Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi men

[natalietruman]

I have met one and he poured his heart to me about being gay but not 100% and every now and then he is attracted to women but most gay men refuse to believe that and are no help whatsoever. I want to know why too?? because loads of gay men believe there are straight men who are a little bi. We had a huge discussion tonight and it really is sad that homosexual men are the worst offenders when it comes to being a little attracted to some women. Is it pure jealousy?

 

[hummer7979]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

Hi there

I think there's a lot of mystery to the ways in which sexuality works, mostly because it's just so hard to get accurate information from surveys. Very few people, I think, explore the full extent of their sexuality.

That said, I think a lot of people make assumptions about sexuality in general based on their own experiences.

Most gay people (as well as straight people) will say that their attraction to a specific sex is not a choice. Bisexuality can come across as challenging that idea, that sexuality need not be confined to a specific sex.

I think also that there is some skepticism involved, particularly that if bisexuals can potentially be happy being in only straight relationships, why would they go through the misery of coming out to a world that is predominantly anti-gay unless that same-sex attraction is so strong that he/she is probably just gay?

And of course, a lot of gay people come out as bisexual either because it feel less stigmatizing, or they aren't yet sure that they are only attracted to one sex. Therefore, many gay people see bisexuality as another word for a gay person who is either having an identity crisis or is slightly homophobic.

Unfortunately, this view is particularly bad for bisexuals who aren't having an identity crisis and aren't homophobic. I think there just has to be more acceptance that people are capable of being something that you might not be able to understand or empathize with. It's also important to keep an open mind about the formation of sexual identity. It's necessary to form your ideas around the evidence that exists in the world, rather than reject the things that don't fit with the view that you've decided upon.

 

[bluepheonix]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

I was doing some reading for a pol sci essay on identity the other week, I'm not saying this is the only reason, or a justifiable reason, or my own feelings, its just one theory I came across.

The basic background:
- Identity is a bunch of characteristics or differences which are recognised as different and have social significance attached too them.
- Gay and Lesbian people (just limiting it to these groups atm, there are more I know) have traditionally had a negative identity imposed upon them by the dominant group (heterosexuals/men),
- Liberation seeks to reform the 'gay' identity into something without the negative connotations previously attached to it, gaining equality, and de-internalising oppression,

2 main forms of identity theory are 1) Essentialism (Gay/Lesbian) which really seeks to redefine a categorised identity into an equally categorised but self imposed identity, 2) Constructivism (in our case dominated by what is known as Queer Theory) which seeks to acknowledge a spectrum and fluidity of identity.

I suspect, and the readings I did agree, that the gay bias (not necessarily universal) against people who identify as bisexual arises from the essentialist construction of identity, that is, we are gay, and therefore we are not heterosexual. This construction is recognised to have alot of political power which queer theory doesnt have, because it operates under the logic of identity around which our society is based, that is it is easier to fight for rights for a group that is defined by their exclusive attraction to members of the same sex, than it is to fight to rights for what then comes down to an activity that anybody may wish to engage in at any given time.

Bisexuality also affects the born gay argument, which is seen as being HUGELY significant for gay rights, again because it implies that its not a choice and therefore we shouldnt be discriminated against. Bisexuality, or arguing that everybody's sexuality is fluid implies that having sex/being in a relationship/being attracted to a member of the same sex is a choice, and therefore we shouldnt be granted rights to protect that choice.

So essentially this theory comes down to the fact that bisexuality is seen as a cop out under the essentialist construction, which compromises the political power of the gay rights movement and therefore threatens gay people. That tends to be the reason that people tend to be very unwilling to say i chose to be gay, or that im not sure i was born gay.

I personally think Queer Theory has alot going for it, I have no problem with bisexuality etc. but I do see that there is potentially a huge political danger for the gay rights movement if the consensus were to shift away from the essentialist construction in the political forum at this point in time.

Sorry for the length, like I said, just one theory.

 

[tonyboy]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

I have met one and he poured his heart to me about being gay but not 100% and every now and then he is attracted to women but most gay men refuse to believe that and are no help whatsoever. I want to know why too?? because loads of gay men believe there are straight men who are a little bi. We had a huge discussion tonight and it really is sad that homosexual men are the worst offenders when it comes to being a little attracted to some women. Is it pure jealousy?

I've thought about bi/gay guys alot too man.
I don't think it's jealousy. I think that often gay guys figure that a bi guy is just a gay trying to be straight.
I don't agree with that.
I've been on jub long enough to know that there are truly guys that find attactions with both boys and girls.... or men and women.

