.

Remember that it took him each and every one of those guys to find YOU and decide that YOU are the one he wants to be with. YOU are the one that stands out in his crowd as being that one special guy worth keeping. He's been there, done that, knows what the rat race is if he still wanted it. He doesn't.

Relationships are hard enough as it is... don't look for trouble where there isn't any and make things more complicated.

 

[eastofeden]

I have a hunch if it wasn't this it would be something else you feel the exact same way about. I think it is a pre-existing condition...and I think therapy is in order.

When you go to therapy..tell them THIS

For my entire life, I've struggled with self-loathing and mild depression. I don't have a lot of confidence and feel like I never measure up

I think this is the actual problem...the sex partner thing is just the latest symptom....

 

[outofleft]

I just feel pathetic for not having been with more guys. All the gay guys I know have slept around so much. I don't think that's a great thing, but I just keep feeling like I'm a loser for not having more experiences.

I had exactly the same feelings about my ex-boyfriend; he'd slept with (quoting him here) "probably over 100 people" and I'd been with, what, maybe a dozen. Part of the reason I agreed to separate from him when we ended up far away from each other was that I thought I needed some sort of "crazy slut phase" or something, to give me experience, to make me better in bed, to make me more like other gay guys. What I have found is that casual sex does not make me better in bed, and that it's just not as enjoyable as sex in a committed relationship.

And when you think about it, straight people have a ton less sex than gay people. If however many hookups you've had makes you feel inadequate, think of all the straight guys and gals that have only ever had one partner, or even just a few. You're in a lot better company than you think. Just because gay culture makes us feel like we need to sleep around, doesn't mean that we do. Remember, if you had no standards, you could walk into any club or onto any online forum, find the most desperate dude and sleep with him, no problem. Plenty of guys just say yes to anyone that offers. If you don't, or if you don't put yourself in those kinds of gross situations, I applaud you anyway.

 

[checkinthingsout]

I had exactly the same feelings about my ex-boyfriend; he'd slept with (quoting him here) "probably over 100 people" and I'd been with, what, maybe a dozen. Part of the reason I agreed to separate from him when we ended up far away from each other was that I thought I needed some sort of "crazy slut phase" or something, to give me experience, to make me better in bed, to make me more like other gay guys. What I have found is that casual sex does not make me better in bed, and that it's just not as enjoyable as sex in a committed relationship.

And when you think about it, straight people have a ton less sex than gay people. If however many hookups you've had makes you feel inadequate, think of all the straight guys and gals that have only ever had one partner, or even just a few. You're in a lot better company than you think. Just because gay culture makes us feel like we need to sleep around, doesn't mean that we do. Remember, if you had no standards, you could walk into any club or onto any online forum, find the most desperate dude and sleep with him, no problem. Plenty of guys just say yes to anyone that offers. If you don't, or if you don't put yourself in those kinds of gross situations, I applaud you anyway.

I don't think it is gay culture that makes us feel anything. People who want to sleep around sleep around for various reasons. You should feel secure in the fact that you don't need to.

Also, more sexual partners does not mean more Sex. So straight people are having sex, just with the same person for longer periods of time.

 

[outofleft]

I don't think it is gay culture that makes us feel anything. People who want to sleep around sleep around for various reasons. You should feel secure in the fact that you don't need to.

Saying that culture doesn't make us feel anything is silly. Of course it does. When you're surrounded by images of people that do certain things, in a community that you might desire to belong to, one often feels they need to emulate that behavior. That's sociology 101. Combine that with the fact that a large libido is framed as a "good," masculine trait, plus the fact that a lot of gay men are only first able to explore their identity in their late teens/early 20's (i.e. when sexual drive is highest), it just makes sense that young gay men, as a demographic, have a lot of casual sex.

Also, more sexual partners does not mean more Sex. So straight people are having sex, just with the same person for longer periods of time.

And that may also be true. Obviously more sexual partners does not mean more sex, but I find it to be common for gay people to fill in the "gaps" between relationships with a lot of casual sex, whereas that is less common for straight people.

