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Torture Party's Bush Does It Again

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Bush just vetoed a bill that would have outlawed waterboarding* by the CIA (by making them follow the Army Field Manual practices on interrogation). Usually he vetoes these things at 4:30 on a Friday, because then the news cycle doesn't pick it up. Instead he did it today, which has almost the same effect.

This is why we can now call the Republican Party the "Torture Party." They say "we don't torture" then define torture as "whatever it is we don't do." Anyone who buys that logic is just plain stupid.

Reuter's Story


*A torture technique where the subject is repeatedly partially drowned
 
No wonder half the world hates us and the other half doesn't trust us.
 
Whats wrong with torture, its only a bunch of Arabs we torture. Those barbarians' lives don't have any value anyways. We should teach them how not to be barbaric by torturing them. Oh, but doesn't that make us barbaric as well.
 
Bush thinks correctly that reducing our ability to get information against the war on terror puts U.S. citizens lives at risk

and is a bad move

i agree
 
Bush thinks correctly that reducing our ability to get information against the war on terror puts U.S. citizens lives at risk

and is a bad move

i agree

Prohibiting torture does not reduce our ability to get information against the war on terror, because in addition to moral considerations it is an ineffective technique for extracting information from suspects or even known terrorists. I have this from multiple professional military interrogators. Real life is not like 24.

What torture is useful for is to get a suspect to confess--but you have to know the content of the confession beforehand, and the torture is used to program the victim to recite it, sometimes even to believe it. This works even better on a suspect who starts out completely innocent of any crime than it does on someone with a guilty conscience.

But the real reason we shouldn't do it is that it's barbaric and unAmerican. If America becomes barbaric and unAmerican as a nation...it makes no difference which side wins, because either way everyone has to live under barbarism.
 
Prohibiting torture does not reduce our ability to get information against the war on terror, because in addition to moral considerations it is an ineffective technique for extracting information from suspects or even known terrorists. I have this from multiple professional military interrogators. Real life is not like 24.

What torture is useful for is to get a suspect to confess--but you have to know the content of the confession beforehand, and the torture is used to program the victim to recite it, sometimes even to believe it. This works even better on a suspect who starts out completely innocent of any crime than it does on someone with a guilty conscience.

But the real reason we shouldn't do it is that it's barbaric and unAmerican. If America becomes barbaric and unAmerican as a nation...it makes no difference which side wins, because either way everyone has to live under barbarism.


seems like it did pretty well with Khalid Sheik Mohammed

i agree that TORTURE is not right - there's plenty of methods that i believe r beneath us - that no matter what - u don't go there

but waterboarding IMO - is not one of them
 
seems like it did pretty well with Khalid Sheik Mohammed

i agree that TORTURE is not right - there's plenty of methods that i believe r beneath us - that no matter what - u don't go there

but waterboarding IMO - is not one of them

I agree chance 1.
 
seems like it did pretty well with Khalid Sheik Mohammed

i agree that TORTURE is not right - there's plenty of methods that i believe r beneath us - that no matter what - u don't go there

but waterboarding IMO - is not one of them

I have spoken to people who have experienced waterboarding as the subject, as part of their training (in resisting unlawful interrogation techniques). They knew it was limited, that they weren't really going to be killed, and that the people doing it to them were skilled and on their side, and it was still almost a mind-destroying event.

They say it's a torture technique.

Also, after WWII a couple of Japanese commanders were sentenced to long prison terms for waterboarding US prisoners, because it's torture. The US is on record as saying waterboarding is torture. If it's torture when they do it to us, it's torture when we do it to them, and it doesn't matter how evil "they" are (and trust me, I think Al Qaeda is plenty evil...I worked in the WTC), it's still beneath us to do it.
 
I have spoken to people who have experienced waterboarding as the subject, as part of their training (in resisting unlawful interrogation techniques). They knew it was limited, that they weren't really going to be killed, and that the people doing it to them were skilled and on their side, and it was still almost a mind-destroying event.

They say it's a torture technique.

Also, after WWII a couple of Japanese commanders were sentenced to long prison terms for waterboarding US prisoners, because it's torture. The US is on record as saying waterboarding is torture. If it's torture when they do it to us, it's torture when we do it to them, and it doesn't matter how evil "they" are (and trust me, I think Al Qaeda is plenty evil...I worked in the WTC), it's still beneath us to do it.