I feel a bit sorry for the true bi guys in that they can be torn between their attraction to men and women.
And I feel sorry as well for the gay guy that meets a bi guy.... what I've seen happen is that often the bi guy gets with the gay guy and they make love and can seem perfectly happy then the bi guy goes and figures he wants to be with a woman.
I've seen that happen time and time again (well read about it on jub).
I cannot lay the blame on the bi guy. That is just who he is, he cannot help being attracted to women and men just as a straigh guy cannot be helped being attracted to women.
Sexuality is a tough thing to deal with sometimes.
I think that gay guys often are too hard on the truely bi guys. Sometimes it's cause they figure that no one is truely bisexual. Yet, I know that many people are just that.
But the bi guy often does get get with a gay guy and then figure he needs to move toward a girl. That is tough for anyone to handle.... I mean when you have a b/f and he figures he needs to move on is one thing.... but when he says he needs to move on toward a woman, well that is tough for a gay guy to figure out.
Sort of like a woman that has had a husband that tells her he wants to get a relationship with a guy.
I'm just glad for my own part that I'm not bisexual. I know that I like guys.
I'm sorry for your buddy. It's hard being gay in this world but I think it may be tougher being a true bisexual.
He will have to eventuallyl figure it out for himself. He may find himself with a girl sometime and drop her to be with a guy.... and vice versa.
For me, I'd never date a bi guy, not that they are not great and fine... it's just too iffy as to what would happen.
I hope your buddy will be fine. Seems to me that he has a great friend in you.
I hope you will be there for him in the future. You seem to be a very good person man.

 

[Twistedup]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

i don't know the answer to your question, but;

bisexuals definitely exist. if stone sober, i'm pretty much totally gay...that meaning that i would never fantasize about having sex with a woman, and vaginas creep me out and are kinda gross.

but, when i get real drunk, i kind of lose the idea of my own sexuality, and what i find attractive. suddenly what really turns me on is the idea of someone else getting off, albeit male or female. now, it is way easier to give a female a crazy orgasm than it is a male...or maybe they just seem to enjoy it more...i don't know. either way, as soon as i get real drunk, my favorite thing to do, sexually, is cunnilingus, because i really enjoy getting someone else off, and girls really like to show their appreciation. then i sober up and i'm like..."gross, i ate pussy again..." it will happen again, though. it always does.

well i'm pretty sure that makes me bisexual, and a bunch of gay theories be damned.

bluephoenix laid out some good points though...

 

[AngelFromAbove]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

I was doing some reading for a pol sci essay on identity the other week, I'm not saying this is the only reason, or a justifiable reason, or my own feelings, its just one theory I came across.

The basic background:
- Identity is a bunch of characteristics or differences which are recognised as different and have social significance attached too them.
- Gay and Lesbian people (just limiting it to these groups atm, there are more I know) have traditionally had a negative identity imposed upon them by the dominant group (heterosexuals/men),
- Liberation seeks to reform the 'gay' identity into something without the negative connotations previously attached to it, gaining equality, and de-internalising oppression,

2 main forms of identity theory are 1) Essentialism (Gay/Lesbian) which really seeks to redefine a categorised identity into an equally categorised but self imposed identity, 2) Constructivism (in our case dominated by what is known as Queer Theory) which seeks to acknowledge a spectrum and fluidity of identity.

I suspect, and the readings I did agree, that the gay bias (not necessarily universal) against people who identify as bisexual arises from the essentialist construction of identity, that is, we are gay, and therefore we are not heterosexual. This construction is recognised to have alot of political power which queer theory doesnt have, because it operates under the logic of identity around which our society is based, that is it is easier to fight for rights for a group that is defined by their exclusive attraction to members of the same sex, than it is to fight to rights for what then comes down to an activity that anybody may wish to engage in at any given time.

Bisexuality also affects the born gay argument, which is seen as being HUGELY significant for gay rights, again because it implies that its not a choice and therefore we shouldnt be discriminated against. Bisexuality, or arguing that everybody's sexuality is fluid implies that having sex/being in a relationship/being attracted to a member of the same sex is a choice, and therefore we shouldnt be granted rights to protect that choice.

So essentially this theory comes down to the fact that bisexuality is seen as a cop out under the essentialist construction, which compromises the political power of the gay rights movement and therefore threatens gay people. That tends to be the reason that people tend to be very unwilling to say i chose to be gay, or that im not sure i was born gay.

