Academic freedom and "reasonable accommodation."

[bankside]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...k-students-case-stirs-debate/article16246401/

A student’s request to be excused from course work on religious grounds so he would not have to interact with female peers has opened a fractious debate over how institutions navigate between competing human rights.

J. Paul Grayson, a sociology professor at York University, received the request in September and denied it, arguing it would give tacit support to a negative view of women. But the dean of the faculty of arts disagreed and has ordered him to grant the accommodation.

I love that this is occurring in a faculty of sociology.

Anyway, to me it is pretty open-and-shut; the professor is creating a certain academic environment; the student is free to pursue the course for credit or not; the failure of the student to engage with all other students in the assigned coursework would constitute academic misconduct. What think you?

 

[xbuzzerx]

There is one problem with the professor's reasoning: many customs, observances and practices of other cultures may separate gender and it does not carry with it any inherent belief that the separation must stem because women are "inferior." In many cultural and religious practices there are gender roles but they fit within a certain cosmology or spiritual belief system about what each gender is best at doing--- not that men and women must be separated because men are better.

However, if the issue is that the student believes his beliefs do not allow him to interact with women whatsoever, then like you I question why he was attending a co-ed university in the first place.

 

[Vitamin]

I don't think there's a religion out there that prohibits men being in the same room with women. If there is it's not worth recognizing as it'll be dead within one generation anyways.

That being said, I have a feeling this is more of a psychiatric issue for this poor guy. Anyone else getting a Raj from Big Bang Theory vibe from this?

 

[T-Rexx]

"Education" is the process of transferring the accumulated knowledge of mankind to as many people as possible, to as great an extent as possible.

Part of the conveyance knowledge is an appreciation of the contributions and thoughts of women in every field.

It is not appropriate to exclude so much education from a student because he is uncomfortable with the process of learning.

I was once a student in a biology class where another student objected to the teaching of evolution on religious grounds. I have no sympathy for such religious bigotry against knowledge. Just because your religion does not allow you to know the truth about the world does not remove the obligation of educators from trying to convey it to you.

 

[Benvolio]

It does not say he is Muslim, but Muslims have similar restrictions. It really stems from the primitive belief that the husband or future husband owns the wife as his property and he does not want to share her. Some women are forced to wear the burkas (sp?) covering all but the eyes, because she is for her husband only. Female circumcision is to make sure that she does not commit adultery. Separation serves the same purpose, and arises from the same belief in the future husbands ownership.
Clearly, we should not allow them to indulge these practices in our country. We should stop them from immigrating. But if we allow them, they should not be allowed to continue any practice which treats women as unequals or as property.
In England last summer, large numbers of women parade around in black with only the eyes showing. They want to be in the country and get its freebies, but they want absolutely nothing to do with the English. It is projected that the country will have a Muslim majority by 2050. Germany as well.

 

[xbuzzerx]

In England last summer, large numbers of women parade around in black with only the eyes showing. They want to be in the country and get its freebies, but they want absolutely nothing to do with the English. It is projected that the country will have a Muslim majority by 2050. Germany as well.

Nativists spread that crap around just like they did here saying we'd be a Spanish speaking hispanic country by 2000, or 2010, or 2015, back in the 80's and 90's.

Then again I realize I'm saying this to exactly one of those nativists...

 

[xbuzzerx]

"Education" is the process of transferring the accumulated knowledge of mankind to as many people as possible, to as great an extent as possible.

Part of the conveyance knowledge is an appreciation of the contributions and thoughts of women in every field.

It is not appropriate to exclude so much education from a student because he is uncomfortable with the process of learning.

I was once a student in a biology class where another student objected to the teaching of evolution on religious grounds. I have no sympathy for such religious bigotry against knowledge. Just because your religion does not allow you to know the truth about the world does not remove the obligation of educators from trying to convey it to you.

In fairness, the student didn't ask the professor to halt the class. He asked for an accomodation to be excused from presumably group projects or similar-- or at least, that's how I understood the request. It's two different things to condemn anyone expecting women to be excluded from education on religious grounds (which I agree with you on, of course) from a personal request for alternative accomodation so that one can meet their religious beliefs.

One thing I don't like about this story is that it left the details so incredibly vague as to what the student was asking to be accomodated about-- whether it was coming to class altogether, or if it was being excused from let's say out of class group projects and instead asking to be able to do alternative individual projects. If it is the former, then like I said in my first reply it begs a question of why the student is in a co-ed university to begin with, as one cannot simply browse through a co-ed college and expect to find classes with only one gender (well.. maybe Gender Studies...) enrolled in them. If it's the latter, however, then the request would really not fall out of line of other students asking for the same sort of accomodation because of travel, anxiety problems, sickness or another religious observance (say a holiday forbidding work or a day of prayer or similar) that few of us would be offended by. I'm uncomfortable with the notion that we all should have to "agree" with his religion to make reasonable room for him to observe his beliefs because that certainly isn't going to stop with "things we all agree are bad." I've heard some absolutely scathing opinions from people in midwestern states about Sun Dances, which sometimes may require up to a week once you figure in travel and depending on where you go to one.

 

[Benvolio]

In fairness, the student didn't ask the professor to halt the class. He asked for an accomodation to be excused from presumably group projects or similar-- or at least, that's how I understood the request. It's two different things to condemn anyone expecting women to be excluded from education on religious grounds (which I agree with you on, of course) from a personal request for alternative accomodation so that one can meet their religious beliefs.

