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A Solution to the discrimination argument

Kulindahr

Knox's Papa
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Something no one is addressing in the argument concerning discrimination by businesses (in the Rand Paul thread) is the nature of property. Classical conservatism and libertarianism treat property as essentially an extension of a person, making no real distinction between, say, a large-screen TV and a garden plot. Now, if that classic view is correct, then Paul is correct, and telling business owners that they have to cater to everyone regardless of race, color, creed, etc is immoral and unjust -- there's no way around it. If private property is private, then it doesn't matter if it's my living room, my shower, my business, or my empty stretch of mud, it's no different: I can tell a anyone I want to get off and get lost, and invite anyone I wish to come and enjoy. Thus a lunch counter could tell people over 5' 10" to move on, a movie cinema could forbid people over 2.5lbs/in to stay out.

The solution proposed is to treat business property differently than residential property, and decree that no discrimination is allowed. Note that this is a restriction on the use of property, and thus an implicit admission that it is not private property. That doesn't sit well with conservatives, nor with many liberals; upholding private property is sort of built in for us. But if we want to have anti-discrimination regulations -- or any others, for that matter -- on business, we should be honest and admit that we have abandoned the concept of private property is essentially an extension of a person.

In fact we may as well go ahead and recognize what we effectively have: a system of land leases, with the government as tenant and the title a certificate of lease. That's how you get authority over a piece of property, by owning it. If government has authority over a piece of property, it owns it, at least in part (the other option being that it owns the businessperson, but in that case it only owns him part-time, i.e. at work, which is silly).

The question is why we should treat a person's real estate -- the class of property under consideration -- and specifically, business real estate, as an extension of his person, or why not. If it is, as explained above, he can bar males from sitting at the bar, refuse Koreans use of the restroom facility, or otherwise restrict anyone at all on the basis of any characteristic he chooses in any fashion he might desire (if customers would put up with it, he could ask them to verify their last year's income, and provide service based on that). If it is not, which is the premise of regulations concerning his use thereof, then one may regulate away, on the basis of whatever foundation for land ownership one adopts.

The obvious rationale for me owning my clothes is that I bought them with money that is the fruit of my labor, or at least of my creative efforts. The same is true of portable property, including vehicles. But on this rationale, there can be no foundation for the ownership of land: land is already there, not the fruit of anyone's labor or creativity; it merely exists, not coming from manufacture. Early efforts at rationales for ownership of land included improving it or at least making use of it, but that merely dodges the question of why one may acquire ownership in any way at all. Other claims rest on long-term occupation, or on acquisition by force, but all in the end reduce to the simple act of laying claim to something o human has made, without any other basis than to say, "It's mine".

OTOH, the flip side of that might be that there is no foundation for land ownership, that all such claims are false, that anyone may use whatever piece of land he wishes and move on.

But on the gripping hand (for those who get the reference; suffice it to say it's the third option in a set), if there's any rational foundation for ownership of land by humans, can it apply unequally? There either is one or there isn't; if there isn't, our whole society is in trouble; if there is, then it has to apply equally to all given the equality of all. That leads to a simple solution: all the land belongs to everyone. Every person belongs to a "corporation of the whole", and as a member of the human race, owns the planet.

Leaving aside the details of how that would work, here's the point: if all land belongs to all people, there is legitimate foundation for anti-discrimination law. Instead of the rule, the sort of provisions for a person's home become the exception, an exclusion granted to accommodate the right to privacy; the use of business property becomes the norm. And since business property sits on land owned by the corporation of the whole, no holder of business property has the authority to deny any member of the corporation access to the property (except under specified provisions, e.g. a court order or other such existing causes).

If we all own all the land, no one may bar us from access to a business.
 
Native Americans had it right. Mankind should be stewards of the land, not owners of it. Trade should be something one person does with another, not something that one lords-over the other.

