A Liar Should Have a Good Memory

[Sondrith]

Alfie you obviously have never been in the military--that much is clear. Government records go missing all the time. The US Constitution is a protected historical document, not let say the flight log from 20+ years ago. Don’t you think that when the Constitution was drafted someone thought to preserve it for historical reasons? What reason would there be to preserve an at-the-time inconsequential reservist’s flight record (I assumed that you were smarter than that… Was I wrong?)? But yes anyone who has served in the military can attest they do go missing. Have you never hear the euphemism “It’s good enough for military work?” The government is notorious for shoddy record keeping, as you yourself have alluded to many times on this forum.
I ask you this; can you name every person you saw on Apr 20th 1970 at 3pm? I highly doubt it even if that person was running for President. Perhaps you can recall that you served with them and perhaps a few memories of the time but not who was where 20+years ago. Oh, wait, you have not answered my inquiry as to YOUR military history, so I doubt that there is any experience there… Once again, uninformed commentary of the uninitiated…
As far as his superiors refusing to give him an annual performance review means nothing. In reality, this doesn’t mean that they didn’t see him--only that they didn’t observe him in accordance with his duties. It is not like there was an unpopular war going on at the time, with all of the negative public opinion that they had to contend with, I am sure they were ALL ABOUT Lt. George W. Bush… As someone nearing the end of their obligation he probably didn’t care if they filled out the paperwork –or, ever flew a military aircraft again (That I don’t know, but as someone who has gone through honorable discharge from the military, I was in the original Desert Storm-- I know that is often the case). It’s your facts, or perhaps your presumptions, that are a little lacking in that department.
That being said your claim of “desertion” is based solely on the fact that he was grounded. By your definition--a pilot for whatever reason is grounded can be brought up on desertion charges. This is absolutely absurd. But for someone wanting (demanding, actually) facts, you seem to focus intensely on accusations and innuendo.

As far as Clinton…on March 20, 1968 he was classified 1-A, “Bill Clinton was the only man of his prime draft age classified1-A by that draft board in 1968 whose pre-induction physical examination was put off for 10.5 months. This delay was more than twice as long as anyone else and more than five times longer than most area men of comparable eligibility.” --[Los Angeles Times Sep 02 92] Hmm…

Robert Corrado -- the only surviving Hot Springs draft board member from that period -- concluded that Clinton's draft statement (the long delays) was the result of "some form of peferential treatment." According to the Times, "Corrado recalled that the chairman of the three- an draft panel ... once held back Clinton's file with the explanation that 'we've got to give him time to go to Oxford,' where the semester began in the fall of 1968. Corrado also complained that he was called by an aide to then Senator J. William Fulbright urging him and his fellow board members to 'give every consideration' to keep Clinton out of the draft so he could attend Oxford. Throughout the remainder of 1968, Corrado said, Clinton's draft file was routinely held back from consideration by the full body. Sounds to me like preferential treatment, but I’m sure that you’re going to see this as nothing but a Republican smear campaign.

 

[RandomAccess]

So, would it not be prudent of the military to keep accurate records of an airman who happened to be 1. the grandson of former Senator Prescott Bush (R-Conn), and 2. the son of Congressman (R-Tex) cum UN Ambassador G.H.W. Bush? Those records would either be carefully filed, or carefully secreted-away, depending on whether the content was positive or negative, respectively. The military uses tremendous discretion in dealing with its members who have strong political ties.

G-dub was not a "nobody" (connection-wise) whose records could easily be misplaced.

Plus, Bill Clinton didn't lie about Iraq in order to send troops there erroneously. G-dub did. And HE is the person being discussed here, not Bill Clinton.

 

[Sondrith]

As to the other nonsense you raise, Perry Mason-Wannabe, let's not play Special Prosecutor, let's look at the evidence as it stands, as lay people, because, you know, that's what we are; this is a gay political forum, not the US Supreme Court.

That's a bit asinine comming from someone stomping their feet and demanding facts. You make alot of accusations about Bush being a deserter but you have no facts to support that he did. "his cocaine use was well known" dosent count unless you did a line with him.

