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10 questions for intelligent Christians

Kulindahr

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Using my critical thinking skills, and sound information, I make this assessment of his questions:

Question 1: intriguing
Question 2: fallacious
Question 3: fallacious
Question 4: he's lying about the Bible; fallacious
Question 5: fallacious
Question 6: shallow and fallacious
Question 7: fallacious
Question 8: false premise
Question 9: false premise
Question 10: false premise

On a lot of it he's full of shit. Where he skips by really fast with nothing more than stating the question, I think he knows that.

These may be questions for intelligent Christians, but intelligent Christians will know that for the most part, they're not intelligent questions, mostly because the guy has failed to do his homework.

So sad.
 
^ Your response merely proves the video's point, that Christians tend to rely on unconvincing rationalizations and delusion to justify their beliefs.

Though one may, or may not, disagree with its answers, the questions aren't unintelligent and, of course, we get your usual faith-motivated position that, despite appearances, it's false to assert that the Bible condones slavery. Yeah, we know it worked out ok in the end.

I don't agree with the sanctimonious certainty of your response. But nor do I agree with the video.

It's a one dimensional, unimaginative and self-entitled take on Christianity. There are many things in the universe that are unknown and unexplained to the human mind. It doesn't mean that they don't exist or that some truth about them isn't encapsulated in Christian (and other religious) thinking.
 

...Christians tend to rely on unconvincing rationalizations and delusion to justify their beliefs. ...

This Christian (me Yuki) relies on my faith............just a thought............
 
This fellow's piece rides of the assumption that all who share the Christian philosophy are viewing God, the Bible, and creation in the exact same manner. If he had put in any decent amount of time researching the philosophies he is seeking so 'logically' to disprove, he would realize that adopting the teachings of Christ has never tethered that believer to a certain total understanding of what is presented therein.

I will seek to answer these questions from my personal understanding of Christianity.

1. God is not a genie, it does not move its hand at any request. Miraculous occurrences do take place, however they are usually enacted at the will of God itself and only to the most dire instances are they granted. Divine inspirations do exist, and lesser prayers may be entertained, but God has long since executed his primary efforts. Certain remnants of these miraculous occurrences are readily available for public viewing: The Universe, the process of evolution, and life itself are a few.

2. It is our job to care for our own brothers and sisters, God is not a nanny. God has blessed our species with the required traits to change our world for the better, and also for the worse. It is that free will that is reflected in our deeds. There are also many prosperous people on this planet who have taken God's gifts and exercised them as they were intended. As far as the 'raise' comment, again, God is not a genie. Also, he assumes all view God as an all-loving entity.

3. God is vengeful, wrathful and jealous, it says so itself. It also makes mistakes. We were made in God's image, all that humanity is capable of, God is capable in magnitude. Also, much of his 'word' was nothing more than fabricated or misconstrued bullshit used to further human agendas.

4. The Bible was written thousands of years ago to an audience of laymen who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. This is a process called 'storytelling' and 'mythos.' If described in a such a fantastical manner, the primitive mind can entertain such thoughts. For example, what is obviously a meteorite in the Bible is described as a 'mountain of fire.' Imagine if it were written, in equivalency to the laymen, that a 'meteorite would strike the Earth with the power of so and so megatons of TNT.' Frankly, that wouldn't make a lick of sense. However, meteorites are big chunks of flaming rock. Big chunk of rock, mountain.. you know?

This fellow is assuming that all view the Bible in a literalistic manner. Why do adults write seemingly nonsensical stories for children to explain the complications of the adult world to one so small? Because they cannot understand at the time. We are God's children after all, and now we are not as young as we were then. God is still having his creation recorded, it is through a process we now call 'science.'

5. Men are proponents of slavery, men also contort the wisdom they are given for their own pursuit of power, and men penned the Bible. This has no actual foothold in the Christian philosophy and is moot.

6. Again, God is not a nanny. We are but a cog in his creation, a very shiny one, but we are not entitled to a life free of the burdens of any other thing is this world. It makes perfect sense, and requires no 'exotic excuse.' Bad things happen to good people because they just do. No where did Jesus state that we get a magical 'No Bad Days' sticker that protects us from all ill fortune.