The idea that a bigot can extend his/her bigotry through their business is ignorant. It's self defeating. It's one of those cases where government, in protecting the customer, protects the merchant from his own ignorance.

What ever happened to people owning businesses for the joy of doing something they love? In effect, the business should be their vocation, their livelihood, and who it is that gives them money to serve in that capacity should be irrelevant. . . should be welcomed.

Customers should not have to suffer the ignorance of merchants who cut off their proverbial noses to spite their faces.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j8pigG5bwA[/ame]
 
Kulindahr,

IMO, theoretically you are correct, however, from a legal standpoint, you are not. The courts have already set legal precedent when you apply for a business license. You are agreeing that the business will serve "the public". There are no exclusions. Thus, not allowing someone in based on race or most any other reason is discrimminatory, thus illegal, regardless that you own it. Of course, the exception to this is if you open a "private" club requiring specific membership guidelines that you, as the owner, dictate. An example of that are many gay clubs that are "private clubs", not open to "the public" and require membership fees, cards and have specific rules. There are several in my city and they post clear notices in a prominent place at the entrance that say something to the effect that..."This is a gay establishment. If you have a problem with homosexuals, please leave now". If you enter under false pretenses and later cause a problem, you are permanently banned and stripped of all membership materials.

On the issue of property, once again, there is legal precedent. You can buy commercial and residential property and pay cash for it and yes, you own it. However, you will pay taxes on that property in perpetuity. Stop paying the taxes and the property is no longer yours. It will simply be liened or foreclosed by the government for the taxes owed. Essentially, you own no property in this country unless you pay the taxes on said property, when due. To compound the issue of property ownership and taxes is the debaucle approved during the Bush years regarding "the right of eminent domain". If the government deems that they can make more tax money on your property than you are paying, they can essentially buy you out and throw you off your land. Of course the government said it would never do that unless under very extentuating cases. Fine. If that is the case, why have this law at all? It was simply another "right" stripped away from the people.

I hope I have responded within the context of your proposed solution as I understood it.
 
What ever happened to people owning businesses for the joy of doing something they love? In effect, the business should be their vocation, their livelihood, and who it is that gives them money to serve in that capacity should be irrelevant. . . should be welcomed.

In many cases, such people have been legislated out of the opportunity. If I'd wanted to run my handyman business from a commercial building, i would have had to hock everything I owned just to get started, and wouldn't even have been able to pay the building expenses. We have so many regulations that many creative people end up slaving for large corporations because the competition has been effectively killed by law.

But if someone's joy lies in providing service to only his own gender, or religion, why should that not be permitted?

Customers should not have to suffer the ignorance of merchants who cut off their proverbial noses to spite their faces.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j8pigG5bwA

I love the guy at about 4:45. He's right: if we were all taught as well as he was to stand up for what is right, discriminating businesses would be in serious trouble. If I ran into a discriminating restaurant, and found that people of the class against which it discriminated wanted to eat there (and assuming it wasn't beyond my means), I'd just keep inviting such people to join me, and make a public scene every time. If ejected, I'd write letters to the editor urging people to boycott the place; if banned I'd picket it.

And that's what's needed, not laws. A people is only as moral as its voluntary actions. By that measure, not many Americans believe in freedom any longer, except the freedom to be comfortable and be left alone in it -- they don't care about anyone else.

Quite simply, though, if that restaurant sat on land owned by the corporation of the whole, the only people it would be allowed to discriminate against would be those who can't be found in the whole -- either the United States or the whole world, or perhaps the particular state. And as you said, we are all stewards of the land -- and if we all owned all the land, we'd also be stewards of the rights of everyone, and the equality of everyone, because with stewardship of the land comes stewardship of all that's on it.
 
