Question... subject: Ignorance, Hookups, HIV, blah blah blah....

[supernovachap]

Hey guys, I want your thoughts on this. It’s part story, part rant (sort of), but 100% honest questions that I want to know the answers from. Be forewarned, it’s a long post, so please bear with me. I also apologize in advance if at any point this post gets hard to follow and for any typos. I tried my best to proof it while I was writing it, but many a time I caught myself rambling and going completely off-topic so I'm sure there are some loose ends in here somewhere. I’ve tried to present this is the best and most concise way I could, but if you have any questions or need any clarification, please say something and I’ll do my best to clear it up. I’ve been typing this for the better part of 2 hours, so it’s all starting to run together


I’ll start it off by saying that for the third time tonight (regarding this subject at least), I've been called ignorant and stupid. Because of this, I want the general public’s thoughts and opinions so I can find out if I truly am ignorant, or if I’m actually justified in my feelings and beliefs on this matter.

*FLASHBACK*
I was just chilling at home, going through yet another dating app and looking at all the hot guys, chatting with a few friends, when suddenly a new face sends me a message. I am of course happy to get the attention... he thinks I'm hot, I think he's hot, we trade pics, fun stuff right? Well we chat for a short bit and he brings up something he read in my profile about HIV testing and knowing your status and whatnot. He straight up asked me why it was there, and I told him it was because Testing and Prevention are important topics to me. I said, "I'm a young guy (21) and I don't want to do something I might regret and have to live with those consequences. I’ve seen the effects on someone close to me, and I want to try and save myself from doing the same."

He then proceeds to ask me if I'm "poz-friendly," to which I respond "No, sorry." He tells me what I shame it is, and that it's so sad how ignorant I am and how stupid it is that I won't have sex with someone who is HIV+. I reply back saying how it is not ignorant to want to protect and live my life as long as I can. He gets mad, tells me how I’m wrong, calls me a few other lovely names that I won’t say here… and then I get kinda pissed and blocked him, end of conversation
*END FLASHBACK*

For me, this is starting to become a common occurrence in the world of dating apps. I would like to think that surely I’m not the only one that thinks like this, and this doesn’t just happen to me, but it really got me thinking… could it really be true? Is it really ignorance that's clouding my judgment? Am I just some stupid kid that doesn't know anything about the world he lives in? Am I so afraid of getting something that I’m refusing to have sex just because someone has HIV? Even worse, what would happen if someone I really like and want to get to know as more than friends tells me he is HIV+? What would I do?

To be clear, my stance and general mantra on the subject of hookups and sex with anyone in general has always been this:
Safe sex only. Period. End of story. No sex with someone who is HIV+ or has another un-curable STD, regardless of the treatment they are on or if they say they are "undetectable and living a healthy lifestyle.” There is always a risk. ALWAYS (if nothing else) ask their status, ALWAYS use good judgment and common sense, be prepared, and if it doesn't feel right DON'T DO IT"

Contrary to the picture that I may be painting, I would like to quickly clarify that I don't hookup often. I try not to spread myself around and be called not nice things (whore, slut, floozy… trollop would be my term of choice if I had to pick), but I’m not going to lie… there are some damn sexy guys out there and I would love nothing more than to jump their bones (and get to know them, of course). I’m a guy, I get tired of always using my hand, and sometimes it’s nice to actually be with someone instead of having to fantasize about it. It happens, so you deal with it the best you can and move on after the urge strikes. However, I've always felt that having fun for an hour or two with a hot guy is never worth a lifetime of having to deal with a disease that is life-threatening and potentially deadly. There is no excuse to do something possibly harmful to your health if you know there is a major risk up front. Therefore, I always ask their status. It doesn’t mean they’re going to be honest about it, but I ALWAYS ask.

I talk to a lot of guys on dating apps… though not always with the intent of hooking up with them. Sometimes we talk about normal and casual stuff. But let’s be real, it’s usually about sexy and naughty stuff 69:). Generally, such conversations always lead to hooking up and doing it for real. There have been plenty of guys who are HIV+ that I’ve chatted with who are extremely nice and respectful, and I let them know as soon as I am aware of their status that I’m not going to actually have sex with them. I tell them why and they usually say “alright, that’s fine”, and we continue about our conversation and life goes on. Sometimes they don’t even ask why, they just move on and we pick up right where we left off. Does it suck? Yes, because a lot of them are hot and I would love to get with them. Does that mean I’m going to do something with them anyway that could potentially get me in a lot of trouble down the road of life? No.