7. Jesus' miracles? Evidence? I am at a loss how you could possibly formulate evidence beyond hearsay. It is not exactly like he sneezed out a layer of pixie dust that would appear in the fossil record that had a different color based on the sort of miracle performed, then left a legend to their correlations etched in diamond. Not a particularly well formulated question, he could have done better. The word of the few historians at the time are all that we have, and ever will base any historical references to the factual Jesus on.

8. I am pretty sure the Queen of England could be at my doorstep by the time I wake up tomorrow, but I doubt she would oblige even if I managed to contact her directly. He does not appear, because there is no reason to do so. Also, he assumes the fact that all people have not had unusual encounters with the unexplained as far as the theoretical existence of 'angels' and all that like.

9. This question actually astounded me. To quote a line from The Boondock Saints "Symbolism... the word you are looking for is symbolism."

10. Free will. Marriage is a social contract with religions flavor and connotation, it is not a testament to the existence of God. For the last time: God is not a nanny, nor is he a marriage counselor. It is up to us to find our own mates, just like any other animal on this planet. This fellow also assumes that monogamy is directly enforced by God, which, using the rest of the animal kingdom as a litmus, it is not.

I have thought long and hard about my faith, and I can still most distinctly state that I believe the validity of Christ, and that my certainty of the existence of the Creator has only grown stronger as my knowledge of this world expands. What I have formulated for myself are not 'exotic excuses,' but a perfectly logical viewpoint that is in no way compromised as is the targets of this fellow's video. Those of which hold beliefs that, naturally, are indeed rather delusional.

Forgive any obvious functional stumbles, this was written very early.
 
Originally Posted by Spensed
...Christians tend to rely on unconvincing rationalizations and delusion to justify their beliefs. ...

This Christian (me Yuki) relies on my faith............just a thought............This Christian (me Yuki) relies on my faith............just a thought............

I'm not saying I agree with him and certainly not with respect to all Christians, but that's the point of the video, that faith equates to unconvincing rationalizations and delusion.
 
^ Your response merely proves the video's point, that Christians tend to rely on unconvincing rationalizations and delusion to justify their beliefs.

Though one may, or may not, disagree with its answers, the questions aren't unintelligent and, of course, we get your usual faith-motivated position that, despite appearances, it's false to assert that the Bible condones slavery. Yeah, we know it worked out ok in the end.

I don't agree with the sanctimonious certainty of your response. But nor do I agree with the video.

It's a one dimensional, unimaginative and self-entitled take on Christianity. There are many things in the universe that are unknown and unexplained to the human mind. It doesn't mean that they don't exist or that some truth about them isn't encapsulated in Christian (and other religious) thinking.

Any question based on ignorance or fallacy is unintelligent. That covers most of his items.

So what my response proves is that informed people who can recognize fallacies know when to reject garbage. That's proven by the fact that I do acknowledge the one question where he scores.

Your response to mine just demonstrates once again that you're on the same intellectual level as Fred Phelps: unable to read more than surface meaning, unwilling to be educated, stuck in your narrow little worldview that dismisses the need to think by yelling "Faith based!"

The man lies about what the Bible says, and claims it's a challenge to the Bible. He engages in fallacious reasoning, and claims it's a challenge to the Bible. If you have even a smattering of awareness of logical fallacies, and even a little bit of education about the Bible, you can tell he's aiming this at people already full of their own prejudices and not interested in learning.

He caught you.
 


I'm not saying I agree with him and certainly not with respect to all Christians, but that's the point of the video, that faith equates to unconvincing rationalizations and delusion.

Sometimes I forget but I never doubt.............
................
 
This fellow's piece rides of the assumption that all who share the Christian philosophy are viewing God, the Bible, and creation in the exact same manner. If he had put in any decent amount of time researching the philosophies he is seeking so 'logically' to disprove, he would realize that adopting the teachings of Christ has never tethered that believer to a certain total understanding of what is presented therein.

His real assumption is that all who "share the Christian philosophy are viewing God, the Bible, and creation" in his manner -- which makes all the questions based on a fallacy, even that rather potent first one.
He's also projecting his approach to dealing with difficult questions: get uncomfortable, rationalize, and stop thinking about it. That's what he's really doing by claiming that all Christians come up with the sort of irrational foolishness he coins at the end of various questions.