Kulindahr,

IMO, theoretically you are correct, however, from a legal standpoint, you are not. The courts have already set legal precedent when you apply for a business license. You are agreeing that the business will serve "the public". There are no exclusions. Thus, not allowing someone in based on race or most any other reason is discrimminatory, thus illegal, regardless that you own it. Of course, the exception to this is if you open a "private" club requiring specific membership guidelines that you, as the owner, dictate. An example of that are many gay clubs that are "private clubs", not open to "the public" and require membership fees, cards and have specific rules. There are several in my city and they post clear notices in a prominent place at the entrance that say something to the effect that..."This is a gay establishment. If you have a problem with homosexuals, please leave now". If you enter under false pretenses and later cause a problem, you are permanently banned and stripped of all membership materials.

The trouble is that I ought to be able to run a business as a private club, and courts have dissed that. The solution, as I said, is to acknowledge that all of the land belongs to all of us; then businesses, at least, wouldn't be able to discriminate. Private clubs should still be allowed, of course, under freedom of association.

That brings up a side up: under this concept, churches would be classed as private clubs -- and would not be exempt from land rent. Nor, interestingly, would government buildings and facilities. :D

On the issue of property, once again, there is legal precedent. You can buy commercial and residential property and pay cash for it and yes, you own it. However, you will pay taxes on that property in perpetuity. Stop paying the taxes and the property is no longer yours. It will simply be liened or foreclosed by the government for the taxes owed. Essentially, you own no property in this country unless you pay the taxes on said property, when due. To compound the issue of property ownership and taxes is the debaucle approved during the Bush years regarding "the right of eminent domain". If the government deems that they can make more tax money on your property than you are paying, they can essentially buy you out and throw you off your land. Of course the government said it would never do that unless under very extentuating cases. Fine. If that is the case, why have this law at all? It was simply another "right" stripped away from the people.

I hope I have responded within the context of your proposed solution as I understood it.

The matter of taxes shows that we do in fact have a nascent grasp of land rent and custodianship.

And under the corporation of the whole concept, government would only be able to appropriate a piece of land by majority vote of all the members of the corporation -- a majority of the members, not of those voting.

In many ways, private property would be more private; in others, it would be less so. But in the context of the thread, it would not be a basis for discrimination -- and Rand Paul and others would be out of luck.
 
And that's what's needed, not laws. A people is only as moral as its voluntary actions. By that measure, not many Americans believe in freedom any longer, except the freedom to be comfortable and be left alone in it -- they don't care about anyone else.

I apologize in advance for making such a brief response in a thread begun with such a long thoughtful post. I don't wish to appear flippant in response.

I don't particularly care how moral the people are. I care that rights are protected - though what those rights are may be a source of disagreement. And I'm very content to have a system of laws for that purpose.
 
Kulindahr,

IMO, theoretically you are correct, however, from a legal standpoint, you are not. The courts have already set legal precedent when you apply for a business license. You are agreeing that the business will serve "the public". There are no exclusions. Thus, not allowing someone in based on race or most any other reason is discrimminatory, thus illegal, regardless that you own it. Of course, the exception to this is if you open a "private" club requiring specific membership guidelines that you, as the owner, dictate. An example of that are many gay clubs that are "private clubs", not open to "the public" and require membership fees, cards and have specific rules. There are several in my city and they post clear notices in a prominent place at the entrance that say something to the effect that..."This is a gay establishment. If you have a problem with homosexuals, please leave now". If you enter under false pretenses and later cause a problem, you are permanently banned and stripped of all membership materials.

On the issue of property, once again, there is legal precedent. You can buy commercial and residential property and pay cash for it and yes, you own it. However, you will pay taxes on that property in perpetuity. Stop paying the taxes and the property is no longer yours. It will simply be liened or foreclosed by the government for the taxes owed. Essentially, you own no property in this country unless you pay the taxes on said property, when due. To compound the issue of property ownership and taxes is the debaucle approved during the Bush years regarding "the right of eminent domain". If the government deems that they can make more tax money on your property than you are paying, they can essentially buy you out and throw you off your land. Of course the government said it would never do that unless under very extentuating cases. Fine. If that is the case, why have this law at all? It was simply another "right" stripped away from the people.

