Physical vs. emotional sexuality, again

[ladygrey]

Alright.

Be ready for some more "New Age" mumbo jumbo, but it's the area I come from the best.

I read your entire posting and I read all of Lumimums (Who makes great points).

So.

The thing that kept striking me about what you're saying is that it seems to me to suggest intimacy issues. That is, a fear of intimacy with other people, particulary men.

By intimacy, I mean emotional/mental/pshyical/spiritual vulerablity. You sound as if the thought of being in relationship that opens you up to possiblities that can't be planned or perpared for is frightening for you. In short, I wonder if you are not scared of what or who you could be.

You sound like a very intelligent person. You also sound very senstive and very reflective on what is occuring in your own life. However, there seems to be a disconnect between what you're observing about yourself and how it makes you feel.

For example, you talk at great lengths about your levels of attraction, etc. Yet, you don't talk about how you would feel as a gay man. What you imagine life or a relationship with another male would be like. How do you imagine females? How do you see your life in 20 ,30 , 40 years down the road and what part does your sexuality have to do with that?

What I'm getting at is simply this: You are feeling lots and lots of emotions right now. But I question if you are really exploring those feelings. You seem to be trying to ansye and intellectly process those feelings to create some sense of correct answers or rightness, but ulitmently, you cannot shift through all of this and come up with a stress free solution.

No matter whether you are gay or bi or whatever, you are still you. Your life will change in small ways, but not major ones. Gender and your sexuality as small parts of life. Important, but small.

What matters more than whether we're gay or straight is how comfortable we feel in those roles and how comfrotable we feel with ourselves.

it all comes down to this: You might be gay. You might be straight. You might be inbetween.

But you, for sure, YOU. And if you don't like you or have issues with you, than knowing exactly the percentage of how much you want to be ploughed by a boy or much you want to plough a girl won't matter. The stress and concern will continue inside of you, regardless.

So maybe you're trying to put the cart before the horse. Figure whether or not you like yourself, then worry about the sex part afterwards.

The more confident you are in yourself the eaiser your tranistion will be, whether you have a relationship with a boy or not.

About the friends: Never, ever sleep with a gay friend who knew you before you started questioning, unless you really have strong feelings for them. If you feel the urge to experiment, do so with some you're comfortable with, but not a friend. It can ruin support structures, etc. Trust me, been there, done it...and wasn't a big fan.

I guess I'm telling you to learn to love yourself first, then worry about loving (fucking) other people as well.

Namaste, kiddo.

i really do hope with helps.

 

[conrad]

You must be tired of all this, Hans, but hang in there and don't give up the quest.
Very interesting interchange here. We all approach things differently. I suspect
I'm the 'take-it-easy-let-it-happen" type. Friendship has to come first; I can't imagine really enjoying any of the "heavy stuff" without a sense of warmth and understanding from the other party. Interestiing people are those who are interested in other people; it's as simple as that to begin.

I hope you are not worrying about what would happen when it does happen; again, let it happen so that both parties are happy emotionally and, if you get that far, physically. Thank you for putting this out for us to mull over. I wish that had been available to me way back then. I was lucky to have some good friends nearby to bounce my thought onto.

In my life longtime relationships are best. A few good relationships, one at a time, that don't mature are good and they don't, in my experience, end in a forever rupture in friendship. There are a lot of wonderful people out there and you'll want to get to know them. We make our own worlds far as sex is concerned and we want the best for ourselves and the persons we interact with.

Quite conventional? I guess so. But it's worked for me.

 

[hanshansen]

Thanks a lot for that, Luminum.

I do think that a lot of the issues you're going through are because of physical self-esteem issues and also the mystique of the gay relationship.

Yes. To some extent the straight relationship as well.

Do you have any friends who are open about sexuality and relationships? If so, that could fill that need you have of wanting to be able to share experiences or that common issue with someone else.

Quite possibly – to each other. But all my friends are straight and I have not let anyone in on my sexual hangups except here.

Gay relationships are generally the same as heterosexual relationships in that all the same stuff happens. Most gay guys have a connection through the experience of being a sexual minority and the adversity that comes with it. But that's just about as deep of a connection as adversity is. Just being a plagued minority won't get you far. And not all relationships have that, either. My first boyfriend had it 'easy' in terms of coming out to parents who totally supported him, so he didn't really understand my troubles with being in a relationship while having very unsupportive parents.