 

[eastofeden]

It is less common for straight women to fill the gaps...but you forget that a lot of straight men (and some women) are notorious for cheating DURING their relationships...hookers....strip clubs...neighbors....and in the gaps plenty of straight men and some of the women get as much as they can...

Gay people are more open about it....

 

[KaraBulut]

I've followed some of these forums for years but have never posted until now...

For my entire life, I've struggled with self-loathing and mild depression... I'm working on getting into therapy.

Right now, I've been dating a great guy for about 9 months now.

Here's my dumb issue. He's been with a lot more guys than I have..

It makes me feel like I'm not as adventurous, or fun, or as good in bed.

Congrats on joining and on your first post. And congrats on realizing that therapy to work on your insecurities is the key to making a change.

Different people have different experiences. Some guys are clearer on what they want from life and love- they don't have to do a lot of experimenting. Other guys aren't as clear and sometimes they have to find out what they don't want in order to know what they do want.

He's been with you 9 months. Obviously, there's something that you have that he never found with the guys who came before you.

But again, getting into therapy will help you deal with these issues of insecurity and seeing things as they are instead of through the lens of those insecurities.

 

[hylas]

Make up your mind about whether you do or you don't want to sleep with "many" guys.
Then do what you decided you want for yourself.

 

[phldude]

I had exactly the same feelings about my ex-boyfriend; he'd slept with (quoting him here) "probably over 100 people" and I'd been with, what, maybe a dozen. Part of the reason I agreed to separate from him when we ended up far away from each other was that I thought I needed some sort of "crazy slut phase" or something, to give me experience, to make me better in bed, to make me more like other gay guys. What I have found is that casual sex does not make me better in bed, and that it's just not as enjoyable as sex in a committed relationship.

Glad to hear someone else experienced something similar. This was helpful to read, along with everyone else's responses.

I know my main problem is that I don't really like myself very much. I have always seen myself as a loser who doesn't really have much value. I wonder if I get hung up on the number of guys I've been with as a measure of how much value I have to others. When I really get down I start to feel really bad about myself and my experiences. Then I feel inferior to other guys which makes me feel worse. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

 

[outofleft]

Glad to hear someone else experienced something similar. This was helpful to read, along with everyone else's responses.

I know my main problem is that I don't really like myself very much. I have always seen myself as a loser who doesn't really have much value. I wonder if I get hung up on the number of guys I've been with as a measure of how much value I have to others. When I really get down I start to feel really bad about myself and my experiences. Then I feel inferior to other guys which makes me feel worse. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

Well it's good you're talking to a therapist then; it's really great that you've recognized the steps you need to take to help work through issues you've identified. Actually admitting these issues exist, I think, is the most important step to moving past them.

I have no doubt that my self-worth is tied up with sex. At times in my life when I've felt most lonely, or unsuccessful, or generally unhappy, that I start to seek out casual sexual encounters (mostly online) or do camshows. It's nice to be wanted. But then you have to remember that someone wanting you for a one-night fling is not really wanting you, they're wanting to use your body like an object. So a lesser number of casual sexual partners may reflect the fact that you refuse to be used as an object. Now obviously some people enjoy being used or in fact using others, and that's their prerogative, but personally, I enjoy neither. If that's the case for you too, then it just reflects the standards you have, and that you aren't willing to bend over for just anyone because you're worth more than that.

 

[checkinthingsout]

Saying that culture doesn't make us feel anything is silly. Of course it does. When you're surrounded by images of people that do certain things, in a community that you might desire to belong to, one often feels they need to emulate that behavior. That's sociology 101. Combine that with the fact that a large libido is framed as a "good," masculine trait, plus the fact that a lot of gay men are only first able to explore their identity in their late teens/early 20's (i.e. when sexual drive is highest), it just makes sense that young gay men, as a demographic, have a lot of casual sex.



And that may also be true. Obviously more sexual partners does not mean more sex, but I find it to be common for gay people to fill in the "gaps" between relationships with a lot of casual sex, whereas that is less common for straight people.

