Staying Friends.

[Raistanelf]

Hey fellow reader people.
So - I need some advice on a situation.

About a month ago, two of my friends who were dating, Sally and Bob, broke up. Sally was not happy in the relationship, and Bob did not handle it well when she ended things. Sally had to threaten him with legal action before he stopped calling and pestering her.

Now see, I was friends with both of them before they started dating , and I like both of them - however, since the break up, I find myself annoyed with Bob.

Ya see, Bob's the kinda guy that many of us would love to marry - he's smart, he's sweet, he's funny - his idea of an awesome evening is to lie in bed and talk the night away. I've known him since I was 5.
Sally on the other hand, is a really tough cookie to say the least - she's smart, independent, and does not take crap from anyone - She's a bit of a wild girl - if you heard she'd been in a bar fight with a trucker, you'd probably not be too surprised - she'd probably have won the fight btw.

Now see, post break up, I find it hard to be friends with Bob - I think the way he reacted when Sally chose to end things was really childish ( think tantrums, name calling and stalkerish behaviour), and I find it hard to respect anything he says now, as he's basically going with this attitude of 'Oh, you didn't see me doing anything weird' , and he's acting like a real douchebag , picking fights when people point out simple things like 'Hey bob, your shirt's inside out' . I think I just expected him to realise why his behaviour drove Sally away, but he's feeling like he did nothing wrong, and that Sally's a bitch.

I'm still good friends with Sally, cos I think she did the right thing in getting out of a relationship she wasn't happy in and didn't feel safe in - I think it was a mature thing to do, and I would do the same thing, having gotten out of an abusive relationship myself.

My question is : Do you think I'm being too harsh on Bob, or am I right in feeling that I don't know who this guy is anymore. Is it two faced of me to smile to his face and be absolutely disgusted at his behaviour when he's not around ?
What should I do ? Should I try and evolve around his new behaviour, or should I realise my friend is changed and that I don't like this new person, and just drop out of his life ?
What do you guys think ?

 

[RiverRat]

It is always tough when you know both. Don't take sides in terms of assessing who is to blame. There is no reason to because they have already decided to break up. THey will either stay apart or resolve the problems. Your input will not likely alter that. If you get involved you risk alienating both. I would just adopt an I LOVE BOTH YOU GUYS SORRY THAT IT ISN'T WORKING approach.
You are not being two faced. You are entitled to your opinion but that does mean you have to verbalize it. Stay out of the line of fire.
Randy

 

[Ryuukie]

Is it two faced of me to smile to his face and be absolutely disgusted at his behaviour when he's not around ?
What should I do ? Should I try and evolve around his new behaviour, or should I realise my friend is changed and that I don't like this new person, and just drop out of his life ?
What do you guys think ?

Yes, it's being two-faced. You need to let some time pass before you abandon anyone. We all hope to be able to handle a tough situation with the proper decorum. But until you're in that exact situation, you really can't judge Bob or anyone.

 

[Raistanelf]

Hmm - not voicing an opinion would have been a good way to go, but unfortunately, I've already voiced that I think Bob was stupid - things ended so badly that if Bob attempted to call Sally, she had the right to take him to court and get a restraining order, because she'd already asked him to stop talking to her - because I'd been there from day one ( I'd had to look after Bob after Sally ended things , because he'd threatened to end his life etc ), I would have had to testify in court .

Whilst I'm still friends with Sally, Bob got mad at me when I yelled at him for calling Sally - I did not want to have to go to court and he didn't believe me when I told him that she was serious about getting the court involved.

There is another mutual friend involved who is completely on Bob's side, and is disliking Sally - I'm confused because whilst I see why Bob did what he did, I still think Sally was right -

Because I've made how I feel clear, I'm kinda in the middle of three friends : Sally ( who I support), Bob( who i think has been an idiot) and Friend 3 ( who just wants everyone to get along cos Friend 3 doesn't like uproar, and is trying to make me be friends with Bob and not Sally )

My question is : do you think I've alienated him beyond all hope of recovering our friendship ? Is Friend 3 being unnecessarily pushy in demanding that I stay friends with Bob ?