I respect ur feelings on this - and strong beliefs - seems like u probably know a bit more about it than me

For me, the balance between "doing the right thing" and getting info to save innocent lives is not as clear as for u

and getting intel is critical - and i trust that those doing the interrogating know their biz - know what works - know where they need to go in order to get what they need
 
Yes, they do. There's a whole different purpose to torture, having nothing to do with getting information.

As far as interrogation goes...my interrogator friend says that most of what he does he could do to a friend at a party without offending anyone. People don't like to hear that, because you're supposed to be mean to the bad guys--it's more satisfying. But if you're more pragmatic, you get a lot more information by being nice to them.

Which totally SUCKS. But that's how it works.
 
seems like it did pretty well with Khalid Sheik Mohammed

i agree that TORTURE is not right - there's plenty of methods that i believe r beneath us - that no matter what - u don't go there

but waterboarding IMO - is not one of them

Once again I submit an article that proves waterboarding KSM did not reveal information that actually saved lives.



http://waterboarding.org/success_story

Waterboarding Success Stories: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Library Tower



The waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is often cited as one of the major waterboarding "success stories". ABC News reporter Brian Ross credited waterboarding for the crucial information used to avert the destruction of Library Tower.

ROSS: That has happened in some cases where the material that's been given has not been accurate, has been essentially to stop the torture. In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Library Tower.

The US Bank Tower plot was revealed to the public by President Bush on February 9, 2006 in a speech to the National Guard Association:

In the weeks after September the 11th, while Americans were still recovering from an unprecedented strike on our homeland, al Qaeda was already busy planning its next attack. We now know that in October 2001, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad -- the mastermind of the September the 11th attacks -- had already set in motion a plan to have terrorist operatives hijack an airplane using shoe bombs to breach the cockpit door, and fly the plane into the tallest building on the West Coast. We believe the intended target was Liberty [sic] Tower in Los Angeles, California.

Rather than use Arab hijackers as he had on September the 11th, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad sought out young men from Southeast Asia -- whom he believed would not arouse as much suspicion. To help carry out this plan, he tapped a terrorist named Hambali [Riduan Isamuddin], one of the leaders of an al Qaeda affiliated group in Southeast Asia called "J-I" [Jemaah Islamiyah]. JI terrorists were responsible for a series of deadly attacks in Southeast Asia, and members of the group had trained with al Qaeda. Hambali recruited several key operatives who had been training in Afghanistan. Once the operatives were recruited, they met with Osama bin Laden, and then began preparations for the West Coast attack.

Their plot was derailed in early 2002 when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al Qaeda operative. Subsequent debriefings and other intelligence operations made clear the intended target, and how al Qaeda hoped to execute it. This critical intelligence helped other allies capture the ringleaders and other known operatives who had been recruited for this plot. The West Coast plot had been thwarted.

Which aspects of this plot could Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's waterboarding have revealed?

* We learned about Al Qaeda's interest in flying planes into buildings on September 11, 2001.
* We knew about Al Qaeda's use of shoe bombs from Richard Reid, captured in December 22, 2001.
* We knew about Jemaah Islamiyah at least since the Bali Bomb attack on October 12, 2002.
* The "key al Qaeda operative" and pilot for the plot, Zaini Zakari, was arrested by Malaysian authorities in December 2002.

[RED]Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in Rawalpindi, Pakistan on March 1, 2003 — after the plot was discovered, after the plot was "derailed", after the pilot of the plane was captured. Khaled Sheikh Mohammed could not have "provided valuable information and saved lives" when all aspects of the plot were well-known and the attack had been foiled prior to his capture.[/RED]
Coercive interrogation is extremely effective at obtaining confessions. Evidence obtained from coercive interrogation is highly dubious and must be corroborated with reliable sources. The claims of interrogators who coerce their prisoners should be treated with as much skepticism as the claims of the prisoners themselves.
 
How long have we known that every violent prisoner in American prisons is innocent of his crime? Answer: From the beginning of our nation. How long have authorities in American prisons known not to believe in anything a violent criminal claims to be true? Answer: From the beginning of our nation. How long have American Authorities interrogated with torture techniques? Answer: Since the beginning of the Bush Administration.

What has changed in America that we believe torture provides accurate information about future terrorist attacks? Answer: America made a mistake when voters allowed an imbecile and a NeoNazi to take over our government and institute their Neocon agenda.

