Am I being unreasonable?

[juicyjack]

I've kinda been trying to date guys lately to see how I feel about it. I've been in relationships with women and have done sexual stuff with men. Now I want to see if I want to be with men. Anyway I've been talking to this guy I met online for a while. We had one date a few weeks ago and I think we hit it off pretty well. It wasn't like sparks flying or anything but it was good enough for me to try it again. He acted like he wanted to go out again but timing hasn't been right, either mine or his, so we haven't gone out again yet. A few weeks ago, he invited me to go to a trip to Chicago with him and his friends. I said I would be interested, but he didn't mention it after that. I thought the trip was just postponed. His grandpa died a week before and he had to go back home for the funeral, so I thought maybe it just wasn't gonna happen for a while. Anyway last week he calls and wants to go out on a date, but not til the following Friday, which is today. I was like sure but I asked him why not that weekend, and he made some lame excuse, saying he was just busy. A couple days later, I look on facebook and he posted these pics of him in Chicago. I don't care about him doing stuff without me, because we aren't a couple, but it's like he uninvited me. I thought ok, he's not interested in me, so I unfriended him on facebook and thought it was that. I was also kinda relieved because a part of me doesn't feel ready for a gay relationship and I was already losing interest. But Wednesday he calls and text me, asking where I've been. I didn't respond, then last night, he texted and asked if I forgot about our date, and saying when or if I was interested, he would be there. I don't know if I should talk to him. Is it unreasonable for me to stop talking to him based on this? I'm not sure what to do. I kinda like him and kinda don't. I don't see the relationship going very far anyway, but I don't want to be an ass about it. I would love to hear opinions.

 

[KaraBulut]

It's only a game when two people are playing it.

There's this whole tradition of guys and dating where they are always trying to find the perfect balance between calling too soon (or seeming too interested) or waiting too long to call (or seeming too uninterested).

All of this can be avoided by saying you'll call, saying when you will call, calling when you said you would call and making clear plans for when you're going out.

This guy may have some things going on but the subtle message that this guy is sending is "I'm busy with lots of things and dating/relationships is not high on my list of priorities".

And now, by not answering his messages and relying on the "I'm not sure that I want to date guys" excuse, you're also falling into the same dating games.

Return his message. Be honest. If the two of you can't make definite plans for a second date (where, when) then don't waste anymore time on this.

 

[juicyjack]

I see both of your points. I'm really in a weird position, and I'm still not comfortable in my sexuality. I just thought dating would help me realize if I should go be with men or if I should just be with women. I don't want to use anyone just for sex anymore so I wanted to see if I could have relationship feelings with men too. I'm starting to think I can't. I also don't like the way he makes me feel tho. He's 30 and I'm 23, so even tho the age difference isn't huge, he acts like he wants to teach me stuff and change me. His last relationship was with a guy my age and I think this could be a pattern for him. Idk, maybe I'm overthinking things. I guess I'm not really interested in him AND I'm not ready. And I don't want a clingy relationship at all, so if he wants to go on trips or hang out with his friends without me, I'm all for it, I just don't understand why he invited me in the first place, if he didn't want me around. I guess i should just tell him I can't deal with any of this and it's my fault too.

 

[TX-Beau]

He's a flake. Move along, nothing to see here.

Clue for the future, guys speak a hell of a lot louder with what they do, than with what they actually say. If the two don't match, what he's doing is the truth.

He can say he wants to go out till the stars fall, but if you never do.....

I've never pursued I guy I actually wanted and been that flaky.

What Kara was saying about game playing, yeah, guys do that. Usually younger guys. Don't. it's a good way to fuck up things. Be honest, with yourself and him, don't have unreasonable expectations of guys you just met, start with having fun - only - the serious stuff will take care of itself down the line. Most importantly, don't delude yourself into thinking that every guy (or girl) you go out with MUST be the "one."

 

[juicyjack]

He's a flake. Move along, nothing to see here.

Clue for the future, guys speak a hell of a lot louder with what they do, than with what they actually say. If the two don't match, what he's doing is the truth.

He can say he wants to go out till the stars fall, but if you never do.....