THIS IS SO CONFUSING !!! ARGH !!!!

 

[Raistanelf]

Yes, it's being two-faced. You need to let some time pass before you abandon anyone. We all hope to be able to handle a tough situation with the proper decorum. But until you're in that exact situation, you really can't judge Bob or anyone.

Hey - I appreciate that - I've been through my own stuff,which was family based, and I'm still going through it - I guess I am being way too harsh on Bob - but I think I'm just wondering how to best behave now - should I try and be chums or keep my distance till Bob speaks to me again ?
The last thing I want is to have to pretend that everything's all good and fine .

 

[RiverRat]

Just say to all involved I'm sorry I voiced any qpinion. This is something the two of you need to work out. I am here for you but I am not going to take sides.

 

[Txgoodoldboy]

Sounds like Bob needs some professional help. (Shrink) (Or counselling)

I would not talk about the other person, when you are with the other person.

 

[Raistanelf]

Hmm - it seems like the bulk of y'all are saying to stick it out and that maybe things will get better?

Bob was seeing a counsellor for a bit, but I have no clue if he's still going...plus asking would probably have him flipping out again..

 

[Raistanelf]

Just say to all involved I'm sorry I voiced any qpinion. This is something the two of you need to work out. I am here for you but I am not going to take sides.

Hey River Rat - whilst your advice is sound, at this point , both of them have ended it. I didn't take sides, but now , because Bob is mad at me for trying to stop him from getting sent to jail, I'm mad at Bob, and am trying to figure out how to deal with him - He's the kind of guy that cant admit when he's done something wrong, so, in order to stay friends, I'd probably have to act like everythings cool, which is something I'm not totally comfortable doing.

 

[MatttheBruinsfan]

While I try to stay out of things when friends of mine break up, in your situation I'd have to ask myself why bother worrying about staying friends with someone who's revealing an intensely negative, out-of-control side of himself and turning on me for not supporting him in his adventures in stalking. I'd burn a CD with "Hit the Road, Jack" on it and hand it to him as a goodbye present.

 

[texan_slant]

Most of my friends are couples, all of who I consider to be friends. If both of your friendships were important to you to begin with, you should have to taken a step back and become a true third party - and not make an alliance to one side or another.

There is always two sides to a story, and you can never judge what goes on behind closed doors, or how two people are in their own relationships. Everyone has their own different dynamic when they are with and around other people.

For example, people change behaviors or act differently when they are around other people than yourself. Either Sally or Bob can be totally different people when they are not around you, or in their own relationship. What is someone else's reality, however truthful or not that it could be to YOU, could be a totally different reality or perspective to someone else.

Don't forget that Bob is grieving, even though his behavior is immature. Breakups are like losses, and you can never judge one's reaction.

Because actions speak louder than words, Bob is reacting to the fact that you have taken sides. Ask yourself this - if you had stayed neutral, or stayed out of the breakup, and ONLY listened and offered a word of support, do you think that Bob would be reacting the way that he does towards you?

Through your actions, you are basically throwing your friendship with Bob under the bus. It should have been best to stay out of it, or stay neutral - with having formulated no judgements. Others' partner-relationships should have no bearing on your own personal friendships. I view friendships themselves as very personal and specific to me and <friend> and nobody else's dynamic cuz that's all it should thrive on.

Unfortunately, you had the added dimension of a friendship with Sally, which should have it's own dynamic independent of Bob's.

If your friendship with Bob was strong enough, and not dependent on your friendship with Sally, it will last through this tough time; if not, it was never meant to be.

 

[texan_slant]

To clarify further my last post, in **Bob's eyes**, Sally could very well have been a bitch in their relationship. Maybe their dynamic brings it out in her. Maybe vice versa - but who knows?

If you thought about your friendship with Bob as something in it's own container and compartment without the Sally b.s., were there really any issues with it? Was he a jerk to you? If so, that would be proof in the pudding.

...or did you trust/respect him as a person, and see him as someone with integrity? The same questions can be posed when thinking of Sally.

That is the way you should be viewing your friendships.