Yes, as I said, this is the view I had been coming to on this forum here, which is the only exposure I have had to how gay people think and live their lives (unless you count Thomas Mann, and he was really repressed).

It's not wrong to be needed, because all people thrive on a sense of being important and loved, which constitutes need, or conversely means that the person isn't easily forgotten or thrown away. So there's nothing wrong with being needed.

I think you're sweating the physical stuff too much. I think that if you have a good emotional connection with someone, what you look like under the covers isn't such a big deal. Are all people shallow? No. A lot of people know that their partners aren't the ideal physical dream they've had, but in the end, most of them realize that they don't care because they like their partner for far more than that.

In fact, so long as the person isn't the exact opposite and everything they hate physically, I can't imagine any decent person turning their partner away. I don't think it matters as much as you think.

That must be true, because all sorts of at best mildly attractive people end up in happy marriages, and you don’t get the sense that they feel they settled for second best. I don’t think I’m shallow, but I think the thing is that I have for such a long time felt that I have no control over my bewildering physical urges (i.e. that they must be something hormonal that hits me when I least expect it) that I have assumed other people must be like that too. But one thing I have started to wake up to recently is the extent to which my states of physical attraction are bound up with my mental state of mind at the time.

You're not alone in that the people you foind very attractive automatically get dismissed in your mind when you think about the two of you forming a physical relationship. I often find that a guy who is "out of my league" will only make me feel bad about myself if we ever did anything together, or that I would make me feel bad about myself because I don't measure up, but you never know.

Not being attracted to your friends is normal. When I came out, I was on the swim team and a lot of my teammates/friends were very attractive, but I really didn't feel attracted to them because I knew them in a different way than how I would know someone I loved or felt physically attracted to. The way I perceived them and knew them stopped any physical attraction from coming to fruition.

That makes sense. Case in point for how much context and emotional state matter for physical feelings, I guess.

I think you're also afraid of missing out, or always wondering what the other side is like. And I think that will only come with time and experience. I thinkw hen you enter a gay relationship, you'll find that

a) You only connect as much as you're compatible. The 'gay experience' won't do it.
and
b) Your partner won't care so much about your physical appearance. The way they chose to be with you was partially based on how you look in clothes. How you look out of clothes isn't that different or shocking. If you can't guess how they look out of clothes, then you deserve to be surprised, right? There's not as much pressure as you think there is.
and
c) you'll know the depth of your attraction by your gut feeling. You'll know if you're only with this guy because you feel you can't get any girls or if you're with him because you like him. Some part of you will know and tell you.

In a straight relationship, you'll also know if you really can connect emotionally to a girl and if she can fulfill a good amount of what you need and what you want.

I think I can buy all of that – with the emphasis on emotional gut feeling in (c). I’m not sure if I’m in tune with my physical gut feelings yet (but I guess that’s a pipe dream if those aren’t really separable from emotional states, within certain bounds).

But in the end, I really just want to say that if some guy just ran into you, totally asked you on a date, and you started going out and went through a emotional and physical relationship, a lot of things would be demystified for you and a lot of your confusion would be cleared up. But that's kind of circular...

Really, though, I'd say the best thing is to be a bit confident and go for what comes your way. The ebst way to know is to make a start and then learn from it. Don't be so anayltical and afraid, just be. Go out there and find out. The only way it won't happen should be if the other person tells you. It's terrible to hold yourself back and never experience anything if there's still the chance out there that the other person wouldn't have denied you anything.

I think ‘just doing it’ isn’t a good option if your fears and inhibitions and anxieties are such that they turn people off you, because then they will be self-confirming. As I’ve said elsewhere, since starting to post here I’ve made huge progress on that score in social settings. I’m more open and relaxed towards people and they are much nicer to me (you can see it in the eye contact and body language). The way that happened is because certain people here convinced me that it was safe to be less self-conscious in social settings. I’m not sure if I’m there yet at a more intimate level, although your post has certaintly helped. When I feel that I’ve gone as far as I can on my own, I’ll take the plunge sooner or later.

Thanks again.

 

[luminum]

Just take baby steps. It's great that you're feeling more relaxed and open. You can do it! You're not alone and happiness is always within your grasp! ::hug::

 

[hanshansen]

Sorry, I don't know how to break up quoted messages into parts.

