America... what do you think?

[Chalchalero]

Your God damn right, that many of us care about this country!

Our families worked hard to make it what it is. It didn't happen over night.

The Europeans look down their nose at us, and call our loved one's everything under the sun. I know, as I read their newspapers, and see it first hand, for myself.

I read the European press as well. France: Le Monde, Le Figaro, Le Nouvel Observateur, Le Point, Libération, Le Parisen; Germany: Der Spiegel, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung Die Welt; Switzerland; Tribune de Genève, Tribune des Droits Humains, Basler Zeitung, Bieler Tagblatt, NZZ; Austria: der Standard, Kurier, Die Presse; Spain; El Periódico, El Pais, Heraldo de Aragón, El Mundo Dinero, Europa Press; Italy: Corriere della Sera, Osservatorio sulla legalità, Il Messaggero...

I have to say that in all of my reading, I have never come across any journalist or editorial looking down their noses or calling anyone names. I would be delighted if you could please cite for me a few examples, as for you it seems to be so widespread...

Please do not be shy in pointing them out to me as I read in Spanish, French, German and Italian. I will be able to read and understand whatever you cite for me. I look forward to it in fact...

 

[Chalchalero]

We can only hope that a better president will be the next man in charge of your country... But the elections of 2004 have made me a bit disillusioned with the American voters

Me too...I am holding a wait and see attitude for the moment.

 

[Chalchalero]

Wow. Thanks for all the posts everyone. It seems I have started an interesting discussion. I want to take this time to thank everyone for their input on this topic and saying some things that we should all be thinking about, which I guess we are . However, I would like to add that I have noticed some aggression on this thread and if you’re not mature enough to take/give criticism in a healthy manner then don't reply. I am here trying to get a perspective on what others think about this country. Do I think this country is the BEST as so many put it... No... at least not for myself. But do I think this country is the worst country in the world... definitely not. For some country A maybe the best for others country B. It all depends on ideology and a number of other factors. That being said let me get to my question after reading the responses.

One thing that I have noticed was that many people still quote opportunity as a strong like about America. What kind of opportunity? The opportunity to live a peaceful life? The opportunity for an education? The opportunity to start a small business and slowly crush your competitors or who ever stands in your way (ah capitalism)? My main question is "Is there not opportunity (the good kind not the intense capitalist kind) elsewhere as well?" The image that I've been sent since I was little was that people come from all across the world to come to America and essential ONLY America because America is the "land of opportunity". In your home country do you have the same propaganda? Do people come to your country looking for a better life because something tells me America is not the ONLY country where people go to.

Not at all. That is the reason there are so many people opposed to the EU from within. Spain, Italy, Greece and France have been fighting off invasions of African illegals arriving on their shores for years. The French are angry that the Polish and other Eastern European new member states will come in and take their jobs. The Dutch have a former Minister for Immigration who, while in office was as anti immigration as anyone could be. Switzerland's right wing party gained over twenty percent of the vote recently thanks in part to a very racist poster wherein they indicated keeping a black sheep out of the fold (i.e: country).

There are many people who go to Europe rather than come to the US, mainly because they will find others who speak their language and know their culture. Also many wish to be able to return to their own countries. America is the main destination for Latin Americans perhaps, but no longer for Europeans or even Africans or Middle Easterners, I do not believe.

 

[RationalLunacy]

We can only hope that a better president will be the next man in charge of your country... But the elections of 2004 have made me a bit disillusioned with the American voters

Trust me when I tell you that many Americans feel as you do.

I am one of them.

 

[Chalchalero]

A lot. They are scattered all throughout this board. People seem to have the idea America is the biggest perpetrator of racism and inequality in the world. Which is complete bullshit. If you bother to visit the country, and no not just New York and California, you will see we are probably less racist or inequal than your country, but who are they to listen to people who actually live in the country?

I do live in this country (for half of the year), and have lived here for over twenty five years. I am a person of colour. I endure racism in this country all too frequently. I am pleased for your optimism and faith in your country. That is good and necessary. But do not live in a bubble and pretend that racism does not exist because it does. It may be 'shaming' as one poster put it to be racist, but it is not illegal. Nor is it eradicated.