I've never pursued I guy I actually wanted and been that flaky.

What Kara was saying about game playing, yeah, guys do that. Usually younger guys. Don't. it's a good way to fuck up things. Be honest, with yourself and him, don't have unreasonable expectations of guys you just met, start with having fun - only - the serious stuff will take care of itself down the line. Most importantly, don't delude yourself into thinking that every guy (or girl) you go out with MUST be the "one."

I got that but trust me, I'm not even looking for "the one" at all. I'm not even sure I want to be with men at all, like I said before. I have no expectations, just honesty. I just talked to him and I feel better, but I still am not sure how to handle things and I'm still not sure if I should continue anything. I don't want to hurt his feelings either.

 

[TX-Beau]

Well, you know, the fact that you went ahead and went out with a guy is a pretty strong indicator. Guys who don't want to date guys generally don't ever get that far.

This could be your own issues with yourself, or you might just not like that guy all that much. Who knows, only you can answer that. Lord knows the world is full of bisexual guys who are fine with fucking you, but won't ever bring you home to Momma - they only do THAT if you have a twat - and that's their issue about themselves.

Here's how you handle things. You don't want to pursue this guy - for whatever reason - you'll know you're ready when when you do pursue a guy, if ever. If you never find a guy you want that way, you have your answer. Let this lie until you are sure. There are a lot of guys out there you'll feel much more strongly about. Or you might never get there. Live your life, go out, have a good time, hang out with this guy if he ever finds the time for you, but let this lie for the time being. Do yourself a favor and lift the pressure off yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. There's no rush, you're very young. You have time.

Some general advice, don't ever misrepresent your interest level in someone - through omission or commission, because you don't want to hurt their feelings. It's not easy to let someone down, but not being honest isn't in any manner considerate, it's cowardice. By all means be considerate with how you go about it, but vacillating, ignoring, misrepresenting, hell, going along because you can't say it, only hurts both of you in the end.

 

[KaraBulut]

I'm really in a weird position, and I'm still not comfortable in my sexuality. I just thought dating would help me realize if I should go be with men or if I should just be with women. I don't want to use anyone just for sex anymore so I wanted to see if I could have relationship feelings with men too. I'm starting to think I can't.

These stories always remind me of those kids who go to the pool and stare at the bottom of the pool afraid to get in. Usually, once they get in the water, they have a good time and it's not nearly as bad and scary as they thought it would be. And too often, they're the same kids who don't want to get out of the pool when Mom says it's time to go home.

There's no magic wand that makes people overcome their fears about these things. Sometimes you just have to take the chance- sexually and emotionally - to figure out exactly where you will end up on the bi-straight-gay-o-meter of life.

But understand this- you are what you are. You can stand on the edge of the pool all you want but it's not going to change your sexual orientation. So, you have to ask yourself whether your fear is not about getting into the pool but instead your fear may be that you won't want to get out of the pool once you're in.

 

[juicyjack]

^Well I think I'm kinda already in the pool, I mean I may not be splashing around so the whole world will see me but I'm there. I've been with both sexes, and I'm clearly not straight, but I know I'm not gay 100%. I'm aware I'm bi and I overall know what I like. I just don't know in terms of relationships. I just don't want to "test" a guy out and use him in the process. That's another concern for me.

 

[TX-Beau]

If you're capable of being sexually aroused by men, you're capable of having emotions for them. I'm not talking about that horny straight boy who uses a conveniently offered orifice for what's basically advanced masturbation. I talking about guys who get off on guys.

What you do with that, deny it, or run with it, is pretty much what I think you're confused about. It's harder to have relationships with men because of all the phobic bullshit in society, the phobic bullshit in your own head, the fear of being ostracized, and a whole host of other things that cloud the issue when it comes to actually getting into a relationship with a guy.

If you already know you're bi, what is the difference between having a relationship with a guy, and having one with a girl?

One is sanctioned, easy, reinforced, and expected and welcomed by friends and family, one will cause questions, surprise (sometimes,) condemnation (sometimes), call into question your masculinity, for all of the reasons above.

