Abortion

[JB3]

From the Annals of the Improbable file:

If a man is sexually assaulted by a woman, could a woman be reasonably compelled to carry a resulting fœtus to term if the man wished to raise the child?

That's a complicated question, with no easy answer. (not the least of which because such a situation has likely never occurred)

 

[bankside]

I think it is improbable. There is a similar example - there was one guy who agreed to oral sex with a woman, but the woman then inseminated her friend without his consent or knowledge.

I remember the story because amazingly, even though the facts of the case were agreed, some kind of moron judge ordered him to pay child support.

But if the shoe were on the other foot, and say the woman had regrets and wanted an abortion, would you compel her to deliver the child if the man wanted to raise it?

 

[Kulindahr]

From the Annals of the Improbable file:

If a man is sexually assaulted by a woman, could a woman be reasonably compelled to carry a resulting fœtus to term if the man wished to raise the child?

I think it is improbable. There is a similar example - there was one guy who agreed to oral sex with a woman, but the woman then inseminated her friend without his consent or knowledge.

I remember the story because amazingly, even though the facts of the case were agreed, some kind of moron judge ordered him to pay child support.

But if the shoe were on the other foot, and say the woman had regrets and wanted an abortion, would you compel her to deliver the child if the man wanted to raise it?

Interesting question -- and I remember the case, and the stupidity of the judge.

Does this come back to the issue of parenthood, or to the issue of personhood, or to both? On the personhood aspect, once the unborn is a person, no one can have it terminated without being a murderer. On the parenthood aspect, the father has equal rights with the mother over things.

OTOH, look at it while leaving out the assault aspect: if the unborn has reached the active brainwave stage and is thus a person, and the man wants the child but the woman doesn't, it would not be unreasonable to require that the man pay the expenses which would not have occurred had there been an early abortion.

 

[bankside]

Interesting question -- and I remember the case, and the stupidity of the judge.

Does this come back to the issue of parenthood, or to the issue of personhood, or to both? On the personhood aspect, once the unborn is a person, no one can have it terminated without being a murderer. On the parenthood aspect, the father has equal rights with the mother over things.

OTOH, look at it while leaving out the assault aspect: if the unborn has reached the active brainwave stage and is thus a person, and the man wants the child but the woman doesn't, it would not be unreasonable to require that the man pay the expenses which would not have occurred had there been an early abortion.

In a functional justice system, I suspect the civil proceeds from his lawsuit against her would more than cover any of her expenses he would need to pay.

But I also think that the burden of proof would be on the woman to demonstrate that she intended to get pregnant and have an abortion when she stole his genetic material.
It seems like a stretch - in other words, she was anticipating the expenses of pregnancy without expectation of monetary compensation from the victim, and she should bear the expenses along with the child. I don't think she would prevail in a claim but ultimately I don't think a court would even entertain a claim for expenses from her. She made her bed and lied in it.

In fact, I would consider her conduct so egregious as to be grounds for in-utero termination of parental rights. The kid might be gestating in her uterus, but the only parent he has would be the dad.

Of course, the record shows that the court did fall for all of her nonsense. Either that or the law left the court no mandate to implement a just solution. (Well, not without being one of those awful "activist judges" anyway.)

 

[Kulindahr]

In fact, I would consider her conduct so egregious as to be grounds for in-utero termination of parental rights. The kid might be gestating in her uterus, but the only parent he has would be the dad.

Of course, the record shows that the court did fall for all of her nonsense. Either that or the law left the court no mandate to implement a just solution. (Well, not without being one of those awful "activist judges" anyway.)

Fascinating idea!

I can hear the howls of the feminazis already....

 

[yeeeaaahhh]

In 1963, my mom took drugs similiar to Thalidimide (that causes babies to have flipper arms)

The doctor suggested she have an abortin. She decided not too

I came across an abortion video online. Its gruesome and anyone who wants to have an abortion should see what actually happens . . . just like drunk drivers are taken through a morgue

Its probbaly easy to find a video if you google 'abortion video'

I hate it when people say things like this. OMG abortions are so bad, just look how gross they are!!
I hate to break it to you, but pretty much any surgery is disgusting. Have you ever watched a doctor remove cancer, it is really really gross. Should we not do those either? Brain surgery is probably the most disgusting of them all, maybe we should make those illegal too.

 

[JB3]

I hate it when people say things like this. OMG abortions are so bad, just look how gross they are!!
I hate to break it to you, but pretty much any surgery is disgusting. Have you ever watched a doctor remove cancer, it is really really gross. Should we not do those either? Brain surgery is probably the most disgusting of them all, maybe we should make those illegal too.

What a nice irrelevant argument you have there. How about addressing the fact that what abortions do to the babies IS gruesome, which is very separate from the surgical aspect.

 

[yeeeaaahhh]

What a nice irrelevant argument you have there. How about addressing the fact that what abortions do to the babies IS gruesome, which is very separate from the surgical aspect.

It is pretty gross, sure. But I don't think that should make it illegal. That is what I was getting at.
Yes, an abortion is pretty fucking sick to watch, but as long as it is being done before the third trimester, the fetus does not have a developed central nervous system and thus wouldn't even feel anything. Not to mention, it wouldn't even have the cognitive abilities to know what is going on.