Correction:

Culture makes us feel more free to do what we want to do, because we do not risk being ostracized or labeled taboo. But I think it is rare to find grown men "pressured" into having casual sex because of images around them of casual sex. Maybe in middle school, high school, but after age 20, most men, do what they want. I don't believe the culture is driving the behavior, it is simply breaking down societal rules to allow people to do what they were thinking of doing anyways and feel less shame about it. Just because culture says it is "ok" to do now, people will only do it if they want to. Like you stated, I think it is driven WAY more by libido and sexual repression, than a need to fit in with gay culture.


You say that its obvious, but you still base your premise on the assumption that more casual sex=more sex/more sexual experience, and that is NOT true... 30 sexual partners for a gay man in North Dakota could very well mean they have had sex a total of 40 times. Think about the gay people who may not have access to a heavily populated metro area. Same for those men who are a little bit more discriminating in terms of who they have sex with. In my limited experience, I know gay people who go months without a sexual experience in the gaps. Whether or not your experience is "gayer" thank mine or the OPs could be debated forever, but to suggest that several partners is somehow quintessential to being a part of gay culture is just FALSE IMO.

Regardless, Gaps are often times filled with having sex with exes for straight people, especially with straight women who want to have sex but don't want their number to go up or to be slut shamed. For men, this also materializes in serial monogamy or "dating" someone who you don't even want to be in a relationship with. As a sexual relationship is crashing and burning, trust me, a lot of straight guys already have something/someone else in the works...not to mention tinder is increasing sexual freedom among straight people as well.

 

[outofleft]

Correction:

Culture makes us feel more free to do what we want to do, because we do not risk being ostracized or labeled taboo. But I think it is rare to find grown men "pressured" into having casual sex because of images around them of casual sex. Maybe in middle school, high school, but after age 20, most men, do what they want. I don't believe the culture is driving the behavior, it is simply breaking down societal rules to allow people to do what they were thinking of doing anyways and feel less shame about it. Just because culture says it is "ok" to do now, people will only do it if they want to. Like you stated, I think it is driven WAY more by libido and sexual repression, than a need to fit in with gay culture.

First of all, that's clearly it's not that not rare to find men feeling pressured into having more casual sex/sexual partners, because the OP and myself at least have both expressed the experience of feeling like we're not "good enough" if we haven't had multiple sexual partners. "Gay culture" has certainly freed up a lot of people to fulfill their desires to pursue casual sex, and good on 'em. But it has also posited casual hookups and multiple sexual partners as "the new normal." It used to be no one was supposed to have sex, because it was ungodly. Now, everyone is supposed to have sex, because if you don't you're awkward or ugly or repressed. This is implicit in the imagery that surrounds us everyday, and in the actions and beliefs of our peers. And I don't know what world you're living in where 20-22 year old college students aren't subject to peer pressure by the whirlwind hookup culture that surrounds them. Personally I have certainly felt pressure to have sex when I didn't necessarily want to: "oh, guys do this all the time, it's normal/cool to hook up, I should just do it, I'll enjoy it."

You say that its obvious, but you still base your premise on the assumption that more casual sex=more sex/more sexual experience, and that is NOT true... 30 sexual partners for a gay man in North Dakota could very well mean they have had sex a total of 40 times. Think about the gay people who may not have access to a heavily populated metro area. Same for those men who are a little bit more discriminating in terms of who they have sex with. In my limited experience, I know gay people who go months without a sexual experience in the gaps. Whether or not your experience is "gayer" thank mine or the OPs could be debated forever, but to suggest that several partners is somehow quintessential to being a part of gay culture is just FALSE IMO.

Regardless, Gaps are often times filled with having sex with exes for straight people, especially with straight women who want to have sex but don't want their number to go up or to be slut shamed. For men, this also materializes in serial monogamy or "dating" someone who you don't even want to be in a relationship with. As a sexual relationship is crashing and burning, trust me, a lot of straight guys already have something/someone else in the works...not to mention tinder is increasing sexual freedom among straight people as well.

