Am I a Classical Liberal?

[kallipolis]

Jefferson plainly understood that liberty is more important than economics.

Unless you were one of his many slaves. Jefferson was colour blind.

 

[Kulindahr]

Economic liberty is most important af all.

That's a non-response.

But... if only the GOP understood that.

 

[Kulindahr]

Unless you were one of his many slaves. Jefferson was colour blind.

Please go back and read my post about Jefferson. He understood something about economics that the GOP does not: dumping people into poverty with no means to stand on their own is NOT liberty.

Here, I'll quote it for you -- Jefferson was....

A man who spent most of his life trying to figure out how to free his slaves without them falling immediately prey to people who kidnapped free blacks and sold them back into slavery -- to set the record straight. Further, he was the first to introduce a bill to eliminate importation of slaves, a bill to make all children born in America free citizens, to forbid slavery in any new territory acquired by the U.S., measures to encourage the planting of crops that did not need slaves, and more. His view was that maintaining slavery was like hanging onto “a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” He opposed federal abolition of slavery before slaves were given skills to support themselves.

 

[otters]

Economic liberty is most important af all.

That's a non-response.

But... if only the GOP understood that.

I guess Benvolio meant:

"Economic liberty is most important a fall."

 

[kallipolis]

Please go back and read my post about Jefferson. He understood something about economics that the GOP does not: dumping people into poverty with no means to stand on their own is NOT liberty.

Freedom should be for all human beings, no matter ones skin pigmentation.

All human beings have choices, when free to make choices.

The consequences of ones choices become ones responsibilities.

Jefferson thought otherwise, as well you know.

 

[TX-Beau]

Freedom should be for all human beings, no matter ones skin pigmentation.

All human beings have choices, when free to make choices.

The consequences of ones choices become ones responsibilities.

Jefferson thought otherwise, as well you know.

Yeah, Jefferson would probably agree with all three of those. Slavery was a contentious issue, Jefferson and Washington were part of the slave-holding class, both knew it was wrong, and was going to be a political showdown, and to neither's credit, instead of pushing the issue, they punted it down a few decades.

The FF's knew there was going to be a war over it, so they tabled the conversation and left it to their kids and grand-kids. I suspect there would not be a United States had Congress tried to outlaw slavery. The South would have immediately withdrawn, and the North would not have possessed the resources to stop it, like they had a century later.

 

[Kulindahr]

Freedom should be for all human beings, no matter ones skin pigmentation.

All human beings have choices, when free to make choices.

The consequences of ones choices become ones responsibilities.

Jefferson thought otherwise, as well you know.

I know that Jefferson tried to write an end to slavery into the Declaration of Independence, which contradicts your claim. As I said, Jefferson was

A man who spent most of his life trying to figure out how to free his slaves without them falling immediately prey to people who kidnapped free blacks and sold them back into slavery -- to set the record straight. Further, he was the first to introduce a bill to eliminate importation of slaves, a bill to make all children born in America free citizens, to forbid slavery in any new territory acquired by the U.S., measures to encourage the planting of crops that did not need slaves, and more. His view was that maintaining slavery was like hanging onto “a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” He opposed federal abolition of slavery before slaves were given skills to support themselves.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, Jefferson would probably agree with all three of those. Slavery was a contentious issue, Jefferson and Washington were part of the slave-holding class, both knew it was wrong, and was going to be a political showdown, and to neither's credit, instead of pushing the issue, they punted it down a few decades.

The FF's knew there was going to be a war over it, so they tabled the conversation and left it to their kids and grand-kids. I suspect there would not be a United States had Congress tried to outlaw slavery. The South would have immediately withdrawn, and the North would not have possessed the resources to stop it, like they had a century later.

They had a choice: turn all Americans into de facto slaves of the British Crown and the East India Company, or take the first step toward ending slavery.

To their credit, they took the proper step.

 

[Benvolio]

Oh, i am sure most of the slave owners found some way to covince themselves that they were doing right by the slaves in owning them.

