“Ignorance is not an excuse.”

[TickTockMan]

Then what is?


I keep seeing this on issues I keep up on. If one doesn’t know something is illegal or “wrong” how are they to know they shouldn’t or can not do it?

 

[TickTockMan]

^That doesn't answer the scope of the question though. That goes without saying. I'm talking about the other instances.

 

[gsdx]

It simply means that being ignorant of the laws still make you responsible when you break them. (In other words, you can't use ignorance of the laws as an excuse for not paying the consequences.)

 

[FPNY]

This is an interesting topic to me, I've always been fascinated with the excuses people come up with for their behavior. In my mind people know the difference between what is right and what is wrong. Anyone with a conscience knows it's not right to kick kittens for example. There shouldn't have to be a law banning kitten kicking, but there is one, because the first kitten kicker who got nabbed said nobody told me not to kick kittens, so I thought it was ok. The fact that kitten kicking is not socially acceptable is well publicized and then everyone knows not to kick the kittys.
Since it is well publicized and everyone should know not to kick the cats claiming ignorance becomes no excuse.

 

[Kennylingus]

Ignorance can actually be an excuse, or at least a valid legal defense in some situations. I don't know too much about it, but there are a fair number of crimes that are only crimes if there was intent behind it.

I'm not sure how successful it usually is, but that last time I was arrested, the DA knew he'd never be able to prove intent so he offered me a $250 fine and that's it, when I could have gone to jail for a fair bit.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Then what is?


I keep seeing this on issues I keep up on. If one doesn’t know something is illegal or “wrong” how are they to know they shouldn’t or can not do it?

Ignorance

this word a most interestin many lingos of so many so call cultures fa long a time < for shameeeeeee!

da pyramid is pointy

cue anime ' pointy finger at you '

this post on internet but da book openin on ya alls as lot folk wake up ta ya games ( pointy finger at you )

 

[TickTockMan]

It simply means that being ignorant of the laws still make you responsible when you break them. (In other words, you can't use ignorance of the laws as an excuse for not paying the consequences.)

I know what it means. It was the reason for the OP.

Since it is well publicized and everyone should know not to kick the cats claiming ignorance becomes no excuse.

Again though that falls within something that goes without saying.

If you break the law and you don’t know you are doing or have did it why is ignorance not an excuse?



I am active in trying to smarten up most of the US sex laws on the books. One of the current stories has an 18 year old going to prison and having to register as a sex offender for life when he gets out because he went to a 18+ club, met a girl inside then had a one night stand with her. Some time down the road the guy gets arrested because it turns out is was only 16 and the guy doesn’t live in a state with a grace period.


How is ignorance not an excuse in situations like these? Would anyone inside ask to see someone’s ID while inside a club like that? Even if the guy did she had a fake ID to get in in the first place.

There are many stories where minors do this kind of thing, but get in no trouble because many people want to think “minors are nonsexual” so it has to be the person 18+ fault.


I’m also seeing a lot more cases dealing with minors having sex with one another, then both being arrested for having sex with a minor. They are considered offenders and victims.


In the state of Wisconsin it was just ruled that sex education teachers can be arrested for teaching sex education; aka attributing to the delinquency of a minor. Any sex education teacher that does their job and doesn’t know about this in Wisconsin could get sent to court for doing their job and lose everything.


In all of these cases how is ignorance not an excuse?

 

[Fucker29]

Human beings are flawed, we ain't perfect...nor should we be. It's our flaws that keep us questioning ourselves, our behaviors, motives, thoughts, feelings...everything that makes us who we are.

We have to keep in mind we're reactive, impulsive beings. Sure we're also rational and logical but that's just a fragment of who we are. Sometimes we can't control our impulses, our reactions...no matter how many laws you create.

I don't really like the way the expression "excuse" is used. People usually tend to mistake excusing someone's behavior for trying to understand that same behavior.

 

[Fucker29]

I know what it means. It was the reason for the OP.





Again though that falls within something that goes without saying.

If you break the law and you don’t know you are doing or have did it why is ignorance not an excuse?



I am active in trying to smarten up most of the US sex laws on the books. One of the current stories has an 18 year old going to prison and having to register as a sex offender for life when he gets out because he went to a 18+ club, met a girl inside then had a one night stand with her. Some time down the road the guy gets arrested because it turns out is was only 16 and the guy doesn’t live in a state with a grace period.


How is ignorance not an excuse in situations like these? Would anyone inside ask to see someone’s ID while inside a club like that? Even if the guy did she had a fake ID to get in in the first place.