One is easy, one is scary. How your respond to your attraction to men, is going to be driven - initially at least, by the attitudes you've got in your head about definitions of your masculinity, definitions about same sex relations, and your concern for how you will be perceived.

All other factors being absent, I suspect you do know in terms of relationships, and you're struggling with something else entirely.

So ask yourself, are you not sure, because you don't think two men can have a relationship? Or are you not sure because you're afraid of two men in a relationship?

Think about it.

 

[juicyjack]

If you're capable of being sexually aroused by men, you're capable of having emotions for them. I'm not talking about that horny straight boy who uses a conveniently offered orifice for what's basically advanced masturbation. I talking about guys who get off on guys.

What you do with that, deny it, or run with it, is pretty much what I think you're confused about. It's harder to have relationships with men because of all the phobic bullshit in society, the phobic bullshit in your own head, the fear of being ostracized, and a whole host of other things that cloud the issue when it comes to actually getting into a relationship with a guy.

If you already know you're bi, what is the difference between having a relationship with a guy, and having one with a girl?

One is sanctioned, easy, reinforced, and expected and welcomed by friends and family, one will cause questions, surprise (sometimes,) condemnation (sometimes), call into question your masculinity, for all of the reasons above.

One is easy, one is scary. How your respond to your attraction to men, is going to be driven - initially at least, by the attitudes you've got in your head about definitions of your masculinity, definitions about same sex relations, and your concern for how you will be perceived.

All other factors being absent, I suspect you do know in terms of relationships, and you're struggling with something else entirely.

So ask yourself, are you not sure, because you don't think two men can have a relationship? Or are you not sure because you're afraid of two men in a relationship?

Think about it.

I just have never seen myself with a guy in an emotional way. I've tried to see why that is and that's why I'm trying it now. Even if I did have a relationship with a man, I would keep it private. I know I will be judged on here by saying that but it's my life and that's how I feel about it. That being said, I don't feel the need to be scared of a homosexual relationship, because as long as certain people like my family and friends don't know, then I'm fine with it. I just can't imagine it myself. I don't see myself loving and protecting a man, like I can with a woman. I'm not sure I agree that just because I'm sexually attracted to men, then I can have a relationship with a man. Everyone is different. I think if I was talking about a relationship with a woman, and I was used to being in relationships with just men, I might get different advice. Every side has an agenda. Be gay or be straight. Either way, I can't just be me.

 

[KaraBulut]

^Well I think I'm kinda already in the pool, I mean I may not be splashing around so the whole world will see me but I'm there. I've been with both sexes, and I'm clearly not straight, but I know I'm not gay 100%. I'm aware I'm bi and I overall know what I like. I just don't know in terms of relationships. I just don't want to "test" a guy out and use him in the process. That's another concern for me.

Good.

The "pool" here is not just the sex part though, it's mostly the emotional part.

I just have never seen myself with a guy in an emotional way. I've tried to see why that is and that's why I'm trying it now. Even if I did have a relationship with a man, I would keep it private. I know I will be judged on here by saying that but it's my life and that's how I feel about it.

Getting emotionally involved is tough for a lot of guys- not just on the subject of gay relationships.

We get a lot of posts from guys who are bisexual and who have had emotional relationships with women but never with guys. Then they meet the right guy and it hits them like a ton of bricks. And it's pretty scary at first.

No judgment but it is hard to know where you are in all this if you continue to put tight borders around it. Just live your life and not to think so much about the plumbing of your partner.

 

[Hotswimguy82]

We get a lot of posts from guys who are bisexual and who have had emotional relationships with women but never with guys. Then they meet the right guy and it hits them like a ton of bricks. And it's pretty scary at first.

You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what happened to me. I constantly struggled with the unnevenness of my attraction; I liked girls emotionally but not sexually, and I liked guys sexually but not emotionally. Once I came across the right guy, it started a process of me realizing that I was gay and could actually have both sexual and emotional feelings for men.