Why do so many ill informed Americans believe the imbecile and the NeoNazi are right in everything they choose to do? Answer: Because the imbecile and NeoNazi have learned that a large percentage of Americans are fat and lazy and easily frightened by boogyman stories.

Welcome to the land of make believe.
 
How long have we known that every violent prisoner in American prisons is innocent of his crime? Answer: From the beginning of our nation. How long have authorities in American prisons known not to believe in anything a violent criminal claims to be true? Answer: From the beginning of our nation. How long have American Authorities interrogated with torture techniques? Answer: Since the beginning of the Bush Administration.

What has changed in America that we believe torture provides accurate information about future terrorist attacks? Answer: America made a mistake when voters allowed an imbecile and a NeoNazi to take over our government and institute their Neocon agenda.

Why do so many ill informed Americans believe the imbecile and the NeoNazi are right in everything they choose to do? Answer: Because the imbecile and NeoNazi have learned that a large percentage of Americans are fat and lazy and easily frightened by boogyman stories.

Welcome to the land of make believe.

i love the color thingy - very clear ;)

at least us said NEO Nazi - not nazi - that's a start :rolleyes:

and i resent the "fat and lazy" - well, maybe the fat

what's a boogyman?

the "land of make believe" - me thinks ur referring to JUB

as for KSM - i read that waterboarding was the ticket - will have to look for the site

again, i think the crux of the argument is i elect public officials to safeguard my well being - and since 911 no attacks

id call that a good job

and im comfortable with their techniques

call me ............

safe
 
again, i think the crux of the argument is i elect public officials to safeguard my well being - and since 911 no attacks

id call that a good job

I've never understood the "no attacks since 9/11" argument. There have only been 2 Islamic-extremist terrorist attacks in the USA, the other in 1993. What evidence suggests their frequency would be any greater since 2001?

And considering the failure of the Bush Administration to recognize clear warning signs of impending attack, what makes you think they're any more likely to spot the signs because of torturing people?
 
I've never understood the "no attacks since 9/11" argument. There have only been 2 Islamic-extremist terrorist attacks in the USA, the other in 1993. What evidence suggests their frequency would be any greater since 2001?

And considering the failure of the Bush Administration to recognize clear warning signs of impending attack, what makes you think they're any more likely to spot the signs because of torturing people?

im pretty happy that since 911 - there have been no repeats on U.S. soil - cuz i live in ny and 911 was really bad - not looking to pin any medals on anyone but ........

willing to say "good thing and not an accident"

we trash gwb for all things wrong

so .......

in the spirit of fair play - he gets an A- (and a cookie) for no attacks on US soil - IMO

as for terrorists/techniques - well hand in hand i believe - deterrent, info gathering - all part of it

as for the thread title "torture party's bush" - kinda frames it lamely

IMO of course :D
 
[...]

as for KSM - i read that waterboarding was the ticket - will have to look for the site

Look no further, it's here, you also tried to bring it up once again here, it has been desconstructed and as usual you ignored.

again, i think the crux of the argument is i elect public officials to safeguard my well being - and since 911 no attacks

You mean like the time square bombing? (the 3rd attack from that suspected individual/group).


I've never understood the "no attacks since 9/11" argument. There have only been 2 Islamic-extremist terrorist attacks in the USA, the other in 1993. What evidence suggests their frequency would be any greater since 2001?

Very good point... makes too much sense not to be completely ignored by the pro-barbarism crowd tho ...

Sorry but as far as 9-11 goes, it's very possible that 9-11 could have been prevented if Bush and friends had been paying attention. He ignored clear warning signs.

Very good point... not only did he ignore clear warning signs but he also ignored clear warnings from multiple sources... once again Bush appologists will give him a free ride on that.
 
And Chance apparently has forgotten the Anthrax attacks later that same fall. Didn't prevent those, did they?

Oh, wait, I forgot that if you're a Bushista it doesn't count as a terrorist attack unless it was prevented. This is because "there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11" is taken as divine scripture, therefore anything that has happened since 9/11 is not a terrorist attack.

Six guys with a vague plan to attack a military base, that they only thought they could do because a government provocateur told them they could? Terrorists, OMG I'm so glad Our Government Saved Us! Someone specifically targeting Congress and several newspapers with a bioweapon? That's not terrorism, that's just some crazy.

Even the old Soviet Union ("But he is not being executed. He is being shot") simulated logic better than that.
 
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