One thing I don't like about this story is that it left the details so incredibly vague as to what the student was asking to be accomodated about-- whether it was coming to class altogether, or if it was being excused from let's say out of class group projects and instead asking to be able to do alternative individual projects. If it is the former, then like I said in my first reply it begs a question of why the student is in a co-ed university to begin with, as one cannot simply browse through a co-ed college and expect to find classes with only one gender (well.. maybe Gender Studies...) enrolled in them. If it's the latter, however, then the request would really not fall out of line of other students asking for the same sort of accomodation because of travel, anxiety problems, sickness or another religious observance (say a holiday forbidding work or a day of prayer or similar) that few of us would be offended by. I'm uncomfortable with the notion that we all should have to "agree" with his religion to make reasonable room for him to observe his beliefs because that certainly isn't going to stop with "things we all agree are bad." I've heard some absolutely scathing opinions from people in midwestern states about Sun Dances, which sometimes may require up to a week once you figure in travel and depending on where you go to one.

It is just as likely that he expected the entire class to be separated to conform to his religion. Since Allah, or whoever, requires separation, it should absolutely be done. Remember the Boston Marathon bombers were largely motivated by US freedom

 

[xbuzzerx]

It is just as likely that he expected the entire class to be separated to conform to his religion.

That is utterly not supported by the story so stop making things up.

 

[Rolyo85]

That is utterly not supported by the story so stop making things up.

This is just another not-even-veiled attempt to tout the supremacy of western culture, as opposed to "primitive" ones like Islam...

 

[Vitamin]

It is just as likely that he expected the entire class to be separated to conform to his religion. Since Allah, or whoever, requires separation, it should absolutely be done. Remember the Boston Marathon bombers were largely motivated by US freedom

Once again, you make ridiculous assumptions about minority religions based on stereotypes that don't even exist. I'd be surprised if you could correctly indentify a mouse because it wouldn't look like Walt Disney's caricature of one.

Of course Islam, even in radical form, doesn't support the complete separation of men and women. How do you think Bin Laden met his 15 or however many wives he had?

I know it can be tough sometimes, but try thinking Ben. Your life will be better if you do.

 

[Benvolio]

Once again, you make ridiculous assumptions about minority religions based on stereotypes that don't even exist. I'd be surprised if you could correctly indentify a mouse because it wouldn't look like Walt Disney's caricature of one.

Of course Islam, even in radical form, doesn't support the complete separation of men and women. How do you think Bin Laden met his 15 or however many wives he had?

I know it can be tough sometimes, but try thinking Ben. Your life will be better if you do.

Ben Ladin did not meet his wives attending college.

 

[xbuzzerx]

>Insert baseless assumptions based off stereotypes

>Continue giving off-topic examples of stereotype to justify prejudice

 

[palbert]

A 2-paragraph story has been transformed into an ongoing sociology screed.

PM me when we have some facts.

 

[Kulindahr]

There is one problem with the professor's reasoning: many customs, observances and practices of other cultures may separate gender and it does not carry with it any inherent belief that the separation must stem because women are "inferior." In many cultural and religious practices there are gender roles but they fit within a certain cosmology or spiritual belief system about what each gender is best at doing--- not that men and women must be separated because men are better.

However, if the issue is that the student believes his beliefs do not allow him to interact with women whatsoever, then like you I question why he was attending a co-ed university in the first place.

More or less true, but one has to take into consideration the content of the religious belief. If it's because women are considered inferior, or property, such a belief must not be honored.

Of course Islam, even in radical form, doesn't support the complete separation of men and women. How do you think Bin Laden met his 15 or however many wives he had?

He went to the local wife shop, of course.

 

[palbert]

This is just another not-even-veiled attempt to tout the supremacy of western culture, as opposed to "primitive" ones like Islam...

How then do you characterize a culture and society Alexander the Great would recognize?

 

[xbuzzerx]

More or less true, but one has to take into consideration the content of the religious belief. If it's because women are considered inferior, or property, such a belief must not be honored.

I would not necessarily agree that allowing a student who made a written request in advance for some kind of special alternate arrangement indicates the school "honoring" the reason for which he needed the alteration. And I also think it's arbitrary to say we will observe these requests only when we collectively judge that the belief behind them is valid-- by many perspectives none of them are, including Christian ones.

 

[maxpowr9]

I'll use the "slippery slope" argument this once. If it happens for one of his classes, it happens for ALL his classes: that's how "accommodations" work. If it doesn't, boot the student out for academic dishonesty.

 

[Vitamin]

More or less true, but one has to take into consideration the content of the religious belief. If it's because women are considered inferior, or property, such a belief must not be honored.

I would not necessarily agree that allowing a student who made a written request in advance for some kind of special alternate arrangement indicates the school "honoring" the reason for which he needed the alteration. And I also think it's arbitrary to say we will observe these requests only when we collectively judge that the belief behind them is valid-- by many perspectives none of them are, including Christian ones.

The problem as I see is we are given so little information about this person it seems we are unable to judge whether or not his beliefs are valid. Is this some new religion in Canada? A Christian sect? Muslim? How we supposed to judge whether or not these religious beliefs are legitimate if we don't even know what the alleged religion is?

 

[Benvolio]

The problem as I see is we are given so little information about this person it seems we are unable to judge whether or not his beliefs are valid. Is this some new religion in Canada? A Christian sect? Muslim? How we supposed to judge whether or not these religious beliefs are legitimate if we don't even know what the alleged religion is?

You, of course, are correct.