Alternate view of Columbus Day

[PreTTy PeTe]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

LOL, I don't know if I'd try saying that to an Israeli though.

my doctor told me that and his parents were survivors of the death camps.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

any century awsum public can get off butt ans ya nose

lord

 

[Benvolio]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

" The truth is, their lives were pretty miserable."

Did somebody actually just say that?

So, now it's a matter of putting people out of their misery?

UNbelievable.

You are twisting what was said.

 

[cgymike]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

He didn't discover the United States, either.



I'm not condemning him. I've not denied his accomplishment. I simply don't believe he should be celebrated without being remembered for (or being taught about) the evil things he did to feed his greed.

CC didn't discover anything IMO. He was a fraud. Why would anyone celebrate around him. But I may buy some Columbus salami. I think it's on sale now.

Then I can start a thread "I just stuffed a whole dry salami up my arse"

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

You are twisting what was said.

But he was pretty much on the right track as far as what you were saying.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

By no means do I think that American students comprehensively received "a more accurate picture" of Columbus later on in their educations. Most probably never even broached the subject again after elementary school.

The 'farthest' we got in high school was learning that he kept slaves when he was "given" lands in the New World -- nothing about how he treated them, nothing about the diseases.

I'm younger than you are, I was educated in California and did not learn a single negative thing about him until I read a college level book that was not part of my required reading. So your assumption would be far from universally true. And our education system does precisely the same thing with Father Junipero Serra-- I didn't have the faintest idea from a California education that he had anything but the best interests of Natives at heart. I didn't learn about how he sewed up tribal elders in the carcasses of bulls and had the solders leave the carcass in the desert to cook people alive for refusing to convert.

I never learned that until I read a book about all the lies passed on as "education" in our schools.

 

[cgymike]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

The 'farthest' we got in high school was learning that he kept slaves when he was "given" lands in the New World -- nothing about how he treated them, nothing about the diseases.



I never learned that until I read a book about all the lies passed on as "education" in our schools.

California has supposedly one of the worst primary education systems out there. Might as well be Zimbabwe...

 

[Latimer]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

1491: New Revelations of the New World Before Columbus by Charles Mann contains a good deal of material that challenges the common characterization of native Americans as naive and helpless against the European colonizers. Indigenous tribes are shown to have entered into alliances with the European settlers to pursue perceived advantages against rival tribes, the most famous being that brought about by Cortes in his campaign to destroy the Aztec empire.

 

[palbert]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

It wasn't heroic. That's a fallacy. The concept of a round Earth arose over 2 1/2 thousand years ago. It was proved about 300 years later.

Columbus and all of his crew knew very well that there was no 'edge of the earth' to fall off of.

I have maps and atlases that have the earth as flat. With edges.

The first alleged circumnavigation was 1519 - 1522. Until then no one knew anything.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

Columbus and all of his crew knew very well that there was no 'edge of the earth' to fall off of.

Columbus for certain -- his crew, not so much.

 

[bankside]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

I have maps and atlases that have the earth as flat. With edges.

The first alleged circumnavigation was 1519 - 1522. Until then no one knew anything.

Depends on who you ask as to who knew what and when. The catholic theocrats in control of Europe were not exactly careful custodians of classical wisdom. A lot of information was suppressed in the name of piety during the dark ages. So while the ancient Greeks might have known, and the scholars of the contemporary Islamic caliphates might have known, I wouldn't bet it was understood when Europe was under the thumb of the church. But I don't know, and/or can't remember the answer to what I recall being a fairly well researched question.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

1491: New Revelations of the New World Before Columbus by Charles Mann contains a good deal of material that challenges the common characterization of native Americans as naive and helpless against the European colonizers. Indigenous tribes are shown to have entered into alliances with the European settlers to pursue perceived advantages against rival tribes, the most famous being that brought about by Cortes in his campaign to destroy the Aztec empire.

Of course. Tribes were not without agency and intelligence. I don't think it's ever the tribal perspective implying that tribes were helpless.

 

[borg69unimatrix]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

I have maps and atlases that have the earth as flat. With edges.

The first alleged circumnavigation was 1519 - 1522. Until then no one knew anything.

Actually, the ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and very accurately determined it's size by measuring the shadow length of a set length of stick at high noon in several different locations in the Mediterranean area and Egypt.

I believe the earth became flat in the dark ages, once Christianity took hold.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

I have maps and atlases that have the earth as flat. With edges.

The first alleged circumnavigation was 1519 - 1522. Until then no one knew anything.

Actually the curvature of the earth had been measured, proving it was round. Columbus knew that; it was the basis of his voyage. Of course, his figure for the circumference was a bit off....

 

[palbert]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

Actually, the ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and very accurately determined it's size by measuring the shadow length of a set length of stick at high noon in several different locations in the Mediterranean area and Egypt.

Still, I'm not sure Terra and Mare Incognita don't trump Aristotelian sticks.

 

[Alnitak]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

One should rather ask "how could this not happen," as the histories of humanity repeat this chapter over and over.

The federal holiday was created in 1937, long before modern sensibilities began to reexamine Columbus and the conquistadors. Remember it was not until Kevin Costner made Dances With Wolves that Hollywood even made a positive portrayal of Native Americans.

The opportunity for the Holocaust happened because it came on the heels right after WWI. The "great powers" were jaded and slow to rise to the call due to the obvious futility of the carnage that was the Great War.

It is one thing to say that the rout of the indigenous Americans was inevitable, quite another to dismiss it or not use it as a touchstone to change our attitudes going forward.

Your ideas here don't really make any sense together as a coherent point. What exactly is your point?

As I said earlier, there is much I dislike personally about Native American culture, but I'd die just as quickly defending their rights as any culture here that I admire more.

You first.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

Still, I'm not sure Terra and Mare Incognita don't trump Aristotelian sticks.

LOL

True enough -- just because they (perhaps) knew they could sail around didn't mean they had a clue what was out there.

 

[Alnitak]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

LOL

True enough -- just because they (perhaps) knew they could sail around didn't mean they had a clue what was out there.

I doubt there weren't ancient European fisherman who found Labrador before the Vikings. Their archaeology is just undiscovered, and their legacy unrecorded. Even in the 16th century it wasn't uncommon for fishing vessels to venture out into Canadians waters, but in our schools' history textbooks, the travels of well publicized explorers is all that remains of Europeans on the East Coast until the Virginia colony.

 

[palbert]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

.... As I said earlier, there is much I dislike personally about Native American culture, but I'd die just as quickly defending their rights as any culture here that I admire more. Each one has its place, regardless of our admiration, dislike, or indifference.

Let's not get carried away.

Especially from someone now living alongside the desperate pueblos alongside the desolate New Mexican interstates.

What happened to the First Peoples is a disgrace. Offering to die for them will serve no purpose. Moving them out of a ghettoized existence will.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Why does Columbus have a holiday named after him? He wasn't a hero.

Let's not get carried away.

Especially from someone now living alongside the desperate pueblos alongside the desolate New Mexican interstates.

What happened to the First Peoples is a disgrace. Offering to die for them will serve no purpose. Moving them out of a ghettoized existence will.

Hear, Hear (I KNEW I got it wrong)

This is certainly more constructive as a way to get past the legacy we're all here discussing than a sentiment of "well, get with the program" and talking about Vikings or Celts. The legacy of the colonization of the Americas is still highly visible and tangible today, it's not something in the archaic past with no repercussions in the present.