Alright.

Be ready for some more "New Age" mumbo jumbo, but it's the area I come from the best.

This isn’t New Age, this is sensible and helpful stuff (apart from the second-to-last line!) and I really appreciate the time you have taken. I’m sorry for joking about your style (that goes for others here that I’ve done that to as well) – believe me, I always try to get at the meaning of what you are saying and to understand it, even if it may sometimes feel as if I don’t.

I read your entire posting and I read all of Lumimums (Who makes great points).

So.

The thing that kept striking me about what you're saying is that it seems to me to suggest intimacy issues. That is, a fear of intimacy with other people, particulary men.

By intimacy, I mean emotional/mental/pshyical/spiritual vulerablity. You sound as if the thought of being in relationship that opens you up to possiblities that can't be planned or perpared for is frightening for you. In short, I wonder if you are not scared of what or who you could be.

Yes - because it could all go horribly wrong ;-)

You sound like a very intelligent person. You also sound very senstive and very reflective on what is occuring in your own life. However, there seems to be a disconnect between what you're observing about yourself and how it makes you feel.

For example, you talk at great lengths about your levels of attraction, etc. Yet, you don't talk about how you would feel as a gay man. What you imagine life or a relationship with another male would be like. How do you imagine females? How do you see your life in 20 ,30 , 40 years down the road and what part does your sexuality have to do with that?

What I'm getting at is simply this: You are feeling lots and lots of emotions right now. But I question if you are really exploring those feelings. You seem to be trying to ansye and intellectly process those feelings to create some sense of correct answers or rightness, but ulitmently, you cannot shift through all of this and come up with a stress free solution.

No matter whether you are gay or bi or whatever, you are still you. Your life will change in small ways, but not major ones. Gender and your sexuality as small parts of life. Important, but small.

OK. First, I hope I’m not trying to get at right answers (I’m a Popperian, dammit! ;-) ). What I was trying to do is to articulate my fears and to find out where I might be blocking what might be answers to my questions, and to my problems. Look, I have been repressing so many things over so many years that I cannot trust my instincts – I need to work at gaining access to them.

But I think you’re totally right – by just obsessing about my sexual instincts I am not seeing the bigger picture and my life as a whole. (Though I think by arriving at my self-esteem issues I already got a bit closer to the deeper sources of why I’m not totally happy.)

So how would I like to see my life in 10 or 20 years’ time, what do I want out of life? In a nutshell: I want to regain some of the trust and the inner freedom that I had as a kid, I want to be able to put more of my energy into developing my talents and using them to do interesting and good things. I want to get to know people who I can trust and depend on as much as I have been able to do with my parents, who are going to die at some stage. I want to do these things while remaining true to the core values of my extended family (a large and reasonably notable one), which is really the main source of my sense of myself as a social being, far more so than ethnicity or my job.

When I was a kid, growing up with my parents and their largely expat friends in a foreign country, I felt totally free. I never thought about having to act in a particular way to be accepted by other people. I explored all sorts of random interests and everyone told me I was special and gifted and talented. Virtually everyone in grade school knew me and my oddities pretty much after a year or two and they must largely have put them down to me being foreign and my parents being strange, so they indulged me.

As you can imagine, when I went to high school and even more when I went to uni, that was all over. People showed me they thought I was weird, and not in a nice way. I discovered that learning is not a game. In my free time I went on these internet message boards about some of my old hobbies and my opinions got totally shot down. So – obviously – this is a spoiled brat getting a dose of reality. Fine. The problem is how I handled it. I totally stopped trusting other people. Academically, at first I put all my energy into familiar subjects (and got awful grades in everything else), then, in a kind of backlash, I turned my back on all of my former interests and forced myself to choose career options and grind away at courses on a basis totally external to myself, i.e. what would ‘look good’. For example, I forced myself to write a thesis on a topic I couldn’t care less about because I thought it would further my job prospects. I got an A after much wailing and gnashing of teeth (and indulgence by key people) but I can only think of that thesis sitting on that library shelf with disgust. I can honestly say that the years at university were the worst in my life.

I have spent the last couple of years trying to undo some of that damage. Mainly, so far, in terms of my interests and professional life (with some success): I have been trying to observe what interests me at work, to rediscover things that interest me in the subjects I studied and have another crack at them, to think about how I might follow some of those paths and also reengage with some of my old interests within the constraints of where I am now, career-wise. I guess the reason I started venting about so many things on here that I realized it was the necessary first step to reconnecting with myself in my personal life, as well.