 

[neditesjamais]

Yes, aren't relationships a wonderfully confusing mess? Sooner or later, just about everyone ends up in one of these "who gets which friends in the 'divorce'" scenarios. Sorry you're being sucked into the undertow.

Have you tried separating your feelings about each person from your responses to their actions? Love the person; hate the behavior? That can help you at least get a bit more clarity for yourself and reduce your own confusion. Sounds cheesy, but a 2-column list for each of them can really slow down your brain and give you specific things to talk about, too.

You might then try telling each one of them some of the things on your lists. Start with the "I really like ______ about you" to let them know why you value their friendship. AND, give them very specifics about the actions that you won't put up with: "When you ________, I'm going to turn around and walk away from you because I won't put up with it any more."

Like most advice, this is easy to give and hard to follow. But it does work. I've used it. And regretted not using it. What do you think?

 

[Raistanelf]

Yes, aren't relationships a wonderfully confusing mess? Sooner or later, just about everyone ends up in one of these "who gets which friends in the 'divorce'" scenarios. Sorry you're being sucked into the undertow.

Have you tried separating your feelings about each person from your responses to their actions? Love the person; hate the behavior? That can help you at least get a bit more clarity for yourself and reduce your own confusion. Sounds cheesy, but a 2-column list for each of them can really slow down your brain and give you specific things to talk about, too.

You might then try telling each one of them some of the things on your lists. Start with the "I really like ______ about you" to let them know why you value their friendship. AND, give them very specifics about the actions that you won't put up with: "When you ________, I'm going to turn around and walk away from you because I won't put up with it any more."

Like most advice, this is easy to give and hard to follow. But it does work. I've used it. And regretted not using it. What do you think?

We think alike bro haha - I made those lists , but I haven't spoken to them about it individually.
I believe my problem lies in the expectation that I will remain friends with Bob - the other mutual friends who have come through are all feeling that they should remain friends with Bob, because we haven't been there for him.
Now whilst that makes sense, I seem to be the only one that feels like Bob pushed us away, Bob did not want us involved, and that I cannot turn to Bob in my time of trouble ( see my other posting , Emotional Attachment to a straight friend). I don't HAVE to stay friends with Bob...it might be the socially correct thing to do, but personally...
If he was still the same guy , it would be easier, but he's changed - he's meaner, and more likely to pick a fight over something ... He's always had this ' Oh, I'm totally smarter than you ' attitude, and before, he tried to at least pretend that he didn't....Now he's basically smacking you in the face with it .
I don't like the new Bob - unfortunately, because I've known him since I was five, it is difficult to simply cut the tie and walk away...If Sally had turned out to be a complete biatch, it would be easy, cos I've only known her for like a year...
sigh.

 

[syoBsUtsuJ]

I would tell, "Mr. Bob" that stupid is as stupid does, and we all do as we do until we learn better. Please endeavor to remain objective and non-judgmental by specifically pointing out behaviors and NOT being definitive of him as a person. I have found that most people respond best to analogies to get a point across (i.e. "the boy who cried wolf").

I appreciate you reaching out like this to help your friend, but just KNOW that we cannot change others ... only yourself. From the gist of your story, you and Bob have been friends for quite some time; friendships like that don't grow on trees. In the same breath, a true friend will tell you when you're being an ass.

I'm sure you've heard, "An expectation is nothing more than a down-payment on a resentment." Methinks you're both in a reactionary state full of reactionary emotion to current stimuli. Not to sound too cliché, but don't you think/feel it's time to start "acting" and not "reacting"? You're obviously an intelligent man, and despite his irrational behavior, I'm sure Bob is too, hence your long friendship with one another. It's just human to lash out when we're hurting; we have some primal, if stupid innate need to make others as miserable as we are.

But, I also understand the need to sever ties with someone that won't help themselves. Thankfully, per your previous experience with your abusive relationship, you were able to learn and grow from said trauma. If after a few attempts at helping Mr. Bob, and he is still resistant to growth (acceptance, healing, and moving on), respectfully apologize to him formally and express, "I cannot remain friends with you as your attitude and behaviors are detrimental to my well-being." Lol ... or in your own words.