As far as connections go that has actually very little to do with day to day runnings of a military unit. His records would be kept next to mine and yours, had you served. As you so kindly pointed out "numerous" records were destroyed. But I admit comming from someone without personal experience, its easy for you to believe in a conspiracy rather than some Pvt destroying some log books from 30 years ago.

"they stated he didn't show up for a full year" interesting you cant seem to recall someone you encountered 30 years ago but because no one from his unit, whom would have seen him what, one weekend every month can recall suddenly he deserted.

Alfie your arguments are flawed, did Bush fail as president..yes most definately, did he lie...probably, though impeachment is highly unlikely, did he use influence to get out of going to Vietnam...absolutely. Is he a deserter..no.

 

[RandomAccess]

Alfie your arguments are flawed, did Bush fail as president..yes most definately, did he lie...probably, though impeachment is highly unlikely, did he use influence to get out of going to Vietnam...absolutely. Is he a deserter..no.

Considering the excellent reasoning on Alf's part, your rebuttal amounts to "I don't believe it, and you can't make me! <hands over ears> LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!"

 

[unclaimedblessing]

The whole "no records" pert to Bush stinks to high heaven.
The Govt & the military have always been criticized for keeping umpteen copies of everything.
His attendance and flight records would have supporting documents in his personnel office, his payroll office, at the flight range, at he medcal support activity and at his units hqs.
Some of these records may have been destroyed, but it's highly unlikely that all were.
If the allegations weren't true, someone, somewhere should have been able to come up with official records to disprove them.
Again, a liar should have a good memory. When they don't, they get trapped in more lies and contradictions.

 

[smelter]

Admittedly, this is a biased website but the questions it raises cannot be dismissed out of hand. On the Bush side of the equation there are some very curious entries, if the intention is to uncover truth rather than bury it in the bullshit, red-herring rhetoric we've seen in this thread from his defenders.

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

 

[smelter]

I don't know how they operated in the Texas and Alabama Air National Guard but in the Army where I served, you either obeyed orders or were sent to the stockade. Only someone who has connections could hope to get away with any of this shit.

You're right GA, his daddy must have been running interference for him the whole time. Class has its priviledges but from what I've seen, Bush has shown very little class in his service to the country as a 1st Lieutenant and even less as our Commander-in-Chief.

 

[SixPackInBoxers]

Alphie and Sondrith,

You should really consider going on the stage and taking this on the road - with all the supporting actors and the Greek chorus as well. I just read the whole post from beginning to end and you had me in stitches as I was laughing aloud. So much so the tears were running down my cheeks. This is quite the funniest thread I have yet come across. Thanks for giving us all a great guffaw.

My dog thought I was going off my rocker but then as the thread continued and I was howling he joined in and was wagging his tail madly beside me.

Not sure if any of you remembered what the thread was about - what was it- because you all changed its course so delightfully. Doubt if any can remember now - but I finally had lie down I was laughing so hard and all your posts were worth it.

Thanks guys - from me and my dog - you made our day.

 

[Sondrith]

Considering the excellent reasoning on Alf's part, your rebuttal amounts to "I don't believe it, and you can't make me! <hands over ears> LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!"

There is no excellent rebuttal coming from Alfie. He's simply throwing accusations and innuendo. "His cocaine habit was well known..." so one must assume that this is the reason that he lost his flight status? While it is entirely possible that that was the reason, there is NO actual evidence of it. He calls him a deserter simply because he was not allowed to fly, henceforth he was unable to perform his job duties. Again, another line of unsubstantiated crap (Look up the MILITARY definition, as well as the punishment, of desertion, if you will)! If that was actually the case then any military person who is unable (or unwilling) to perform their duties,
for any[/I] reason, should be charged with desertion. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense… He continues to state that G.W. Bush's connections got him out of actually going to Vietnam (and, BTW, his father was not even on the Presidential radar at that point, so I guess at least that part of the "rebuttal" is somewhat less-than-accurate), and maybe so, but then so did Clinton's. You can't even admit that. So if one is labeled a deserter then I say lets apply them both with the same label . You know, the old Goose and Gander analogy... But that doesn’t support your agenda, then, does it?