I think I know what a few of you are thinking by now… “Just have safe sex and use a condom, no worries,” or “why are you making such a big deal out of this?” Perhaps my personal favorite, “quit whining like a little girl and don’t be so paranoid.” So, I’m going to wrap this up so to speak (see what I did there?).

As I’ve said, there have been three separate times I’ve been called ignorant and stupid because I wouldn’t hookup with someone who I know could potentially pass on the HIV virus to me. So here are my questions to all of you, my friends and fellow Jubbers (pick one, pick none, pick them all, but any feedback is welcome and encouraged)…

Is it truly ignorance to NOT have sex with someone who is HIV+, even if you use protection?

Is it really so horrible of a thing to pass on a hot guy, just because he has HIV?

What would you do in the same situation?

Honesty is the key here gents. I don’t have to like your answer, in fact I may hate it, but it’s still one more answer I have to think about and I appreciate it nonetheless.

Oh, and just in case I was on one, let me step off my

So, there you go men, and let the fun begin…

P.S. If this post is in the wrong section, please let me know and I’ll delete it, or move it, or do whatever…

 

[vidarr]

As a poz guy myself I look at it the other way around..
I've been rejected by plenty of guys. It sucks yeah, but in the end I accept their decision.

The ONLY thing that bothers me is when people make ignorant decisions based on the wrong information.

If I met someone in the future with another incurable disease, I would find out the information myself and talk with the person first before rejecting them flat out.
That's just me, you are free to make your choice to not date HIV+ people and I don't judge you for that...

I do think you are missing out on some amazing people though...
Be safe

 

[jensu846]

No you are not ignorant at all, I didnt have to get half way thru your post to realize that. I have been offered sex by HIV guys before and after I found out, I respecitvly declined. Nobody freaked out on me or anything. I think they have to be used to that, unfortunatly.
There are millions of Non poz guys to pick from, so why put yourself in potential harm on purpose. I dont think its paranoia, I think its the survival instinct.

 

[Benvolio]

I would never intentionally have sex with an HIV positive person. Sex is never completely safe. Accidents happen. Condom breaks, semen splashes to the eye, etc. Even mutual masturbation can transfer semen.
If you take the risk, you may spend the next few months worrying about it.
Of course, you should always practice safe sex, but you should also, in my opinion, avoid anyone you know or have reason to suspect is positive. You can ask, but people sometimes lie, so you cannot rely upon it. If he tells you the truth, it may spread through the internet when he is trying to keep it private. I sometimes say" I won't ask you, but I will say that I would not meet you if I did not believe you are negative." It does not put him on the spot. He has no reason to lie. A negative person will usually say so. If he is positive and conscientious he can back away without admitting anything. I mostly hire escorts, so the arrangements are different but the rules can be the same.

 

[2untru]

I think your logic is fine, it's your body and you can do what you want with it according to the rules you set for yourself.

I'll never say never because I know there are always extenuating circumstances that can be involved. I wouldn't cut off a potential friendship with someone who is positive, but I would take sex off the table. If that's an issue then they probably are looking for a personal connection. I would engage in a relationship with a positive person but it would be a looooong courtship following an epic friendship. No lies, secrets, and constant reassurance of each other as human beings. Even though I know being HIV+ doesn't mean death, in the fantasy world I live in I would have to ask myself with the utmost seriousness "am I willing to die for this person...am I willing to die with this person". In terms of just sex, probably not.

I've always wondered something about poz guys who cruise guyz online. I LOVE that they admit they are poz, but I get confused when they say they want sex, especially bb sex. I don't hate them for it, but I also don't like it. How is it 'okay' to do bb while poz (porn included)?

 

[bankside]

My rule has always been that I don't fuck people I don't know. And that I wouldn't let a stranger put his penis inside my body if he were wearing a scuba suit, never mind a half-milimetre of latex.

This strategy has kept me free of infection, and free of strangers all up in my orifices.

 

[KaraBulut]

These days, the question is not whether a person is HIV+. The question is, "what is their viral load?". The studies say that a person with a negligible viral load poses a low risk of infection, especially when safer sex is practiced.

We know how HIV is transmitted in most cases- receptive anal sex, usually without a condom. Sure- there are rare freak occurrences involving condom breaks but that's not how most people are getting it.