I personally think Queer Theory has alot going for it, I have no problem with bisexuality etc. but I do see that there is potentially a huge political danger for the gay rights movement if the consensus were to shift away from the essentialist construction in the political forum at this point in time.

Sorry for the length, like I said, just one theory.

I totally agree with the Queer Theory notion. Of course, there are also those people who simply cannot grasp anything other than the binary terms into which they have been conditioned such as Black and White, Gay and Straight, Male and Female, Conservative and Liberal, etc.

 

[FabFairy]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

Sex is an ever evolving journey. What we are as teens can be modified many time through life as we grow and our minds broaden. I think we experience varied feelings as we move through life. I also fail to understand that if you can be gay or straight then why do we seems to have such a problem with someone being Bi.

Perhaps there is a percentage of Bi's who just sit on the fence but I doubt that would be the answer for most. I have 3 bi friends that I see on a very regular basis. The sex is fab-u-lous and we enjoy ourselves.

Maybe people are just scared or jealous of others enjoying all that life has to offer I think.

 

[G-Lexington]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

I don't think it's jealousy, really. I think the main factor is an inability to think outside themselves.

I don't like chocolate. I don't hate it or anything, but I don't think it's the food of the gods. When I tell people this, it's like telling them I don't like sex. They don't GET it. They say "really?" about five times in a row, followed by "How can you not like chocolate?" To them, the love of chocolate is such a given that they can't even fathom anyone NOT liking it. Something must be really really fucked up in my head for me to not like chocolate.

Similarly, gay guys like guys in a sexual manner. So they harbor this feeling that ALL guys must like guys in a sexual manner, even thought the "straight" tage sort of precludes that. They feel these straight guys must be in denial or something, and if they just gave it a try like THEY did, they'd realize how great it is, and they'd want to do it all the time.

Also, these same gay guys don't like having sex with women. So when confronted with a bisexual, they can't fathom that. These bi guys obviously HAVE admitted they like sex with guys, but they haven't turned their back on women (the way THEY have). Thus, there must be something wrong with them - they're in denial, they're "scared to commit", whatever.

Lex

 

[Caeth]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

my theory is, "everyone's a little fucked up in their own way"

 

[KaraBulut]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

Because too many gay men use "bisexual" as the dress rehearsal on their way to "gay".

 

[natalietruman]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

not nowadays though, and it effects geniuine bisexuals and it is harder to be bisexual. He also believes alot of gay men are not 100% gay either and spend too many years coming out and therefore would never admit any attraction to the oppposite sex.

 

[Rex]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

The guy I hook up with on a regular occasion is bisexual.

He comes off as completely straight and has a girlfriend, but they have an up and down relationship so he calls me up every now and then. We've talked about sexuality before and he had a problem admitting he's bi at first but he's told me he enjoys the sex with men more but has no emotional attachment with men. He's willing to do anything when we mess around except for kissing.

My problem is, if he says he enjoys the sex with men more, is he really just in a a phase? I'm not saying I think he's gay, he probably isn't. But I know he isn't 100% content that he messes around with guys. It kind of was hard for him to accept actually. Is he just limiting himself because he's afraid of turning gay, so he draws the line at kissing or any kind of guy/guy relationship?

 

[natalietruman]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

He sounds bisexual to me.

 

[JohnBuckLINY]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

It's not just gay guys who refuse to believe in bisexuality. A couple years back, an article in the New York Times shook up quite a hornet's nest in the bi community. Straight, Gay or Lying?

...A new study casts doubt on whether true bisexuality exists, at least in men.

The study, by a team of psychologists in Chicago and Toronto, lends support to those who have long been skeptical that bisexuality is a distinct and stable sexual orientation.

People who claim bisexuality, according to these critics, are usually homosexual, but are ambivalent about their homosexuality or simply closeted...

 

[hummer7979]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

People can be gay, straight, or bisexual. But relationships (at least between two people) can only be gay or straight by definition. So it really depends on how you define it. The kind of people we're sexually attracted to might not be a choice, but what is a choice is whom we pursue and what sort of relationships we start. It's wholly possible that a bisexual person be outwardly gay or straight and just ignore other desires for whatever reason. After all, even as gay or straight people, we don't pursue every sexual attraction that we encounter.

It's not just gay guys who refuse to believe in bisexuality. A couple years back, an article in the New York Times shook up quite a hornet's nest in the bi community. Straight, Gay or Lying?

It may be the case that many self-identified bisexuals are in fact gay. However, I think its important to keep in mind that just because some people who self-identify as bisexual are either confused or lying doesn't mean that bisexuality itself does not exist. It may be that lying or confused gay men outnumber true bisexuals, which could explain the experimental results.