And you say I am covering my ears saying la,la,la.

As far as releasing his military records why should he? I can make up any accusation about Alfie and then it’s up to him to prove me wrong? How naive of you that you think that way. I didn't see the Clintons being so forthcoming with Whitewater, but then I forget--you give them a pass.
Perhaps Chance is wrong--you do make this shit up.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

I usually respect someone who defends an "under dog".
This thread is about Bushs' memory and his lies.
Anyone can see he has lied repeatedly, and his memory is convenient at best.
It doesn't matter about Kerry, Gore, Clinton or McKinley for that matter.
It's about Bushs' lies and the damage they have done to our country and its' citizens.
Are you guys ever going to see the light?

 

[Sondrith]

Perhaps had Bush served his nation, instead of deserting during the Vietnam War, he'd have a better grasp of how to conduct warfare. And maybe if Bush wasn't a pathological liar and freak of nature, he could, you know, settle on one reason?

Actually I see quite clearly. The entire point of this thread was simply another "let's bash Bush". As Alfie himself pointed out. I simply pointed out that we are all quite aware of why you think the US went into Iraq and that President Bush was not in fact a deserter and that President Clinton's use of connections to avoid being drafted was equal to President Bush using connections. Plain and simple.

 

[RandomAccess]

There is no excellent rebuttal coming from Alfie. He's simply throwing accusations and innuendo. "His cocaine habit was well known..." so one must assume that this is the reason that he lost his flight status? While it is entirely possible that that was the reason, there is NO actual evidence of it. He calls him a deserter simply because he was not allowed to fly, henceforth he was unable to perform his job duties. Again, another line of unsubstantiated crap (Look up the MILITARY definition, as well as the punishment, of desertion, if you will)! If that was actually the case then any military person who is unable (or unwilling) to perform their duties,
for any[/I] reason, should be charged with desertion. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense… He continues to state that G.W. Bush's connections got him out of actually going to Vietnam (and, BTW, his father was not even on the Presidential radar at that point, so I guess at least that part of the "rebuttal" is somewhat less-than-accurate), and maybe so, but then so did Clinton's. You can't even admit that. So if one is labeled a deserter then I say lets apply them both with the same label . You know, the old Goose and Gander analogy... But that doesn’t support your agenda, then, does it?

And you say I am covering my ears saying la,la,la.

As far as releasing his military records why should he? I can make up any accusation about Alfie and then it’s up to him to prove me wrong? How naive of you that you think that way. I didn't see the Clintons being so forthcoming with Whitewater, but then I forget--you give them a pass.
Perhaps Chance is wrong--you do make this shit up.

You know what Sond. . . there are some pretty bold accusations in Alf's remarks, no doubt. There are also some pretty bold accusations in the articles attached to the following links. You would think that if these articles were in any way slanderous, G-dub woulda sued the pants off these wiseacres. But, he didn't.

Now, AGAIN. . . this thread isn't about Clinton! It's about G-dub and his lies-lies-lies. What don't you get about that?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/10/18/cocaine/

Book: Bush was arrested for cocaine in 1972
Texas author J.H. Hatfield claims the Republican front-runner did community service at a Houston center.


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Salon Staff


Oct. 18, 1999 | A new book by Texas author J.H. Hatfield claims that George W. Bush was arrested for cocaine possession in 1972, but had his record expunged with help from his family's political connections. In an afterword to his book "Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President" (St. Martin's), Hatfield says he took a second look at the Bush cocaine allegations after a story in Salon reporting allegations that Bush did community service for the crime at the Martin Luther King Jr. Community Center in Houston's Third Ward.

http://www.progress.org/archive/drc12.htm

George Bush Keeps Changing His Story

Governor Bush's Cocaine Problem

This article, first published in the summer of 2000, is not about George Bush's drug use. It is about how he dodges, ducks, and hedges when confronted with his past drug use. American citizens deserve a leader who can be frank and honest.