I will seek to answer these questions from my personal understanding of Christianity.
....

2. It is our job to care for our own brothers and sisters, God is not a nanny. God has blessed our species with the required traits to change our world for the better, and also for the worse. It is that free will that is reflected in our deeds. There are also many prosperous people on this planet who have taken God's gifts and exercised them as they were intended. As far as the 'raise' comment, again, God is not a genie. Also, he assumes all view God as an all-loving entity.

Here's a place where his basic fallacy becomes really pointed: he assumes that everyone who conceives of God as loving and caring does so with the same (shallow) ideas he himself does. His use of that phrase exposes more of his own shallowness than it reveals about Christians (even the numerous shallow ones).

You do a fair job of aiming at his fallacy here: he's imposing on God his own standard of "loving and caring" and not even looking at what the Bible has to say about why conditions are as they are. This is perhaps the most common fallacy with attacks on not just Christianity, but any system of thought: assuming that one's own worldview is right, and imposing it on a very shallow perception of something else, and then declaring a judgment. Doing that, the only thing you've judged is yourself.

3. God is vengeful, wrathful and jealous, it says so itself.

Here he shows that he ignores whatever data doesn't fit his preconceptions. He'd do better to skip the emotional appeal, and go right to this: if as it says, God is love, how can He be vengeful, wrathful, and jealous?
Of course he continues the fallacy of imposing his own definitions onto his subject matter -- kind of like the technicians who confused inches and centimeters and screwed up a very complicated spacecraft. If he's looking at a different system, he has to use its measures, and "innocent" is something with its own measures.
But then he gets just plain stupid and fails basic grammar: he chants "God demands that we...", like someone reading an ancient document and insisting the U.K. is trying to tax American tea.

4. The Bible was written thousands of years ago to an audience of laymen who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. This is a process called 'storytelling' and 'mythos.' If described in a such a fantastical manner, the primitive mind can entertain such thoughts. For example, what is obviously a meteorite in the Bible is described as a 'mountain of fire.' Imagine if it were written, in equivalency to the laymen, that a 'meteorite would strike the Earth with the power of so and so megatons of TNT.' Frankly, that wouldn't make a lick of sense. However, meteorites are big chunks of flaming rock. Big chunk of rock, mountain.. you know?

This fellow is assuming that all view the Bible in a literalistic manner. Why do adults write seemingly nonsensical stories for children to explain the complications of the adult world to one so small? Because they cannot understand at the time. We are God's children after all, and now we are not as young as we were then. God is still having his creation recorded, it is through a process we now call 'science.'

He also just plain lies; that it's a common lie doesn't make it less of one: the Bible does not say that God created the world 6,000 years ago (it doesn't really say He did it in "six days", either, but that gets a bit technical). The Bible gives not the least indication of how old the world is, and if the man had a decent education in what he's talking about, he'd know that. Then he switches to a less common lie, that the Bible says there was a "worldwide flood that covered Mt. Everest" -- that position is someone's spin, not the actual story.
He needs a course in communication, really -- if he was honest, he'd be saying, "These things are nonsense to me", and "It makes no sense to me".

5. Men are proponents of slavery, men also contort the wisdom they are given for their own pursuit of power, and men penned the Bible. This has no actual foothold in the Christian philosophy and is moot.

Quite so: God is not a proponent of slavery, and there's nothing in the Bible to support his proposition -- again, a lie. And he totally ignores the fact that the forces which brought an end to slavery in the Western world were Christians who'd grasped the implications of a couple of foundational truths and so moved to change an institution wrongly supported for centuries.

6. Again, God is not a nanny. We are but a cog in his creation, a very shiny one, but we are not entitled to a life free of the burdens of any other thing is this world. It makes perfect sense, and requires no 'exotic excuse.' Bad things happen to good people because they just do. No where did Jesus state that we get a magical 'No Bad Days' sticker that protects us from all ill fortune.

Right on target!
I think he knows he has no case here; he skips straight from his question to his little chant.