 

[G-Lexington]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

>>>Is he just limiting himself because he's afraid of turning gay, so he draws the line at kissing or any kind of guy/guy relationship?

I don't know if he's afraid of "turning" gay, but he may be afraid of going whole-hog into the whole sex-with-men thing. This situation - a bisexual who won't kiss the same gender - isn't that uncommon, and it may be that if they don't kiss, they can convince themselves that "it's just sex" - that there's no emotional attachment taking place, just two horny guys getting off, no big deal.

Lex

 

[RukkuS]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

what drives me nuts is when gay guys say "im sorry, but if you suck dick, you're gay"

when it's completely okay for girls to do whatever they girls and still be considered straight as hell.

 

[relaxin13]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

Not all gay men refuse to believe there are bi men. I think of sexuality kind of like a number line, where 'gay' is at one end, 'bi' is in the middle, and 'straight' is at the other end. Everyone falls somewhere on this line, either essentially completely straight, completely gay, bi leaning in one direction or completely bi.

 

[probeteam1]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

It's not jealousy, it's ... not quite politics, but related.
It's about gay pride, about allegiances, insecurity, and a large dose of arrogance.

Lots of gay men use the label f "bisexual" to test the waters before coming out, a way to "peek out of the closet." I don't really understand this personally, as I never had any illusions that I'd be treated any better as a bisexual than as a gay man, and most gay men I've asked who did this pretty much admitted that it didn't work out very well. I've heard (or read) some say it's more about coming out to yourself - that a bisexual label can be a way to "try on" gay life without readjusting your own identity too much (without having to let go of the dream of a wife and kids and a dog, for example).

Lots of gay men assume that if it's that way for them then it must be that way for everyone. And to be fair their experiences do reinforce the attitude, as more bisexual men eventually identify as gay for one reason or another. Not only do they think they're doing a bi guy a favor by pressuring him to identify as gay (just as they think they're doing closet cases a favor by trying to make them come out), sometimes the continued refusal can be offensive - it's a sign of internalized homophobia that these guys can fit all of these gay qualifications and still call themselves something other than gay. So they challenge it like any other incidence of homophobia.

Even when this is not the case, it's a matter of averages. I know a gay guy who refers to several people as "still bisexual" on the assumption that eventually they'll be gay - not because he doesn't believe in the existence of bisexual men, but because his experience has taught him that these guys probably aren't among them. He admits that he could be wrong, but insists that the numbers are on his side.

But there are other elements. There's allegiance. If bisexual men are going to reap the benefits of being gay (i.e. sex with men) then they should accept the burdens as well (no sex with women, a stigmatized identity). They see bisexual men as trying to "have their cake and eat it too." Others seem to feel that even if bisexuality exists, that either a) they should assume a gay identity anyway, or b) decent gay folks shouldn't associate with them.

Then there's the matter of insecurity. Lots of people won't date bisexuals out of fear of infidelity, or disgust with their presumed sexual practices. I know at least one woman who said she'd never date a bi guy because she didn't want "some gay guy's sloppy seconds." The opposite could be true in reverse - certainly some lesbians seem disgusted by the idea that their partner ever touched a man; I don't know ho often that applies to gay men, however, as some straight guys seem to have less of a problem with their girlfriends seeing women.

There seems to be a persistent fear that a bisexual person will leave a gay partner for the more socially-validated heterosexual relationship. Or because a partner of the opposite sex fulfills some need that a member of the same sex does not. But if they can get their bisexual partners to repudiate that opposite-sex desire, they can sleep a little better at night, I guess.

Then there's binary thinking: often, our outlook on the world is divided into mutually-exclusive opposed polarities: up/down, black/white, male/female, democrat/republican, good/evil, pepsi/coke, boxers/briefs, gay/straight, and so on. These are your options, and I will hear none of your blasphemies about sideways, gray, intersexed, independent, moral ambiguity, R.C. cola, boxer-briefs or "commando", bisexual, or whatever other silly "third options" you've devised. If you're not black, then you're white. If you're not with us, you're against us. And if you're not straight, then obviously you're gay.


All of this is of course just a guess, as I don't refuse to acknowledge bisexuality. I love bisexuality - if I could be bisexual instead of gay, I would (after all, why discriminate by sex?). I love bisexual people - some of my best friends are bisexual women, and if it weren't for bi guys, I'd probably still be a virgin.

 

[Twistedup]

Re: Why do gay men refuse to believe there are bi

^----^-----^------^...thank you.