 

[TX-Beau]

I just have never seen myself with a guy in an emotional way. I've tried to see why that is and that's why I'm trying it now. Even if I did have a relationship with a man, I would keep it private. I know I will be judged on here by saying that but it's my life and that's how I feel about it. That being said, I don't feel the need to be scared of a homosexual relationship, because as long as certain people like my family and friends don't know, then I'm fine with it. I just can't imagine it myself. I don't see myself loving and protecting a man, like I can with a woman. I'm not sure I agree that just because I'm sexually attracted to men, then I can have a relationship with a man. Everyone is different. I think if I was talking about a relationship with a woman, and I was used to being in relationships with just men, I might get different advice. Every side has an agenda. Be gay or be straight. Either way, I can't just be me.

Ok, this is pretty confused – that’s why you’re in here I know, and it’s also pretty conflicted. Let’s start with this, because it’s the easiest:

I'm not sure I agree that just because I'm sexually attracted to men, then I can have a relationship with a man. Everyone is different. I think if I was talking about a relationship with a woman, and I was used to being in relationships with just men, I might get different advice. Every side has an agenda. Be gay or be straight. Either way, I can't just be me.

Everyone is different, but you know, your situation isn’t rare, you’re not that different. A whole lot of us have been through exactly what you’re struggling with and said exactly what you’re saying. It’s common for guys who are just starting to discuss this to get a little defensive about because it is scary.

So instead of saying there is an “agenda,” which doesn’t track anyway since none of us know you or have any kind of vested interest in you or your life – you might consider that those of us in here are saying what we’re saying for no other reason than we’ve been there. I don’t care what you do or who you date. Knock yourself out. What I’m saying, I’m saying because I recognize the quandary you’re in. You are going to do what you are going to do, we can’t change that, hell, I bet no one in here is even interested in trying. It doesn’t matter to any of us if you are gay, straight, bi or whatever.

The only thing that’s happening here is that you asked for advice, and we’re trying to give you the benefit of our experience.


OK.

Even if I did have a relationship with a man, I would keep it private. I know I will be judged on here by saying that but it's my life and that's how I feel about it. That being said, I don't feel the need to be scared of a homosexual relationship, because as long as certain people like my family and friends don't know, then I'm fine with it

This – whether you know it or not, is the crux of the issue. It’s a contradiction. You’re not scared of a gay relationship as long as you can hide it. Problem is, that being scared of a gay relationship, is WHY you hide it. Specifically fear of condemnation, and fear of being perceived as less of a man. That’s the closet in a nutshell. Some guys go through their whole lives like that, only you can decide of that’s how you want to play this.

I just can't imagine it myself. I don't see myself loving and protecting a man, like I can with a woman.

This fairly screams archetypal hetero-normative sex role paradigm - in other words, the little woman and the stoic MALE protector. This attitude probably means you have some rigid ideas about how masculinity and relationships are defined, ideas that came from society and family, which probably also means dating other guys is not part of that in any kind of way. This is EXTREMELY common for us same sex attracted guys. You can rationalize fucking men, because guys are horny, but that doesn’t MEAN anything, so long as you never kiss them. That will end the fucking world and turn you into a flaming faggot. We'll skip the why of it for the moment, I'll just point out that those kinds of socially imposed boundaries affect all of us. OF COURSE, it's going to affect you. Just know, that just because they are there, doesn't mean they are right. You said you are an individual, what kind of individual are you?

What can’t be justified, is being emotionally bonded to a guy, because your definition of masculinity forbids gay emotions for being effeminate, and emasculating.

“…Guys are for fucking, women are for relationships…”

One can’t reconcile dating a man, because that means you aren’t one on some level.

Whether you realize it or not, or will admit it or not, this stuff is all tied up in what you’re doing with guys, sexually or otherwise, and just like all the guys who’ve gone down this road before you, you’re going to have to decide.

Consider this; you can’t have the closet and a real relationship with a guy both. Listen to any of us who’ve tried this, it ends badly. Why? Because hiding the guy you love from everyone else, puts a wall between you and him, it puts a wall between you and friends and family, requires you to be dishonest.

So what do you do? You’re not in a position to be a good relationship prospect for a guy at this point anyway. It’s not fair to the guy to expect him to be your dirty little secret – and yeah, that’s what that amounts to.