7. Jesus' miracles? Evidence? I am at a loss how you could possibly formulate evidence beyond hearsay. It is not exactly like he sneezed out a layer of pixie dust that would appear in the fossil record that had a different color based on the sort of miracle performed, then left a legend to their correlations etched in diamond. Not a particularly well formulated question, he could have done better. The word of the few historians at the time are all that we have, and ever will base any historical references to the factual Jesus on.

Yeah, I about spewed cocoa on this one. It's a joke, and a weak one, to anyone with the least reasoning ability. Just think of Jesus' miracles -- they involved people (all dead and gone, now; that's sort of common, after all), food (eaten, and 'passed out', as the KJV phrased it), weather (what's he looking for, a permanent water spout over the Sea of Galilee?)... nothing anyone would expect to endure (even those clay jars with the water turned to wine would have gone on the trash heap, oh, nineteen-and-a-half centuries past).

8. I am pretty sure the Queen of England could be at my doorstep by the time I wake up tomorrow, but I doubt she would oblige even if I managed to contact her directly. He does not appear, because there is no reason to do so. Also, he assumes the fact that all people have not had unusual encounters with the unexplained as far as the theoretical existence of 'angels' and all that like.

Good point.
I think his worldview includes the concept that God is a cheap trickster, or maybe a frolicsome spirit, who/which may be summoned on demand for whatever momentary whim may strike someone who possesses the right formula. Or maybe he expects Jesus to run a sort of lottery, and appear once a day to someone who asked? :confused:

9. This question actually astounded me. To quote a line from The Boondock Saints "Symbolism... the word you are looking for is symbolism."

LOL
It didn't astound me, because by this point it was pretty evident the guy is ignorant. Didn't he just finish saying that Jesus is timeless and all-powerful? Doesn't he have enough imagination to think that maybe Jesus is talking about real blood... but on a totally different order than the gloopy drippy read stuff we mere humans leak when pricked?
He strikes me here as the reverse of the shallow-minded "theologians" who switch from Jesus being man to being God, ignoring the other Nature, whenever convenient, except that he does it in reverse -- whichever way lets him put Jesus in a bad light.

10. Free will. Marriage is a social contract with religions flavor and connotation, it is not a testament to the existence of God. For the last time: God is not a nanny, nor is he a marriage counselor. It is up to us to find our own mates, just like any other animal on this planet. This fellow also assumes that monogamy is directly enforced by God, which, using the rest of the animal kingdom as a litmus, it is not.

Yeah, he acts like it's some magic ritual -- ignoring that fact that "let no man put asunder" plainly indicates that man can put it asunder! For his question to have any substance, he has to assume that God is a tyrant who appears on command and is subject to rituals requiring him to stifle the free will of people.

I have thought long and hard about my faith, and I can still most distinctly state that I believe the validity of Christ, and that my certainty of the existence of the Creator has only grown stronger as my knowledge of this world expands. What I have formulated for myself are not 'exotic excuses,' but a perfectly logical viewpoint that is in no way compromised as is the targets of this fellow's video. Those of which hold beliefs that, naturally, are indeed rather delusional.

Forgive any obvious functional stumbles, this was written very early.

Whenever it was written, it was written with pretty good thought and insight!
..|
 
Any question based on ignorance or fallacy is unintelligent. That covers most of his items.

So what my response proves is that informed people who can recognize fallacies know when to reject garbage. That's proven by the fact that I do acknowledge the one question where he scores.

Your response to mine just demonstrates once again that you're on the same intellectual level as Fred Phelps: unable to read more than surface meaning, unwilling to be educated, stuck in your narrow little worldview that dismisses the need to think by yelling "Faith based!"

The man lies about what the Bible says, and claims it's a challenge to the Bible. He engages in fallacious reasoning, and claims it's a challenge to the Bible. If you have even a smattering of awareness of logical fallacies, and even a little bit of education about the Bible, you can tell he's aiming this at people already full of their own prejudices and not interested in learning.

He caught you.

Unless one shares your preconceptions, your apologias and bad mouthing attitude don't make your opinions any the more convincing than what's on the video. LOL.
 
You'd make a good trial lawyer, Spence -- you never met a fact you couldn't dismiss with flair.

I know you don't like facts, but the fact is that the man lied, more than once, about what the Bible says. He's engaging in nothing but preconceptions -- and the comments I gave on his material are all things I knew BEFORE I became a Christian.