There are many stories where minors do this kind of thing, but get in no trouble because many people want to think “minors are nonsexual” so it has to be the person 18+ fault.


I’m also seeing a lot more cases dealing with minors having sex with one another, then both being arrested for having sex with a minor. They are considered offenders and victims.


In the state of Wisconsin it was just ruled that sex education teachers can be arrested for teaching sex education; aka attributing to the delinquency of a minor. Any sex education teacher that does their job and doesn’t know about this in Wisconsin could get sent to court for doing their job and lose everything.


In all of these cases how is ignorance not an excuse?

The law is full of double standards. That sex education teacher thing is just...laughable. It's pathetic!

A lof of people still seem to have that "kids under 18yo are pure" view.

 

[TickTockMan]

Ignorance can actually be an excuse, or at least a valid legal defense in some situations. I don't know too much about it, but there are a fair number of crimes that are only crimes if there was intent behind it.

In the cases I have seen it doesn't matter.


It makes me sad that we are creating a generation of sex offenders and lumping them in with serial rapists and other true offenders. In most cases, because of state laws, for life. Most states once you go on the list you can’t come off even if you are proved innocent later on. Also most lists are artificially high because people that have died don’t come off right away because of red tape. These stats are then used to scare people, which in turn helps get more funding for more dumb ass things.

 

[gsdx]

If you break the law and you don’t know you are doing or have did it why is ignorance not an excuse?

That was my point. It is an excuse, but not necessarily one that will get you out of suffering the consequences.

 

[kevbo]

Ignorance isn't an excuse because ANYONE can claim ignorance. If you have proof of your ignorance, it's a different story. Then you just need a good lawyer.

 

[Kennylingus]

Ignorance isn't an excuse because ANYONE can claim ignorance. If you have proof of your ignorance, it's a different story. Then you just need a good lawyer.

In my case I didn't have to prove anything, it was on prosecution to prove that I had intent.

I had a female friend that there was a back an forth between us where we'd give each other slaps on the ass and so on. I ended up getting into a fight with the guy she was boning so she went to the cops and said I molested her and tried to force myself on her. She even had her fuck-buddy be a witness for her. All I did was go to the public defender and tell her the situation and that I was gay and when we went to court I was offered a deal where I'd pay $250 and that'd be the end of it. I was charged with a sex crime so it was some serious shit. The PD told me that if I wanted to fight it I could probably win because there's no way the DA could prove intent on my part, but it was worth $250 for me to just be done with it.

 

[Nomenclature]

Wow, i'm sorry that happened to you Kenny. Even if you're found innocent, that still looks really bad on your record; all people pay attention to is "accused of. . .".




Thynight: Is this thread about sex crimes in particular?

 

[01solara]

I know what it means. It was the reason for the OP.





Again though that falls within something that goes without saying.

If you break the law and you don’t know you are doing or have did it why is ignorance not an excuse?



I am active in trying to smarten up most of the US sex laws on the books. One of the current stories has an 18 year old going to prison and having to register as a sex offender for life when he gets out because he went to a 18+ club, met a girl inside then had a one night stand with her. Some time down the road the guy gets arrested because it turns out is was only 16 and the guy doesn’t live in a state with a grace period.

This is a case where he was the victim of fraud. She should have been prosecuted instead of him. It is very difficult to tell who is and isn't legal around that age. I honestly don't know how you could ever be sure. The law needs to be revised. There was a time when it was easier to figure out someones age. That time has passed. I know you have to draw a line somewhere. The whole sex offender thing needs to be rethought as well. Most of the laws were written with good intentions but they are far too black and white.

Sex and relationships have a lot of grey and in most situations it is one persons word against the other. I'm a pretty strong law and order guy but this situation is far too complex to be solved by the legal system. How many guys are in jail because she got pissed and said he forced himself on her when he didn't and that was the best way to get even with him for his having cheated or otherwise having done something to piss her off. Men are more often than not assumed to be guilty and women are more often than not assumed to be innocent. I am not sure what the answer is but what we have now isn't working.

How is ignorance not an excuse in situations like these? Would anyone inside ask to see someone’s ID while inside a club like that? Even if the guy did she had a fake ID to get in in the first place.

It should be more than an excuse it should be a valid legal defense. He wasn't ignorant he was deceived and so long as he believed what he was being told he should not be punished in any way. She should be placed in a juvenile detention center until she has reached legal adulthood for the protection of both her and any potential victims.