You live in Texas. What was the name of the black man dragged to his death by some yokels who tied him to the back of a pick up truck? What about the Jena controversy in Louisiana? What about the perception of many blacks in New Orleans that they were ignored during and after Katrina because the Bush Administration and America do not care about black people? What about the hateful racist rantings of the Minute Men who couch their bigotry in "national security" and protecting the borders, when in reality the majority of them are in truth just ignorant racist xenophobes? What about the Crown Heights riots in New York, or the young man who was chased to his death by a pack of angry white kids in Howard Beach?

I really could go on and on and on...

I am not saying that racism is institutionalised in this country anymore. Thankfully that is no longer the case. But there are people (and a great many more than will admit to it in mixed company) who are still filled with hatred and fear of those who are unlike them in any way. I certainly did not say racism does not exist in Europe. What I am saying is that in America it is hiding, but it is still there. And pretending that it is not does not make it go away.

 

[_AJ_]

A lot. They are scattered all throughout this board. People seem to have the idea America is the biggest perpetrator of racism and inequality in the world. Which is complete bullshit. If you bother to visit the country, and no not just New York and California, you will see we are probably less racist or inequal than your country, but who are they to listen to people who actually live in the country?

i meant in this thread there was about one or 2 lines way back and you have been fanning the flames ever since
you have also made up things to bitch about to like this

no one said this

there are homless in every country, why does americag get picked on for it?

what they dont show is the homeless have access to homeless shelters, and i know in my state we have the Texas workforce which works to put people in jobs. No matter you level of education.

What you find is most homeless refuse to go to a homeless shelter, or are nothing but panhandlers and go back to their house once their done bumming on the street

you seem to be on the warpath and wont allow anyone to have an opinion different to your own ironic that the picture you are painting for everyone to see is confirming alot of what i thought about Americans

 

[Chalchalero]

By focusing--in Grand Guignol detail--on racism in America (you have mentioned it several times) you're implying that it doesn't exist at the same level elsewhere. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

As I have said, the Brits have their "wogs", the Australians their "bloody Abos", and the anti-Semitism is so bad in Eastern Europe that I don't feel comfortable telling you the things I've heard said.

Focusing on racism in just America doesn't seem ethically right, Chal; yes, there's racism in America--of which many of us Americans are ashamed--but youthful people have no idea of the vast gains we have made. Why, now we have a realistic shot at an African-American president!! Fifty short years ago "colored" people had to use their own restroom. I think we all ought to count our blessings.

I mentioned it once and then found myself having to clarify my position. But you have also mentioned anti-Semitism several times. I am not aware of such a thing as you have stated that you experienced this in Eastern Europe, as I do not live or visit there, and as I do not have any Jewish friends to tell me of their own experiences.

I did not wish to focus on racism. And I certainly was not aiming for any Grand Guignol extremes in characterisation. I simply believe that it is mis-representative of the country when people believe and want others to believe that racism has been eradicated when it has not.

I apologise if this offends anyone, as that is not my intention.

 

[Chalchalero]

Chal, I don't think very many Americans would be willing to entertain the notion that racism doesn't exist; of course it does.

But to parade America's racism is to diminish its very real, palpable progress in that area. As we have already noted, "colored" people once had to use their own restrooms, and were barred from many hotels. Now, we have an African-American Secretary of State, we had Colin Powell, and I truly believe we will finally have an African-American president. That's monumental progress, Chal; I only wish we Americans would get credit for it.

Racism in America seems to be shifting its focus to some degree. The vast amount of immigration from Latin America has effected changes in our economy that aren't always welcome, so I believe racism towards Latinos is growing....

I am detecting a tiny bit of defensiveness here. I am not attempting to "parade" anything. My first comment on racism came up in response to another poster's idyllic vision of peaceful happy schoolchildren mixing together without regard to race colour or creed. I simply pointed out that this is not the case everywhere in this country. You took offense to my listing of examples, but the fact is that just because a truth is unpleasant does not make it any less true.