I hope I have responded within the context of your proposed solution as I understood it.


Thank you, Thank you, Thank you...When people don't know the Law they talk out of their Ass...
 
I apologize in advance for making such a brief response in a thread begun with such a long thoughtful post. I don't wish to appear flippant in response.

No flippancy seen.

I don't particularly care how moral the people are. I care that rights are protected - though what those rights are may be a source of disagreement. And I'm very content to have a system of laws for that purpose.

I hold with the Founding Fathers and Framers that the protection of rights ultimately depends on the morality of a people, by which they at root meant respect for others -- which ties to the recognition of self-ownership.

Any system of laws also functions only as well as the morality of a people. Just as an example, the more moral a people, the fewer laws are needed in the first place, and the ones which exist will be less often violated. As another, the less moral the people, the more frequently the police and courts will misuse their power, and the less the people will object.
But a system of laws will also only function as well as their philosophical foundation. Our philosophical concept of private property leads to the position held by Rand Paul, that discrimination by business owners is perfectly acceptable; change the foundation to something rational, not based on coercion (which is where pretty much all land claims at this point originated), and his assertion fails.

As a people we are intuitively beginning to recognize that. We now need to alter our philosophical foundation to the rational basis for it.
 
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you...When people don't know the Law they talk out of their Ass...

I know the law just fine -- and it's wrong, because it's internally inconsistent.

In reference to the line to which you responded:

With the present system of private property, by which I mean the philosophical foundation thereof, there is no rational basis for requiring a business license; it is a frivolous exercise of power in violation of rights.
 
In many cases, such people have been legislated out of the opportunity. If I'd wanted to run my handyman business from a commercial building, i would have had to hock everything I owned just to get started, and wouldn't even have been able to pay the building expenses. We have so many regulations that many creative people end up slaving for large corporations because the competition has been effectively killed by law.

But if someone's joy lies in providing service to only his own gender, or religion, why should that not be permitted?



I love the guy at about 4:45. He's right: if we were all taught as well as he was to stand up for what is right, discriminating businesses would be in serious trouble. If I ran into a discriminating restaurant, and found that people of the class against which it discriminated wanted to eat there (and assuming it wasn't beyond my means), I'd just keep inviting such people to join me, and make a public scene every time. If ejected, I'd write letters to the editor urging people to boycott the place; if banned I'd picket it.

And that's what's needed, not laws. A people is only as moral as its voluntary actions. By that measure, not many Americans believe in freedom any longer, except the freedom to be comfortable and be left alone in it -- they don't care about anyone else.

Quite simply, though, if that restaurant sat on land owned by the corporation of the whole, the only people it would be allowed to discriminate against would be those who can't be found in the whole -- either the United States or the whole world, or perhaps the particular state. And as you said, we are all stewards of the land -- and if we all owned all the land, we'd also be stewards of the rights of everyone, and the equality of everyone, because with stewardship of the land comes stewardship of all that's on it.

Again I say, people shouldn't have to suffer the ignorance. If someone hangs-out a shingle, they're in effect offering their goods or services to anyone who comes in their door and they forfeit the right to discriminate. They are opening their business to the "public."
 
Again I say, people shouldn't have to suffer the ignorance. If someone hangs-out a shingle, they're in effect offering their goods or services to anyone who comes in their door and they forfeit the right to discriminate. They are opening their business to the "public."

If all they do is hang out their shingle, sure. If they want to discriminate, they should have to say so in big letters right on the outside of the establishment. Let them phrase it however they want (Catering proudly to our own White People, for example). Though there's no "ignorance" involved, only personal preference -- the sign would take care of the other kind.

But all of this would be moot if we had a rationally-based system of property: if everyone owned it all, no member of the corporation of the whole could be excluded.
 