I've challenged you before to actually get some education before you speak, but you plainly don't think it's necessary. I'd ask you to show some facts, but you never have before. You brush them away with your logic-dismissing mantras about "faith" and "preconceptions".

I'd say you only came to this thread to attack me, and once again, your caricature of faith. Others show that they see through this guy, but you leave them alone.
 
You'd make a good trial lawyer, Spence -- you never met a fact you couldn't dismiss with flair.

I know you don't like facts, but the fact is that the man lied, more than once, about what the Bible says. He's engaging in nothing but preconceptions -- and the comments I gave on his material are all things I knew BEFORE I became a Christian.

I've challenged you before to actually get some education before you speak, but you plainly don't think it's necessary. I'd ask you to show some facts, but you never have before. You brush them away with your logic-dismissing mantras about "faith" and "preconceptions".

I'd say you only came to this thread to attack me, and once again, your caricature of faith. Others show that they see through this guy, but you leave them alone.

^ Not surprisingly you completely ignore the final paragraph to my original post on this thread.

I think I see more through the guy on the video than you. All you do, with your belligerence and dismissive assertions, is prove his otherwise dubious points.

We've gone over the old example of slavery before. Because you can't admit that the Bible, like any other primitive text, might be outdated or wrong in places, you take its multiple condonations or acceptance of slavery and see them, not as early mistakes of an evolving morality, but as right minded precursors to the post-Biblical abolition of slavery.

On your case, the Bible has no problem in condeming killing, but, with slavery, well we'll see you a few centuries down the line on that one.

Exactly the kind of convoluted and delusional explanation that the video complains of.

As for education, if I need any tips on myopia, I'll be sure to let you know. LOL.

 
From the outset, he assumes that all Christians believe God performs miracles today. I do not. Do I believe God exerts power today? Sure.

But answering a prayer to heal the sick doesn't constitute a miracle. In the early days of the Christian Church, miracles were apparent. The written Word wasn't complete and miracles were a way of lending weight to the words the apostles spoke. When the Word matured, as Paul said the Church "put away childish things." The message was complete.

But to those who saw the miracles then there was no doubt what they were: the blind seeing, the disfigured healed, people from far away lands hearing speakers speak in their native tongue. These were miracles. Attributing someone being recovering from an illness as a miracle is to cheapen what a miracle is. Is it a blessing? Absolutely, but it's not a miracle.

It's an interesting idea that God has given up performing miracles these days - but could do them if he felt like it.

So he only did miracles when no historian was there to document it and leave no credible historical record - I don't know of any respectable historian that has any evidence of the Miracles Jesus is said to have performed.

Maybe Miracles are a test of faith - they need to have no reliable evidence and to have happened a couple of thousand years ago in order to test the faith of true believers?

As God has retired from the miracle doing business - it is kind of hard to see what power he exerts today - maybe he intervened in the Holocaust to stop 8 million Jews being murdered rather than just the 6 million that were?

Or maybe for the 6 million killed - it was really good for their immortal souls and they thanked him for it - I guess they could have just not prayed hard enough - or maybe should have been Christian instead? - (this would certainly have done them some good)
 
We've gone over the old example of slavery before. Because you can't admit that the Bible, like any other primitive text, might be outdated or wrong in places, you take its multiple condonations or acceptance of slavery and see them, not as early mistakes of an evolving morality, but as right minded precursors to the post-Biblical abolition of slavery.

On your case, the Bible has no problem in condeming killing, but, with slavery, well we'll see you a few centuries down the line on that one.

I've got to quite admire the mental gymnastics of Christian arguments about God allowing bad things to happen to you for the good of your immortal soul.

So maybe he allowed 12 million people to be enslaved for the good of their immortal souls? - and the 3 million that died en-route were the lucky ones - getting to heaven quicker than the others?
 
Disclaimer: I am not Christian

The third question is valid. God does demand quite a bit of murder while, at the same time, demanding compassion and forgiveness. Why does God demand such things? God doesn't - the men who wrote the gospels that make up the modern Bible did. These demands were leftover oblations from primitive cultures that were mixed up in holy scripture and somehow were attributed to God.
 
^ It's not as simple as that.