Yes, it is gross. Yes, it is sad. But that does not mean it should be illegal.

 

[bankside]

Except that abortion isn't done to babies, it is done to women.

 

[elle]

pro life, pro choice...i am pro abortion actually &
i know a few who should have been.

 

[JB3]

It is pretty gross, sure. But I don't think that should make it illegal. That is what I was getting at.
Yes, an abortion is pretty fucking sick to watch, but as long as it is being done before the third trimester, the fetus does not have a developed central nervous system and thus wouldn't even feel anything. Not to mention, it wouldn't even have the cognitive abilities to know what is going on.

Yes, it is gross. Yes, it is sad. But that does not mean it should be illegal.

Oh, I wasn't saying it should be illegal, because I don't believe that.

Your post was just highly irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Kurn]

I actually feel that an abortion shouldn't happen unless there are serious health problems or the fetus is highly deformed or something.
But as a legal matter I leave the question to the woman. This is because this is the best way over-all for society.
The woman is free to obey her upbringing.
The woman is free to listen to all sorts of advice.
The woman is free to pay attention to what the doctor advises and shut out everything else.
The woman is free to bring any child with whatever problems it might have into the world.
The woman is free to bring a child into the world simply because it's her boyfriend's.
Or not to all that and so on.
The woman is mostly her own legislature on all such matters.
No one else can coerce. No one can apply emotional abuse.
We as a society are free to examine all the aspects of abortion and childbirth in a classroom or similar setting.
But as a matter of law, it must be up to the woman and her alone. Alone or not so alone, as she finds herself.
Keeping fetuses should be something that is wisely encouraged.
But the choice is the woman's.

No one can threaten or coerce. That could be an area for social deterrence in the form of legal incrimination.

A fetus is a unique being. But a woman knows that. Is she young and foolish? It doesn't take much to let her know her options.
It doesn't take much for society to stop taking the violent, agonistic stance that it has and simply agree that the woman's body is the fundamental given that no legislature can legislate about in normal circumstances.
.
It's the woman's body. It's the woman's choice.

 

[Kulindahr]

I hate it when people say things like this. OMG abortions are so bad, just look how gross they are!!
I hate to break it to you, but pretty much any surgery is disgusting. Have you ever watched a doctor remove cancer, it is really really gross. Should we not do those either? Brain surgery is probably the most disgusting of them all, maybe we should make those illegal too.

The students who ran the AV department when I was in high school did an annual contest for the "Best Movie Backwards" -- every movie that came through the department for classes or assemblies or whatever got run backwards, and the AV students (and guests) voted on them.

One year it was "War in the Pacific", because of how kool it was watching kamikazi planes emerge our of flaming ships and zoom backwards to their carriers. But the most memorable, all-time winner was "Emergency Childbirth", where we got to repeatedly see doctors, policemen, fathers, etc. ramming newborn infants back inside the mothers.

The subtitle appended to the winning "Htribdlihc Ycnegreme" was "Still Just as Gross".


All of which is a lead-in to say, if we're going to ban things because they're gross, ban childbirth.

 

[Kulindahr]

Ironic.... a bunch of queens on a gay sex site up in arms and wanting to outlaw a procedure that doesn't affect them in any way, ever, directly because they don't like it or agree with it. Good grief what a bunch of hypocritical Marys condemning the govt for not allowing gay marriage but seeking to outlaw abortion. I've seen everything now.

I guess next time some foreign government to which the U.S. gives foreign aid starts shooting gay teens I shouldn't complain, because it doesn't affect me in any way?

Any wrong against any person is a wrong against all persons. That's reason enough to get involved.

 

[JB3]

No, the only reason anyone here is "against" abortion, and therefore seeking to curtail other's current rights under law is because of religion.

What a bunch of bullshit. I'm hardly religious; I rarely go to church, and don't follow pretty much any Catholic doctrine. But I'm against the bulk of abortions, and religion has nothing to do with it.

 

[Ddouble]

Depends on when it is performed.

On a full grown viable baby, yes I would consider it murder.

On a mass of cells that doesn't even resemble a person, no.

But those mass of cells that don't even resemble a person,
if left alone, eventually will...

 

[opinterph]

The moment the egg is ...

Is a sperm a living organism?

(Why not?)​

 

[JB3]

So you favor some abortions, but not others? Um. Ok. Can you explain? Why are you opposed to something you will never have to deal with?

Well, I'm totally against partial-birth and late term abortions, as are the majority of americans. Early abortions, well, I think that's a case by case basis.

Let's be clear now though, I don't feel the need to impose my views on others. Of course I'll hold them and defend them when need be, but you won't see me at any of those crazy anti-abortion rallies.

 

[JB3]

And they are illegal unless the mother's imminent health is in danger.



Ok, so you basically support the current law as is. What was with the whole issue you took on this thread then?

People are debating the issue. That's a whole lot different than me actively preventing a woman from having an abortion. I'll debate it any day of the week with anyone that wants to, which is what was happening in this thread.

 

[Kurn]

Let's debate how Droid800's body can be forced to be more moral.

Then let's debate the endless fine points of our conflicting opinions while the house burns down around us...

See...we have to leave this stuff up to the woman. No one else may trespass here. The life of the human race has to grow up and admit that the woman's uterus is her own and no one else's to even discuss.