by Adam J. Smith
First he refused to confirm or deny it. Later he would say only that "when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible." Next he said that the issue wasn't relevant. Then he said that he wouldn't address "rumors." Then he said that he could pass a standard security check dating back seven years. Finally, he said that he could've passed the security check in his father's White House -- fifteen years. Though he had to think before specifying whether he could've passed it then or now. Now, no matter what he says, the issue seems destined to dog him until the day he comes clean.
Texas Governor and Republican presidential frontrunner George W. Bush, Jr. has a cocaine problem.

http://www.doctorzebra.com/prez/g43.htm
(You gotta click on this one to believe it! Here's just one of the little gems included.)

During his 2000 presidential campaign there were persistent questions about a history of cocaine use. Eventually Bush denied using cocaine since 1992, then quickly extended the cocaine-free period back to 1974 (age 28 ). NBC reporter David Bloom then noted "that current White House appointees must disclose any drug use since their 18th birthday" [17]. Bush, however, refused to make a disclosure, instead admitting he'd made mistakes in the past, and if voters didn't like that "they can go find somebody else to vote for. That's the wonderful thing about democracy" [17].

(Bold-Italics added for clarity)

Now, on the military record controversy, here's a little bit that I found very interesting:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=George_W._Bush's_military_service

Bush and military service
In January 1968 Bush was set to graduate from Yale University, making him eligible for the draft and, in all likelihood, service in Vietnam. Bush sought entry into the officer corps of the Texas Air National Guard, which would minimise his chances of being dispatched to Vietnam. Despite scoring low on the entrance exam, Bush was accepted.

The controversy over his military service has concentrated on whether his father, George Herbert Walker Bush who was a U.S. Congressman at the time, exerted influence to ensure his son obtained a 'soft' posting in the National Guard and whether he completed his duties sufficiently to justify his honourable discharge in 1973.
"Bush signed a six-year "military service obligation," he was required to attend at least 44 inactive-duty training drills each fiscal year beginning July 1. But Bush's own records show that he fell short of that requirement, attending only 36 drills in the 1972-73 period, and only 12 in the 1973-74 period." [1]

Bush was assigned serve at the Houston Air National Guard base between 1968 and 1973. Bush graduated from flight school in November 1969 and undertook a further six months training in the F-102 fighter-interceptor. Between June 1970 and April 1972 he flew frequently with his unit.

However, in May 1972 he sought and gained approval to move to Alabama to work on the U.S. Senate campaign of Republican Party candidate, Winton Blount. While in Alabama Bush was obliged to continue his duties with another National Guard unit. After failing to have an annual physical examination Bush was removed from flight duty on August 1, 1972.

Bush's military records reveal that he did not do any duty between April 16 and October 28, 1972 and missed training altogether in December 1972 and February and March 1973. There were no records of him having served with any unit in Alabama. It is a requirement of members of the National Guard that they accumulate a minimum of 50 service points in a year. (Each full day of weekend training is worth two points).

On May 2, 1973 one of Bush's superiors noted that "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." However, no records for service in Alabama exist.[2]

Subsequently Bush spent 36 days in May, June and July 1973 on duty, accumulating 41 points. According to the Boston Globe, he was then awarded 15 'gratuitous' service points - enough to get him across the 50 service points threshold. His last service day was July 30, 1973 and - while originally due to serve through to November 1974 - was honourably discharged early to enable him to attend Harvard Business School. [3]

Furthermore, a U.S. News analysis showed that "during the final two years of his obligation, Bush did not comply with Air Force regulations that impose a time limit on making up missed drills. What's more, he apparently never made up five months of drills he missed in 1972, contrary to assertions by the administration."

(Bold-Italics added for clarity)
Tell me Daddy didn't have a hand in it. . .

 

[frankfrank]

Q: What's the difference between Viet Nam and Iraq?

A: George W. Bush knew how to get out of Viet Nam.