So, relax, step back, have a good time, and give yourself some space. It took me several years to work out that being with a man didn’t make me less of one, and if people don't like that - I don't give a fuck. I refuse to live my life on someone else's terms.

And you know what, the grass is way fucking greener over here. I’m not at war with myself anymore.

 

[texan_slant]

Sure, maybe he disinvited you to go to Chicago, but it can also be taken completely out of context. Move on without bringing up the Chicago incident, cuz it's not like either of you touched based again to confirm. Maybe he was waiting for YOU to bring it up again and/or confirm as you got closer to the engagement. You said that you thought the trip was postponed since he never brought it up, though it was still an assumption on your part. Nonetheless, this all sounds like a mis- or non-communication.

Regardless, he STILL asked you out, and you ignored it, which is still a missed opportunity. He also followed-up asking if you were still interested.

I'd say, if you were in the slightest bit interested, don't pass it up.

 

[juicyjack]

TX-Beau, with all due respect, you are way over analyzing me to the point where it is both odd an patronizing. I'm not sure if you meant to do that or not. No I'm not wanting to shout my sexual orientation from the rooftops. However I don't feel I need to in order to be "free". I'm a private person in general, not just about this issue. I've also never described myself as just a "horny guy" or anything like "using men for fucking, women for babies" or any of that nonsense. I find that generalization of me and other bisexuals offensive. I never have tried to sugar-coat my sexual preference or act like I'm basically straight or just curious. I'm a bisexual man and I do intimate things with men, not just using a man as a hole. If that's all it was, I would just have sex with women. I don't know if I will ever be into men in terms of a long-term love or not. Maybe, maybe not. However I haven't had any real desire for it. I felt pressured to try it because I felt bad about using people for sex and sex alone. I'm in an odd position. Not trying to paint myself as so unique because I've always believed there were others like me, in positions just like mine. Not only do I like both men and women sexually, but I also have things I don't like doing. I don't bottom, or suck dick. Not because doing these things somehow make me more gay, but I'm not turned on by it. I've sucked dick several times, and it doesn't do anything for me. Never wanted to receive anal sex either. Just a sexual preference, no need to read anything more into that. I just know this will limit me in terms of relationships with men. it already has sexually. That and the fact that I'm bi. If you think I'm defensive, it is because I've had to deal with so much criticism about how I feel and my own opinions have been considered wrong so many times, including now. I've had other conversations with people who don't know me,and supposedly have no agenda, yet want to sum me up as a self-loathing gay guy who can't accept reality, and then push the embracing my "gay side" and not even mention the fact that I'm bisexual, like it doesn't exist or that it only exists if you're a girl and in college or something. It has gotten old fast. With women, I like doing everything, but I feel like there are things about men I miss when I'm exclusively with a woman. I think a little bit more about men sexually. I sometimes feel like I can't be with anyone. Not sure if that will change but I have a lot to figure out, like I said before. This doesn't mean I need a lecture of how to be gay. I would be interested in hearing sound advice like some that has been posted on here and maybe some experiences, particularly from other bisexuals. Thanks everyone for the posts.

 

[matt1980111]

Ok, here's the thing. None of us actually know you. We haven't spent time with you, we haven't had conversations with you...nothing. So all we have to go on comes from your multiple posts.

And since that's all we have to go on, I think TX-Beau is 100% right. I think you need to give his replies a re-read. Because it appears to be pretty accurate.

You say you feel like people are trying to force you to embrace your gay side...well, isn't that the entire point behind your post? You want to explore a relationship with a man, right? A gay relationship with a man, right?

It appears to me that your apparent distate for what TX-Beau has posted comes from the fact that he's hit too damn close to the heart of the matter.

You came here for advice. You've received just that...good advice. Not a lecture.

 

[juicyjack]

^I was asking about if I was being unreasonable in the relationship, hence the title. I just wanted to be able to give the full background of myself. And since you don't know me, then I don't see how assumptions of me are supposed to be accurate. Yes I wanted to explore my gay side TOO, not get rid of my identity in the process. And the point of my last post to TX-Beau and similarly minded people is was because it is a shitty thing to do to judge people and sum them up in sweeping statements. That's what gays have been fighting against since the beginning of time, yet some seem to do that to bisexuals. Apparently from the attitude of your post Matt, I must have hit to damn close to heart too.