I am thrilled that there have been so many positive steps made in this regard. I really am. But my fear is that, while we are discussing top-tier changes, there are still a great many of those "hard-working white Americans" closer to the bottom tiers to which Senator Clinton appealed, who are not quite so enlightened and open minded.

They are still out there and they form a pretty huge majority in large swathes of this country. Those are the ones who make me very nervous, and whom I will never forget no matter how rosy and idyllic a picture others wish to paint for me.

 

[Chalchalero]

Chal, good buddy, I'm not trying to single you out; really, I'm not. Charges of racism in America come from Europeans and other non-Americans on a regular basis as a way to beat us up; it bothers me immensely. Your posts were only an example--one opinion among many millions.

I'm merely suggesting that for those Europeans to entertain such a notion is not only minimizing the very real, sometimes horrifying racism in their own country, while parading America's racism, on which we have made dramatic strides of progress that don't seem to be noticed.

America, like all countries, will probably never eradicate its racism. There are hated minorities in every country, some of which don't seem to make sense to foreigners. Remember the "troubles" in Northern Ireland? They were busting knee-caps and murdering their own countrymen over religion. (The Irishmen will insist that it was really about economics, but I ask you: what were the ties that bonded those people into two groups? RELIGION!) Let's not forget how gay people are despised almost everywhere.

Focusing on color racism in America is probably natural for a man of color, but please remember--no matter where you are in the World, you'll be hated for some reason by somebody.

I do not disagree with you. Sadly it is human nature to fear or hate someone - anyone! As long as there are differences between people there will always be one form of bigotry or another. And as you say, it is all over, including Europe.

 

[dodo2761]

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blrevocation_cleese.htm

 

[jimbill]

I think you can look at America best through our 2-party system.

It's really good versus evil.

It depends on who's in charge. People will perceive us as our president is portrayed in the world media. Bush is starting to be held accoutable for the ugly things he did since Democrats took over our Congress. They don't have enough votes to treat him like he should be treated.

When Bill Clinton was in office, people liked us. People, including myself, thought we were mostly a positive influence in the world. George Bush took power and then 9-11 happened. A bad mix. He was ignorant, and we all over-reacted because we thought we would never be hit here at that level.

Obama offers us hope, but America has race issues. Would Australia elect an aborgine? England an Indian?

If McCain wins, expect more confrontation in the Middle East and less rights for gays. Expect status quo.

Democrats are for helping minorities play on an even field and the less well off get a fair share by increasing taxes, mostly on the wealthy. They respect the UN more and value diplomacy. They are for the workers instead of big business.

Republicans are for individuals helping themselves. As if racism will fix itself. They want to make us isolationist, except for free trade.

There are good and bad everywhere. America is split down the middle between people who get it and those who, although some may appear friendly, don't get it.

 

[_AJ_]

gotta love how no australian has said about american racisim and yet were dumped in as ignorant and racist very nice but the silly thing is the parallel drawn is not at all apt would america elect a native american would be the parrallel to an aboriginal

but there is no way to tell because there are not any of these people running in the major parties love the way you are all superior no because you might elect someone who isn't a old white guy

yep we are about as racist here as the US hell most of the rest of the world but i dont think it would stop anyone from electing the best person for the job to office i mean melbournes mayor is extremely popular and he is Asian and speaks with a big accent

 

[rareboy]

There is much about America to love. The vast majority of its citizens are welcoming and good. There used to be more freedom; maybe that will return again.

Its great cities and small towns are a wonder to behold.

It has created wonderful parks and preserves because of the largesse of its robber barons and the simple will of the people.

America is going through a bad patch right now and all her real friends are sorry for her, but if she doesn't snap out of it by November and get into a relationship with a better guy, we're going to bitch slap her until next tuesday.

 

[Chalchalero]

You know, I am one of those "hardworking white Americans,closer to the bottom tier to which Senator Clinton appealed" a lifelong Democrat I'll add,and I'm getting real tired of "enlightened" people like you insinuating everyone who isnn't enthralled with Senator Obama is a racist..

I'm plenty open minded, but not open minded enough to vote (at least in the primaries)for a man whom I don't feel is qualified in the least for the job.