So how does sex fit into that. As you say, not really in a central way at all. I guess I believe that sex is a part of life and you can’t really avoid it if you really want to get close to people as an adult. My sexual urges are a part of me and the fact that they are being frustrated and the source of anxiety means not as much of my resources as I would like are going into other productive things. In terms of what I said about the values of my extended family, I’m actually fairly confident that I would not end up a ‘black sheep’ if I ended up in a gay relationship, though some individual relations (sadly, I’m quite fond of some of those) would probably not like it. I would feel like a black sheep if I made a mess of my life and career through my own character failings, or if I did something really bad.



What matters more than whether we're gay or straight is how comfortable we feel in those roles and how comfrotable we feel with ourselves.

it all comes down to this: You might be gay. You might be straight. You might be inbetween.

But you, for sure, YOU. And if you don't like you or have issues with you, than knowing exactly the percentage of how much you want to be ploughed by a boy or much you want to plough a girl won't matter. The stress and concern will continue inside of you, regardless.

So maybe you're trying to put the cart before the horse. Figure whether or not you like yourself, then worry about the sex part afterwards.

Yes, I can see now that it has to be in that order.


About the friends: Never, ever sleep with a gay friend who knew you before you started questioning, unless you really have strong feelings for them. If you feel the urge to experiment, do so with some you're comfortable with, but not a friend. It can ruin support structures, etc. Trust me, been there, done it...and wasn't a big fan.

I guess this is one of the ways in which things could go horribly wrong!

i really do hope with helps.

Yes

 

[hanshansen]

You must be tired of all this, Hans, but hang in there and don't give up the quest.

I’ve been sitting here for over two hours reading and responding to these posts, and I am totally shattered. But I think it has been worth it.

Very interesting interchange here. We all approach things differently. I suspect
I'm the 'take-it-easy-let-it-happen" type. Friendship has to come first; I can't imagine really enjoying any of the "heavy stuff" without a sense of warmth and understanding from the other party. Interestiing people are those who are interested in other people; it's as simple as that to begin.

I believe all that stuff too – I guess I have had my doubts if my body believes it too, but I’ve already covered that in my reply to Luminum.

I hope you are not worrying about what would happen when it does happen; again, let it happen so that both parties are happy emotionally and, if you get that far, physically. Thank you for putting this out for us to mull over. I wish that had been available to me way back then. I was lucky to have some good friends nearby to bounce my thought onto.

What I am definitely not going to do (without deeply regretting it) is force myself into any experiences, because I know it won’t go well. Thank you for appreciating my thoughts on here. I would dearly like to have had your good fortune in feeling free to talk to people about these things when I was actually still physically an adolescent.

Now I really have to go to bed.

 

[By-Ear]

This thread is full of good advices.

In another thread you asked for advice about coming out (bi/gay) to your parents.
When reading this thread ("Physical vs. emotional sexuality, again"), I would say, that your issues is more about regaining the self-confidence and self-esteem you experienced as a child. The way you later chose, when your interests and habits were disapproved off, has resulted in you not knowing who you are. You chose to live by other peoples standards for quite some time and have, as a consequence, neglected to fully explore your own.
In your own words you have started to “undo some of that damage… with some success”. You are obviously intelligent and you use your intellect to try to sort your problems out. But you can’t do this entirely on your own. You have recently started to discuss your issues on the JUB forums which will, without doubt, help you to move further on. However, at some point in your search for who you are (sexually), you have to include other people - in flesh and blood. I’m not talking about sex or love, but meeting new people – make new friendships to gain trust and self-esteem.
Take you time, but don’t postpone what you can already do now.

…And about coming out (bi/gay) to your parents. Either tell them about your doubts or don’t tell them at all - for now. Choose the way that stress you the least.

 

[ladygrey]

Whatever your past has been, you can heal your life.

Honestly. And you're making great steps towards that now, so keep going.

I will point out though: You keep mentioning how it could go horriblely wrong, but you don't seem to ever talk about how wonderful it could be.

Life is not black and white, it's grey. You'll have experinces that are profoundly postive and you'll have some really shitty days, but overall, you'll have lived.

it's worth it, buddy.