I know I'm in an open forum looking for advice, but I don't think I should be patronized for being open about myself, which let's be honest, is exactly what is happening now.

 

[matt1980111]

No, you didn't get 'too close to heart'. What you did was get defensive. There's a difference.

No one's judging you. You asked for honest help and that's what you got. Now it's pissing you off. You can't have it both ways. Don't ask for help and then get mad because it's not what you wanted to hear.

You wanted someone to tell you that his foolish notion of attempting to explore your gay side (without actually doing any exploring) will work. And it will not work.

You want to know if you were being unreasonable in your attempt at a relationship with this guy? It's simple. Yes.

So, I have a solution for you. Leave men alone and strictly deal with women. You know you can have an actual relationship with a woman. But you don't think you can have anything other than sexual contact with men. Why even try?

 

[TX-Beau]

Sugar, here's the deal. the only one judging you is yourself. I don't care. You however are doing a great deal of amount of judging the rest of us. I don't care about that either.

But it remains, that if you'd actually payed attention to what I was saying, instead of going off about it, you'd see that in pretty much every post, I suggested that you NOT try to go out and be gay, that you DON'T go there unless you're sure.

Advice is like clothes, if it doesn't fit, you put it back and try something else. You don't have a fit because a particular shirt doesn't work for you, nor do you start accusing the salesperson of trying to make you wear it. That's just silly, and over-reaction is just going to make people think you're sensitive about it.

And it's rude. Ninety-nine percent of what you're ranting about came out of your own head. If you misunderstand, or aren't sure about something, I'll be happy to try and clarify. All you have to do is ask.

You know, I don't care about your identity, I don't care who you fuck or how you fuck them. I don't care what you want to stick in your mouth, I don't care if you ever ever have sex again. You're just pixels on a screen in here. So please, spare me the pointless diatribe about agenda and how put upon and persecuted you are. You're not so important that I'd go to that effort.

The other thing I was saying, is that you are not that different. I said exactly what you said, even down to your diatribe, and I am by no means the only one. There was nothing original in the situation you presented or the accusations you made. A whole lot of us said exactly the same thing.

Some of us are gay, some of us are bi, some of us never go farther than where you are now. Why did I tell you that, why did I go into it at all? Because I thought you might like to know that you're not alone, and what you're feeling is pretty normal.

I'm sure you're going to interpret that as some kind of judgement on you and attempt to make you gay, but it isn't, all I'm trying to do is give you some perspective, and hopefully a different viewpoint from which to consider your own situation.

Make of that what you will.

 

[juicyjack]

I was simply asking if I was unreasonable about a particular situation with a guy I've been talking to, not about what I should do about my sexuality. So if anyone wanted to give me advice about anything else, they could have given me a private message instead of the routes that were chosen. Regardless I read and I felt offended. If that wasn't the intent, then it wasn't the intent. However that's how I saw it. That doesn't mean I misread. People read so much extra into my initial question, that doesn't mean I'm going to patronize anyone for that. I expect the same in return.

Matt1980, through the rude reply of assumptions, I did get one thing out of it. I do need to ask myself why I'm even bothering. I don't know, but I'll try to figure it out. It's a good question. Thank you for that much.

Tx-Beau, I never saw anywhere where you said I shouldn't try this, or basically anything of what you said you said in your last post. Matt did, not you. You only made assumptions of me as someone who was in denial. Even now you are spinning your odd, over-analysis of me back on me, and acted as though you were trying to help. However you offered no real advice. That's the reality of it.

I am fine with admitting when I'm wrong. I probably was unreasonable in my attitude towards the guy I've been seeing. I was looking for an excuse to not deal with him. I wasn't right in that, and that part is not fair to him. I can handle advice, hence the fact that I didn't negatively respond to the other posters, even though they weren't in 100% agreement with me. However I wasn't offended by what they were saying. I wasn't pissed off at anyone, just offended. Note the difference.

I don't feel the need to do anything else with this thread, as it's not even a real issue any more. So no one really needs to say anything else. I won't.