Nothing about my premise has anything to do with the idea that more sexual partners = more actual times having sex. I'm just saying that casual sex is almost exclusively a one-night stand or few engagement kind of scenario, so people that have "casual sex" as opposed to "committed relationship sex" tend to have more sexual partners. And, that gay people have more casual sex and more sexual partners, in general, than straight people, for a multitude of reasons which can all be filed under the umbrella of "gay culture."

For example, according to this study (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-012-0066-9) "Sexual orientation was also significantly associated with the number of sexual partners in the previous 12 months, with... heterosexual men having significantly less partners than gay, bisexual and unsure men"

I'm too tired to go searching for more sources, but suffice it to say, there's strong evidence that young gay men as a demographic have more sexual partners and therefore more "casual sex."

 

[KaraBulut]

...For example, according to this study (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-012-0066-9) "Sexual orientation was also significantly associated with the number of sexual partners in the previous 12 months, with... heterosexual men having significantly less partners than gay, bisexual and unsure men"

I'm too tired to go searching for more sources, but suffice it to say, there's strong evidence that young gay men as a demographic have more sexual partners and therefore more "casual sex."

The author of the study that you cited, Sara Oswalt, has a series of very interesting studies about college students. The abstract doesn't adequately describe this particular study but the statistics about sexual partners should not be a surprise.

Prior studies show that men have more sexual partners than women. And the studies do show that gay and bisexual men have more sex partners than straight men (although the terms "gay", "straight" and "bisexual" are very sketchy in this age group). So, logic says that if men are having more sex and by definition, gay sex involves two men...

Other studies that Dr Oswalt has done also find that college-age gay men have more mental health issues than their straight peers.

Oswalt's studies usually summarize the results of surveys in college aged men and women. Neither study concludes that gay men are mentally unhealthy or unusually promiscuous but we do know that depression, alcohol use, drug use and promiscuity are big issues in the college-age gay community.

Which brings us back to OP's original question...

I just feel pathetic for not having been with more guys. All the gay guys I know have slept around so much. I don't think that's a great thing, but I just keep feeling like I'm a loser for not having more experiences.

There's a subtle implication that somehow sleeping with more guys would make him feel less of a loser or less pathetic? How is the number of guys one sleeps with even associated with whether a gay man is pathetic or a loser?

 

[outofleft]

There's a subtle implication that somehow sleeping with more guys would make him feel less of a loser or less pathetic? How is the number of guys one sleeps with even associated with whether a gay man is pathetic or a loser?

I can't speak to how he feels, I'm not him. And this is my last time derailing a thread about the OP to make it about my debating, but here's my last words:


It's pretty basic inductive reasoning that if someone says "not having enough x makes me feel bad," that therefore "having more x would make me feel better." Now because of the ways that sex, culture and mental health interact, that's probably not actually true in most cases, i.e. having more sexual partners won't actually make people feel less insecure (although it might). But if someone, usually a man, has few sexual partners, it is often believed to imply that they can't get sexual partners because they are ugly/lame/pathetic/a loser/etc. So, people can be led to believe that they would be happier, less of a loser, or less pathetic if they did have more sexual partners. So they'll often sleep with a lot of people to prove to themselves (and sometimes others) that they are "desired," whether they actually want to or not (and some do, I'm not denying that).

Honestly, if you've ever known someone insecure, know anything about the predominant gay male subculture in the US, and have any basic understanding of sex and its connection to sociology, these links between gay culture (and mainstream culture for that matter), sexual promiscuity and insecurity should be really, really obvious.


****

Finally, to the OP: I didn't mean to derail your thread with clinical debates about insecurity and sex. I just wanted to get across that having less sexual partners doesn't automatically make you pathetic; it's insidious culture mores that tell us that, and that I've struggled with similar thoughts to you. If you're in a relationship and it makes you happy, you've already got something that plenty of more "experienced" people want. So if you're working with a therapist to get to the roots of your insecurity, then you're already halfway towards internalizing that fact. I hope you feel better soon, and if you ever want to talk, I'd be more than happy!