 

[TX-Beau]

Being taxed unfairly isn't the same thing as being owned like a cow. The first is reprehensible, the second is obscenity.

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh, i am sure most of the slave owners found some way to covince themselves that they were doing right by the slaves in owning them.

Of course they did, just like you say you're doing the right thing by their descendants by hating on Mexicans.

 

[Kabluey]

Economic liberty is most important af all.

No.
Liberty is important.

Economic liberty is a subset of that.
There's less freedom to get rich in the US than in half the countries you decry as being socialist dystopias now days. The very policies and rules you resist are the same that make much of the rest of the developed world more free.

 

[kallipolis]

I know that Jefferson tried to write an end to slavery into the Declaration of Independence, which contradicts your claim.

While retaining ownership of his slaves including fathering a few additional slaves adding to his wealth.

In other words don't do as I do, do as I say.

 

[Kulindahr]

No.
Liberty is important.

Economic liberty is a subset of that.
There's less freedom to get rich in the US than in half the countries you decry as being socialist dystopias now days. The very policies and rules you resist are the same that make much of the rest of the developed world more free.

Yes. The GOP desires economic freedom only for those who can afford to buy politicians.

 

[Kulindahr]

While retaining ownership of his slaves including fathering a few additional slaves adding to his wealth.

In other words don't do as I do, do as I say.

You are very good at totally ignoring what has been written.

It would have been impossible for Jefferson to free his slaves -- he had a conscience.

If all had done as he did, there would never have been a Civil War; slavery would have ended quietly around 1845.

 

[Benvolio]

You are very good at totally ignoring what has been written.

It would have been impossible for Jefferson to free his slaves -- he had a conscience.

If all had done as he did, there would never have been a Civil War; slavery would have ended quietly around 1845.

You are overlooking the fact that the development of the cotton gin made the ownership of slaves for cotton producers much more profitable. By the Civil War, the economics of slavery had changed significantly.

 

[kallipolis]

You are very good at totally ignoring what has been written.

It would have been impossible for Jefferson to free his slaves -- he had a conscience.

If all had done as he did, there would never have been a Civil War; slavery would have ended quietly around 1845.

Spin away....

...had Jefferson, and Washington during their life times...liberated their slaves, to employ them as paid labourers...their examples freeing their slaves, might well have led to the end of slavery throughout the new nation...and no Civil War.

 

[palemale]

Spin away....

...had Jefferson, and Washington during their life times...liberated their slaves, to employ them as paid labourers...their examples freeing their slaves, might well have led to the end of slavery throughout the new nation...and no Civil War.

More likely, had the founders pushed the issue of the abolition of slavery, our Southern states would have opted to remain part of the British Empire and the Northern States alone would not have been able to successfully break away from Britain. The economic importance of slavery in the Southern colonies, combined with the economic importance of slavery in the British West Indian colonies, may have forestalled Britain from abolishing slavery in the 1830s. Perhaps Britain would not have abolished slavery until much later, like Brazil did in the late 19th Century. We'll never know the answer.

We do know that Britain grew rich from textile manufacturing during the Industrial Revolution on the profits earned from producing cloth from cotton from the American South. Slavery was a despicable institution and will be a stain on our country forever. But there were few clean hands in the 19th Century when it came to slavery.

 

[Kulindahr]

You are overlooking the fact that the development of the cotton gin made the ownership of slaves for cotton producers much more profitable. By the Civil War, the economics of slavery had changed significantly.

I overlook nothing: if other had did as Jefferson did, there wouldn't have BEEN any slaves -- first, imports would have ended; then no one born in the U.S. would have been a save. So by 1845 there wouldn't have been any slaves left.

 

[Kulindahr]

Spin away....

...had Jefferson, and Washington during their life times...liberated their slaves, to employ them as paid labourers...their examples freeing their slaves, might well have led to the end of slavery throughout the new nation...and no Civil War.

If Jefferson and the rest had liberated their slaves at that time, they would have gone broke, the slaves would have been kidnapped and returned to slavery, and nothing would have changed except that Jefferson would likely not have become president.

It's no spin, it was economic reality.