I guess two terms of Bush has ground into a paste, any enthusiasm I might have had for incompetents holding the Nations highest office..

I also don't buy into the "hope and change" rhetoric..I voted for "hope and change " in the mid term elections in 06..

What did we get? A big bowl of nothing, that's what.

The Democrats have a majority in both the House and the Senate,and what have they done to oppose The Bush Crime Family?.Now, they need an even bigger majority we're told.What a bunch of punks.I guess they wont oppose the republicans in any measure until they have enough of a majority towin without a fight, in other words they won't be an opposition party, if it's gonna be difficult..No, better "go along to get along" instead..

They make me sick..

Once again, what did we get for our vote?Not much if you ask me..They continue to fund his war, they appoint his judges,they let his administration ignore subpeonas, and they took impeachment "off the table".They're voting record rarely represents the interests of "hard working Americans", of any race..

Now I'm called a racist 3 times a week, because I don't buy into the "hope and change" bullshit I'm being force fed..

You know what?...Fuck the Democratic party.

I may be forced to vote for them worthless sacks of shit,but don't call me a racist, because they no longer represent me or my values..

If anything, the conduct of many of Senator Obama's "enlightened"supporters here, and on the street, has proven to me that reverse racism and sexism is tolerated just fine ..

As long as your badmouthing a "white bitch."

Hope and Change baby, hope and change..

Wow...

Not quite sure where all of that rage came from, but glad you could vent - for your own sake...it is not healthy to hold all of that inside.

I was not criticising Hillary's supporters. I was criticising her attempts to appeal to the racism of some elements of the populace, and bemoaning the fact that so many were happy to ride to the clarion call.

I was never one of those who referred to Senator Clinton in the derogatory term to which you refer. I have called her a snake, a liar, an opportunist and an insincere manipulative phony. But never a white bitch.

Frankly, while I agree with you as far as also being disappointed in the present Congress, one does have to be realistic. That majority was not bought with a crew of progressive Democrats lining up to change the world.

The majority of the new Democrats we have now in Congress are really just southern conservatives with a "D" after their name. And one must not forget that snake Lieberman.The Democratic leadership is scared to death that if they go too far in attacking the Bushies, he might upset their fragile majority. He has already proven what a turncoat he can be and that he will not hesitate to betray and turn on anyone who stands in the way of his personal agenda.

So do not be too hard on Pelosi and her gang. They are doing the best they can with what little they've got. I am hoping that November brings us a few more progressives and a larger majority so that we are not dependent upon the whims of a few Republican wolves in Democratic sheep's clothing and/or that turd, Lieberman.

 

[Chalchalero]

"

That rage my friend, comes from years of Republicans ruining this country,and Democrats standing by wringing their hands and doing nothing about it,lest we "upset the Bushies"..

I say return the favor and fuck the "Bushies" and the Democrats who let them get away with robbing this country,wiping their asses with our Constitution,and murdering thousands of people throughout the world..

To a very large extent that includes Senator Clinton..

But,belive me,I don't keep that pent up in me..I write and call these sorry bastards enough to assure me a place in a newly built concentration camp, when they create another disaster, and finally impose martial law..

It sure seemed to me that you were criticizing Hillary's supporters.Must be the way I Understand English,you know, how she appeals to racists, her supporters are "unenlightened" that type of thing..

I have yet to see how she is a racist,or has pandered to them.The same can't be said of the cult like following Obama attracts.I will never be convinced that a significant number of the 91% of black voters who voted for him, didn't do it based soley because of the color of his skin.Nothing racist there,right?

I guess that's because Obama supporters, many of whom have never before voted, are so much more enlightened, and we Hillary supporters are backward, uneducated racists,who are now are holding back the Democratic party..

Thanks for clearing that up. I can't imagine how I've gotten by my whole life without being surrounded by such enlightened folks.I found it pretty "enlightening" to hear Obama supporters chant "bro's before ho's".

You say your "disappointed" with the current crop of Democrats, your a lot more forgiving of them than I can be..Me, I'm way past "disappointed".I'm flat out pissed, and disgusted with them..