In any argument about property, one has to consider the morality of taxation. The state taxes property, and here I am pleased to consider property as an extension of the person.

It is not unreasonable to equate any mandatory burden as a form of taxation. In this case, non-discrimination can be treated as a tax.

So is any tax moral? I dunno. Does it serve a social purpose? Can any benefit be attributed to the party responsible for paying?

I do not think the argument has been sustained for anarchy. I do think there are grounds for collective responsibility. I find that, depending on the tax, it is moral.

In order from best to worst, I like:
carbon tax
poll tax
social obligations (health & safety, non-discrimination, accounting regulations, labelling, etc.)
flat-rate income tax
sales tax
inheritance tax
progressive income tax
sin tax
import tariff or quota.

I like user fees quite a bit, but I think there are a wide range of essential activities that are not amenable to user fees, and some form of taxation must support them.
 
If all they do is hang out their shingle, sure. If they want to discriminate, they should have to say so in big letters right on the outside of the establishment. Let them phrase it however they want (Catering proudly to our own White People, for example). Though there's no "ignorance" involved, only personal preference -- the sign would take care of the other kind.

But all of this would be moot if we had a rationally-based system of property: if everyone owned it all, no member of the corporation of the whole could be excluded.

That's just a moronic statement. . . to turn back the hands of time by 60 years. . . I assume you take great pride in it, but you scare the ever-l;ovin' shit out of me with beliefs like that. Thank God most of the country is still sane enough to NOT elect people like you and the Pauls. :wave: Buh-bye!
 
That's just a moronic statement. . . to turn back the hands of time by 60 years. . . I assume you take great pride in it, but you scare the ever-l;ovin' shit out of me with beliefs like that. Thank God most of the country is still sane enough to NOT elect people like you and the Pauls. :wave: Buh-bye!

Apparently you're responding without reading -- I already said that Rand Paul's position is immoral.

But if the concept of private property as currently held is correct, then so is he.

The country would do well to elect people like me, if they like:

non-discrimination laws applying to business
a rational system of property ownership
a basic subsistence payment for everyone not based on taxation
environmental laws which do not constitute "taking"
and more....
 
Apparently you're responding without reading -- I already said that Rand Paul's position is immoral.

But if the concept of private property as currently held is correct, then so is he.

The country would do well to elect people like me, if they like:

non-discrimination laws applying to business
a rational system of property ownership
a basic subsistence payment for everyone not based on taxation
environmental laws which do not constitute "taking"
and more....

Then why do you defend discrimination? Why? Just to piss off the liberals? What's the fuckin' point of insisting it's within a merchant's rights to deny products to anyone they choose? I know, you're going to say it was only to make the point about property ownership. Couldn't you have stated an abhorrence for discrimination and THEN made your point about property?

I'm gonna have a shitty time falling asleep tonight. <sigh> ](*,)
 
Then why do you defend discrimination? Why? Just to piss off the liberals? What's the fuckin' point of insisting it's within a merchant's rights to deny products to anyone they choose? I know, you're going to say it was only to make the point about property ownership. Couldn't you have stated an abhorrence for discrimination and THEN made your point about property?

I'm gonna have a shitty time falling asleep tonight. <sigh> ](*,)

I defend discrimination under the current system because as composed it within the 'rights' of the individual.

This wasn't to make any point about property ownership -- property ownership as presently conceived is the root of the problem. We have no rational basis for it, so we have an ad hoc system where every virtually title actually rests on coercion and nothing else.

A rational system would recognize that the only claim to ownership of the planet is by the entire race. Declaring this as a basis would provide for a corporation-of-the-whole (which I'm going to start abbreviating CotW), which would own the land (surface area) in which that CotW had jurisdiction. Under contract law, it would automatically become illegal to exclude any member of the corporation from corporation property except as otherwise specified.

In this thread I am proposing a rational system of property as the solution to discrimination, which under the present system is defensible. Ultimately it is no more defensible than charging for breathing air, because no one can lay claim to the atmosphere or any portion thereof (the matter of extracting specific gases being arguable).