Believe me, no matter how rough my life has been, I'm so proud and excited to live everyday because I know that I am extraordaniry and I don't want to waste a sec.

Regrets are too costly for a life of fear.

So keep changing and searching. Find the love,

And you'll make it ok.

Blessed be,
Giles

 

[MindBlast]

Speaking from my own recent experiences, it is ok and possible to be attracted physically and emotionally to men and women. The trick is to stop using porn to figure out what you want... and find people.

I say people because if you're anything like me, the individual- male or female- is what will ultimately turn you on, physically and emotionally.

Werd. Porn is fake. I'll say it again.

Porn is FAKE.

Without human interaction, it is very difficult to ever figure anything out. I knew I was gay when I got a crush on this hot muscular guy in grade 8. He was all shy so that made my crush like 10x stronger.

 

[hanshansen]

I will point out though: You keep mentioning how it could go horriblely wrong, but you don't seem to ever talk about how wonderful it could be.

A colleague at work said to me a couple of months ago (in jest, I believe) that I was the most pessimistic person she had ever met ... but life can surprise you on the upside sometimes, I'll grant you that. ;-)

Thanks Giles.

 

[hanshansen]

A brief update with which I think I can close this thread ... it's been another sleepless morning, but not because of anxiety. I think the confusion has largely lifted. My gay feelings (suppressing them, managing them, working around them) have been a constant for most of my life. The real confusion more recently has been around my feelings towards girls. I guess I'm basically gay with the potential for other stuff in the right circumstances. You could say I'm gay with a straight-curious side ... This isn't about fixing labels, it's just about becoming comfortable with an idea. And I actually had much bigger problems with this idea than I first thought when I started posting on these forums (though at the moment saying it feels surprisingly good). A big reason why the extent of my bisexuality was such an issue for me is that I had come to link my new-found ease with my friends to my having connected with my straight side, and I was really afraid that if I lost touch with that side of myself, I would lose touch with my friends too. But first, that gets the chronology wrong: I started to feel more comfortable in my own skin, then I discovered my straight side. Secondly, the really limited evidence I've collected so far suggests that I needn't have worried: I'm still not attracted to any of my friends, they aren't behaving any differently, and I still know that Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova are hot in their different ways, even though I wasn't all that aroused by them this week. Everyone has been really helpful, but on this particular point, I want to give special credit to one person on here, who has done a lot to convince me that you can identify as gay and yet come across as totally 'normal' and have a network of straight as well as gay friends, that it's basically a matter of tact and not forcing people into uncomfortable situations. I guess I have found a role model of sorts .

 

[ladygrey]

Well, I'm happy for you buddy.

It's really important for us to find what we feel comfortable with, eh?

But I will also point out: remember that those other gay people who do not act "normal" are also just as important and wonderful as you. Don't base your self esteem off of being a "normal" gay man. There's no such thing as normal, only variations of difference.

But all in and all, good job.

I'm proud of you.

Love and Light,
Giles

 

[luminum]

Good for you, hanshenshen Never feel like you can't post back if you ever become more confused or you want to work out the rest of it.

 

[hanshansen]

Well, I'm happy for you buddy.
But I will also point out: remember that those other gay people who do not act "normal" are also just as important and wonderful as you. Don't base your self esteem off of being a "normal" gay man. There's no such thing as normal, only variations of difference.

Sorry for being insensitive, Giles. There is such a thing as 'conventional', I guess, and my views on personal style (dress etc.) are conventional and not very tolerant (outside narrow margins of freedom), I know. That might change in future.

That's one of those 'sorry for having caused offence' apologies. For the record, when I was at high school, I insisted on wearing the top button of my shirt done up for the first two years (no idea why) and I had an awful haircut (courtesy of my mother). I was very defensive about the button and the haircut. But I got constantly hassled and in the end I thought to myself: 'why am I doing this to myself? This isn't essential to who I am'. So I unbuttoned that top button and went to the barber and was a lot happier. I really can't imagine how it could be any different. It's a blind spot.

 

[ladygrey]

I do understand what you're saying and thanks for the apoligies.

All I'm really trying to say is that we each have a unqiue path in this world. Yours might be to be conservitive (there is nothing wrong with that!), and others might be to wear women's clothing and lisp frequently.

Don't let my comment take away from your happiness here, I'm still very very proud of you, hun. You've come a LONG way.