I don't forget Lieberman, we are in agreement there.He is a scumbag of the highest order.I am a Connecticut resident, and I voted for Ned Lamont in the primaries and the mid term.

That maggot,managed to convince voters here that he had a wake up call when he lost the primaries, and that he was shook up, and that if given another chance, he wouldn't let them down.

They fell for it.Not me.I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire.

I also will not cut Pelosi and her gang any slack.She is a liar,and has proven to be absolutely useless in any capacity.She's got to go. I hope the voters in her district see to that.The rest aren't much better.

In general, I feel betrayed by the Democratic party.If the Socialist Candidate for President wasn't in prison right now, and was a U.S. citizen who could actually be elected,he'd get my vote..

This myth of the Democrats looking out for the little guy may have had some shaky foundation in reality years ago..Not anymore.

Republicans though, never gave a shit about anybody but the wealthy, and aren't afraid to admit it..

So, first things first,I guess.

I do not wish to turn this into yet another Obama and Hillary thread, so I will not give you the full response here that I would have liked. I will simply repeat what I said earlier, which was that there is a segment of the population that will not vote for Obama simply because of his colour (just as I concede that there are those who did vote for him, simply because of his colour.) I believe that Hillary was aware of this and attempted to appeal to them. Nothing wrong with that. If blacks want to vote for Obama just because he is black, then I see no reason why whites shouldn't vote for Hillary just because she is white.

I have not given up on the Democrats entirely yet. But I am becoming despondent. I believe that if there is no change after this election in the makeup of the Congress and in the direction of this country that I will not be returning after my Christmas trip to Europe this year. I may just wait out the next year or so and watch what follows from afar.

It has gotten so that I cannot even use my American passport anymore when I travel without enduring some kind of hostility from someone somewhere. I use my Swiss or Argentinian passport now. It is sad...

 

[TX-Beau]

gotta love how no australian has said about american racisim and yet were dumped in as ignorant and racist very nice but the silly thing is the parallel drawn is not at all apt would america elect a native american would be the parrallel to an aboriginal

but there is no way to tell because there are not any of these people running in the major parties love the way you are all superior no because you might elect someone who isn't a old white guy

Which kind of says it all right there, doesn't it. For there as well as here.

I don't think there are many places on earth that need to be tossing these accusations around.

 

[jimbill]

gotta love how no australian has said about american racisim and yet were dumped in as ignorant and racist very nice but the silly thing is the parallel drawn is not at all apt would america elect a native american would be the parrallel to an aboriginal

Which kind of says it all right there, doesn't it. For there as well as here.

I don't think there are many places on earth that need to be tossing these accusations around.

You're both trippin'. I never said Australians were racist for having not elected an aboriginal yet.

I said, "Obama offers us hope, but America has race issues. Would Australia elect an aborgine? England an Indian?"

Let's look at that sentence: Obama good. America racist. Is Australia? Is England?

As a white man on Earth whose ancestors came to America from England and killed Indians and took their land, and enslaved black men, I can look no further back than the Penal Colony of Australia and Colonial India and say, "We whites have a way still to go." And yes, all races have work to do.

No apology necessary.

Speaking of over-reacting. Kennyworth completely over-reacted to Chalchalero. I'm glad they worked that out.

Hillary was first lady. Her healthcare plan was a great effort but failed. She continuely over-inflated her experience in the White House. She was a great lawyer. She's been senator for 8 years. Her first elected office. I met her twice and used to love her. This campaign showed me a side of her I denied for years and do not like.

Obama ran a great campaign and deservedly won. He was against the war from the beginning. Obama was elected in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, Obama worked as a community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney before serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. From 1992 to 2004, he also taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School. He was elected to the Senate in November 2004 with 70% of the vote.

As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, he cosponsored legislation to control conventional weapons and to promote greater public accountability in the use of federal funds. He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In the current 110th Congress, he has sponsored legislation regarding lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for returned U.S. military personnel.


Many white Democrats won't vote for him simply because he's black.

Democrats have done as much as they can without a veto-proof majority in Congress. Many people don't understand how their own system of government works.