Natural disasters and other bad things can, and do, happen irrespective of man's free will or responsibility.

Why remains ultimately a divine mystery, if one wants, or needs, to think in those terms.
 
The bible has been grossly mistranslated throughout centuries, and holding God accountable for the bible is like holding Barbara Walters accountable for what Elizabeth Hasslehack says, it just doesn't make sense. GOD DID NOT SAY IT'S OKAY TO ENSLAVE.

Leaving aside the historical falsehood in the "grossly mistranslated" fable, you're quite correct: God never said it's okay to enslave. At most, He declined to address a problem directly for a time, merely giving cautions as to handling an existing institution.

God doesn't allow bad things to happen, he gave us free will, some people use that free will to hate, commit murder, etc.. Stop blaming an entity for actions that are committed by HUMANS, that's a gross deflection of responsibility.

Sure He does!
If He gave us free will, that right there means He allows things to happen: if He doesn't allow us to do certain things we might decide, the whole thing is a charade. If we have free will, He allows us to do what we will to do -- it's part of the whole package.
Of course He doesn't get the blame for people doing them, because He didn't make the people do them, but He can't be let off the hook, so to speak, for allowing those things. What's being argued by some here is that since He's responsible for free will, He's responsible for what His critters do with that dubious blessing.
Of course the flip side is that when humans use their free will to do amazing and worthwhile things, He deserves credit there, too.

As Spense points out, that doesn't cover the things which happen that (as far as we can tell) have nothing to do with human free will. Interestingly, the ancient Hebrews had two different words for "evil" to cover this duality: the one for natural-disaster type evil, and the other for moral-agent evil.
For those who are interested, the Bible forthrightly acknowledges God's responsibility for the former.
 
Fundamentalism & literalism are based on the idea of applying the scientific method to the Bible. But there's a problem...The Bible was not written by God. And, spirituality does not often follow rational thought.
 
Does anyone find it extremely odd that this so called God came down and spoke to whomever during a time when mankind and civilization were...to be blunt...STUPID? I mean come on, how hard would it be to convince a group of ignorant and uneducated people to believe that I am the son of God and he spoke these words to me for you to follow. Jesus was not the only person during his time claiming to be the son of God, there were many according to historians.

Two thousand years later today, we have speakers filling huge stadiums where people walk up on stage to be healed...they can now see, walk, or whatever shit the speaker claims to heal. We are a far much advanced society and far more educated. So my question again is...if this type of brainwashing and huge following can happen today, just think how fucking easy it would have been 2000 years ago.

If a religion was started today out of scratch, how many people do you think will actually follow?

I have and will always continue to assert that as civilizations advance and grow, more and more people will doubt a God and question religion(s) in general.
 
Sure there were historians and just because they're not credible to you doesn't mean they're not credible. They're recorded in the Bible. A host of archeological data has been gleaned simply by using the scripture as a guide.

You keep equating "God exerting power" to "miracles." I don't equate the two at all. As for not performing them today, I outline why I believe "miracles" had a purpose. I believe God still exerts force today He just doesn't perform miracles.

I'd also interject that when miracles were recorded in the Bible, there was no doubt to those around them that a miracle was performed. They understood the difference between a sick man recovering from an illness and a blind man being made to see.

I agree with everything you have said here except where it comes to miracles. I believe that God performs miracles every day, but that we are simply sometimes inured to them.

I believe that birth is a miracle, and babies are born every day.

There was an interesting report I read on-line about four people receiving (kidney or liver, I cannot remember just now) transplants, when the doctors discovered that the relatives of the patients, while incompatible for them, were compatible with someone else. They manages to perform all four surgeries at once in one marathon session. If that was not a miracle, then I do not know what is.

People are cured from terminal diseases every day. These are miracles.

There are so many other examples I could give, but I believe I have made my point.
 
It's an interesting idea that God has given up performing miracles these days - but could do them if he felt like it.

Point of theology: a major point in the Bible is that God is not capricious, but faithful, that is, He doesn't do things "because He feels like it", but for very good reasons. That concept of faithfulness, of a dependable deity who doesn't act of whim, and of that deity as Creator, was a major impulse behind the development of science (even as the self-appointed Keepers of Truth opposed it).
 
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