There are many stories where minors do this kind of thing, but get in no trouble because many people want to think “minors are nonsexual” so it has to be the person 18+ fault.

Children are sexualized at a very young age now. There are still some nonsexual teenagers around but they are the exception to the norm. You can blame it on the media or the parents or whomever you want but kids are sexual at far younger ages than ever before. Childhood and innocence have become distant strangers for the most part.


I’m also seeing a lot more cases dealing with minors having sex with one another, then both being arrested for having sex with a minor. They are considered offenders and victims.


In the state of Wisconsin it was just ruled that sex education teachers can be arrested for teaching sex education; aka attributing to the delinquency of a minor. Any sex education teacher that does their job and doesn’t know about this in Wisconsin could get sent to court for doing their job and lose everything.


In all of these cases how is ignorance not an excuse?

This is a tough question. It reminds me of the overzealous prosecutors from the late 80's that obtained convictions for abuse against many innocent day care providers. The line was that children don't lie about these things. It turns out they do and women also lie about whether or not they gave consent.

Not all women lie but enough do to create serious problems for people that did nothing wrong. It is time to rethink the way this is handled. It is very difficult to know who's telling the truth. People that have really been forced into sex deserve to have justice but I honestly don't know of a good way to tell who's a legitimate victim. No easy answers so this will remain a problem for a very long time.

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

It depends on the circumstances and the severity of what law is being broken. In the USA.

That is why there is a human element to facing your accuser and can defend yourself in court before humans and a jury of your peers.

A friend and I were were sitting in the woods building a campfire late one night, this was in my friends upscale suburban neighborhood where homes are spread out amongst patches of woods.
It was late fall and the leaves were off the trees so the campfire could be seen in the nearby homes. We were drinking beers and just hanging out.
Not to long after the fire was blazing a cop showed up and arrested us both for trespassing in a county park after dark and drinking. My friend was a minor, I wasn't.

In court my friend pleaded guilty and was sentenced as such for a minor.

My case was in adult court where I pleaded not guilty. Before the Judge that I explained I was visiting my friend and did not know the land we were on was a County park. I thought it was common property owned by the homeowners in the subdivision making it private property or I wouldn't have been there. As there were no county park signs or marked access to a county park. I was ignorant to the fact.
The judge said "there is reasonable doubt" and dismissed my case with a non guilty verdict.
It gave me great pleasure leaving the courtroom with the arresting police officer behind me who I could tell was pissed things didn't go as he was sure they would.

My friend's parents said he wasn't allowed to ever officially hang out with me again after that incident

..this is one example even though a minor it illustrates the point that it can and does happen. I have others and know of plenty as well.

 

[Nomenclature]

I've heard about men who were sentenced to prison for rape. They spent 16 years or longer in there before "new DNA evidence" finally proved that they were innocent.


Imagine being beaten, raped, possibly infected with HIV, harassed AND charged as a sex offender when you're completely innocent. That would be Hell on Earth.

 

[TickTockMan]

I've heard about men who were sentenced to prison for rape. They spent 16 years or longer in there before "new DNA evidence" finally proved that they were innocent.

That has happened alot lately. It just happened in Washington state with help from The Innocence Projecta few weeks ago. My head is fuzzy, but I want to say they were in there around 20 years. DNA evidence showed when looked at again that the DNA wasn't even close to being the same as found on the women. The DA and the woman still say the two black guys that got put away did it, even though the DNA evidence and the judge say clearly it couldn't be.


As luck would have it though they live in a state where sex offenders can come off the list if shown innocent. Most people don't get that "lucky."

My state is trying to "toughen up" our sex laws in the next election. I hope the people of Oregon are smart enough to realize what the "back of the law" says. The front is wrote in such a way I doubt many are going to see what the entire thing can and probably will do.

 

[TickTockMan]

Thynight: Is this thread about sex crimes in particular?

Yes, but not really. Taboos of sex is just a heavy interest to me. My research on court cases is what made me get to the point of making the thread, but it's open to any time people say it when the issue at hand is more gray than black or white.

 

[Kennylingus]

Wow, i'm sorry that happened to you Kenny. Even if you're found innocent, that still looks really bad on your record; all people pay attention to is "accused of. . .".

Yeah, it got really hairy for a while. I actually had to move. It's a really small town, everyone knows each other and everyone knows that I'm a homo, but it's like as soon as someone throws out the words sex crime, logic doesn't mean jack.