The idea that someone tells you that they are HIV- is false security. For some reason, we treat HIV+ people as risky but when we don't know a person's HIV status, we consider the situation to be less risky. If you're topping someone who is HIV+ with a condom, the risk of infection is about the same as performing the same act with an HIV- person or a person who status you don't know. If you're bottoming with a condom, the risk is also low- particularly if the person is on meds and has a low viral load.

That's the rational approach, though. Most people are afraid to be physically intimate with an HIV+ person because of an irrational fear. In the end, it's your body and you do have the right to have sex with whomever your choose.

 

[SimplyRed]

I can't even get an erection sleeping with some I knew was poz. Whenever someone tell me they are poz I don't use that as a reason to not sleep with them, I normally create a soft lie. It works and no feelings are hurt. I wants folks to be honest. Imagine that.

 

[mbamike]

We know how HIV is transmitted in most cases- receptive anal sex, usually without a condom.

I may be learning something here, but need my logic verified. I am fixated on the word "receptive." I get that bottoms are at higher risk of infection than tops during unprotected anal sex from this explanation. Then I found this little gem in the Stickies.

"The investigators also estimated that receptive anal intercourse was the main (69%) mode of HIV transmission.
However, they attributed 28% of infections to insertive anal sex and 3% to oral sex."

Since I am always the bottom, I am in the highest risk category (top, versatile, bottom) of gays.

Am I on the right track?

 

[nafhoosier]

Everybody has their own preferences when it comes to dating.

It is not ignorant to not want to date an HIV-Positive men. There are in fact many Poz guys who hate dating other Neg guys for fear of infecting them. The card goes both ways.

What is ignorant is if you don't want to date other HIV positive men or hook up with them, but engage in unsafe sexual practices yourself that put you at risk of being infected.

Check out this video from Youtube to see what I mean.

 

[KaraBulut]

I may be learning something here, but need my logic verified. I am fixated on the word "receptive." I get that bottoms are at higher risk of infection than tops during unprotected anal sex from this explanation. Then I found this little gem in the Stickies.

"The investigators also estimated that receptive anal intercourse was the main (69%) mode of HIV transmission.
However, they attributed 28% of infections to insertive anal sex and 3% to oral sex."

Since I am always the bottom, I am in the highest risk category (top, versatile, bottom) of gays.

Am I on the right track?

You are on track.

It's a very complicated scenario. Why? Because these studies are not controlled studies- they're not happening in a lab where we can be sure whether the subjects are telling the truth. And a lot of guys are versatile, so it's hard to know whether they contracted HIV from being on top or on bottom (same issue on oral versus anal transmission- most guys do both, not exclusively one or the other).

Here's what we do know from several studies:

• The best studies involve cases where we know one of the partner's HIV status (known as serodiscordant couples)
• The best studies look at circumcised vs uncircumcised men. This is controversial but multiple studies support the conclusion that uncircumcised men are at higher risk when they are the insertive ("top) partner. This is one reason that in the US, we have traditionally believed that HIV cannot be transmitted from bottom to top- most US men are circumcised.
• It's important to keep in mind that these are studies of unprotected sex where condoms were not used.
• From the results, we believe that the risk to a bottom is about 10 to 15 times higher if the guy comes in the bottom's ass. If he doesn't come, the odds are 5 to 10 times higher.
• Interestingly, the insertive partner (i.e. the top) has a 5 to 10 times higher risk if he is uncircumcised versus circumcised.

Now, with that said... this is the no flame zone. I also try to make my posts in the forum neutral on the issue of circumcision. So, I want to be very clear about something: I do not propose these statistics about circumcision as a suggestion that this is the way to avoid HIV infection.

If you want to avoid HIV transmission, use condoms, reduce your number of sex partners and don't make stupid mistakes when you're drunk or fucked up. It's a lot smarter to put on a condom than to get your foreskin cut off.

I want to make sure this this information is out there because the studies that have come from the US for the past 30 years have made it sound like tops aren't at risk. In the US, we have a bias towards circumcision and we missed an important and critical piece of data in our studies- namely that cut versus uncut status is important when studying HIV transmission from bottom to top.

Because most of Europe, the Far East and Africa do not have the circumcision rates of the US, Middle East and Australia, insertive partners (i.e. tops), men in these countries should use condoms when they are topping. It's not enough to let the bottom make the choice of whether to use a condom. Tops have to be responsible on this issue, too.