BTW, this has nothing to do with abhorrence, except of irrational systems. If the current system of private property had a rational basis, I would be content with discrimination being allowed, though I would, as stated in one of these threads, protest it personally. But I have never found a rational basis for the current system, just groping in the dark that always ends up being a matter of coercion (or claiming something for free under a system backed by coercion.
 
I defend discrimination under the current system because as composed it within the 'rights' of the individual.

This wasn't to make any point about property ownership -- property ownership as presently conceived is the root of the problem. We have no rational basis for it, so we have an ad hoc system where every virtually title actually rests on coercion and nothing else.

A rational system would recognize that the only claim to ownership of the planet is by the entire race. Declaring this as a basis would provide for a corporation-of-the-whole (which I'm going to start abbreviating CotW), which would own the land (surface area) in which that CotW had jurisdiction. Under contract law, it would automatically become illegal to exclude any member of the corporation from corporation property except as otherwise specified.

In this thread I am proposing a rational system of property as the solution to discrimination, which under the present system is defensible. Ultimately it is no more defensible than charging for breathing air, because no one can lay claim to the atmosphere or any portion thereof (the matter of extracting specific gases being arguable).


BTW, this has nothing to do with abhorrence, except of irrational systems. If the current system of private property had a rational basis, I would be content with discrimination being allowed, though I would, as stated in one of these threads, protest it personally. But I have never found a rational basis for the current system, just groping in the dark that always ends up being a matter of coercion (or claiming something for free under a system backed by coercion.

So you're talking about a complete overhaul of the entire planet, radical changes in all our systems of governance, economics, everything, as I read this.

Plan away.:cool:
 
So you're talking about a complete overhaul of the entire planet, radical changes in all our systems of governance, economics, everything, as I read this.

Plan away.:cool:

Not really -- only the addition of a non-governmental entity which would collect the rent for the land, distribute the majority to individuals on an equal basis, and a redefinition of what it means to have property. All at once, the non-discrimination laws for businesses would have a sound basis, not just a vague emotional one; environmental laws would have a sound basis, and more. The song "This Land is Your Land" would speak/sing of a reality, not a warm fuzzy type concept.

Oh -- and one-fifth of land rent would be passed on to government in lieu of property taxes.

Other than that, things would go on just as they are. We could start calling titles "leases", except that would be misleading as there would be no authority for eviction except in case of abuse of the land, so "title" would still make sense (though I would prefer the label "Statement of Holding", to indicate that the entity does not own the land in the traditional sense, but holds it as a member of the corporation).

So no economics changes, except that everyone would get an even share of the revenues from land rents, no change in government, except putting a number of things on a rational basis. Ideally, for the U.S., a constitutional amendment would be in order (just as should have been done for Social Security and the environmental laws).
 
The obvious rationale for me owning my clothes is that I bought them with money that is the fruit of my labor, or at least of my creative efforts. The same is true of portable property, including vehicles. But on this rationale, there can be no foundation for the ownership of land: land is already there, not the fruit of anyone's labor or creativity; it merely exists, not coming from manufacture.

There seems to be a flaw here. The land we put houses on is worked on by people. We don't simply plop houses and cities on top of wilderness. Humans have been shaping the land around us for thousands of years. We flatten hills, we carve tunnels, we take out trees, we put up trees, we put down sod, we grow vegetables/fruits. How is a farmer's plot not the fruit of his labor as surely as a rug is the fruit of someone's labor? There is little land left in the world that hasn't been shaped in some way by human hands. Is that not labor? The land all around us is the fruit of peoples' labor. And the buildings that sit on top of much of them are also as much the end result of someone's labor as farmland is. Your argument here seems to depend on the notion that we simply build houses, cities, barns, offices, etcetera on whatever land we happen to find, as is. Which is rarely the case.
 
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