 

[_AJ_]

Hell, no. This is why I get a little bit tired of the charges of racism leveled towards us by Europeans (and other nationals).

You're both trippin'. I never said Australians were racist for having not elected an aboriginal yet.

you didn't say it in as many word but look at JL quote above my post was as much to that as your insinuation

and the fact you wrote so much to defend your idea looks like you are trying to convince yourself that is what you meant as well as the rest of us

 

[jimbill]

To play the devil's advocate, there is a corollary to this theorem. To wit:

Many black (and other) Democrats voted for him simply because he was black.

Jimbill, I agree with you on most of your statements, but your statement was unbalanced.

Perhaps, John. But the fact that Hillary actually led with the black vote until many black voters got to know Obama shows that they had some loyalty to the Clintons for a long time. And white people voting for someone just because that person is black (if that's even a measurable percentage) is more honorable than whites refusing to vote for a black man simply because of skin tone.

England has been way ahead of us in the States in the past.
Slavery was outlawed in England 100 years before it was in the US.

As for electing non-WASP types, ever hear of Benjamin Disraeli?
He was elected Prime Minister almost 150 years ago.

True. I never meant to say America was greater than anyone. I've been critical of my country in these posts, in fact. Those are very notable events. Of course, we also have England's role in Ireland throughout history. For that matter, other white nations of Europe have done unspeakable things (Russia, Germany, Italy). I'll add our treatment of Native Americans, Blacks (including our prison system today), and Japanese American Internment during WW II.

and the fact you wrote so much to defend your idea looks like you are trying to convince yourself that is what you meant as well as the rest of us

Did I write that much regarding your claim?

You're both trippin'. I never said Australians were racist for having not elected an aboriginal yet.

I said, "Obama offers us hope, but America has race issues. Would Australia elect an aborgine? England an Indian?"

Let's look at that sentence: Obama good. America racist. Is Australia? Is England?

As a white man on Earth whose ancestors came to America from England and killed Indians and took their land, and enslaved black men, I can look no further back than the Penal Colony of Australia and Colonial India and say, "We whites have a way still to go." And yes, all races have work to do.

No apology necessary.

Does that imply guilt or a will to defend myself? Just read what I wrote and try not to psychoanalyze me. Stick to my words. I was simply saying white majority, developed, G-7 nations all have race issues.

To be honest, as an American raised on the US media, I'm not exposed that much to Australia and it's culture, unfortunately. Our networks aren't like the BBC; They don't look at other countries unless we are invading them. I'm sure you know more about my country than I do yours. I saw the movie "Rabbit-Proof Fence." I planned a trip there once, mate, but it fell through.

 

[_AJ_]

but you didn't say sorry that it came across badly

all you need to say was i didn't mean it that way sorry it was misinterpreted plus i was not just responding to you but to JL who's comment was right after yours pretty much saying what i thought you meant by it

also this was your whole response

You're both trippin'. I never said Australians were racist for having not elected an aboriginal yet.

I said, "Obama offers us hope, but America has race issues. Would Australia elect an aborgine? England an Indian?"

Let's look at that sentence: Obama good. America racist. Is Australia? Is England?

As a white man on Earth whose ancestors came to America from England and killed Indians and took their land, and enslaved black men, I can look no further back than the Penal Colony of Australia and Colonial India and say, "We whites have a way still to go." And yes, all races have work to do.

No apology necessary.

Speaking of over-reacting. Kennyworth completely over-reacted to Chalchalero. I'm glad they worked that out.

Hillary was first lady. Her healthcare plan was a great effort but failed. She continuely over-inflated her experience in the White House. She was a great lawyer. She's been senator for 8 years. Her first elected office. I met her twice and used to love her. This campaign showed me a side of her I denied for years and do not like.

Obama ran a great campaign and deservedly won. He was against the war from the beginning. Obama was elected in February 1990 as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, Obama worked as a community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney before serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. From 1992 to 2004, he also taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School. He was elected to the Senate in November 2004 with 70% of the vote.

As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, he cosponsored legislation to control conventional weapons and to promote greater public accountability in the use of federal funds. He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In the current 110th Congress, he has sponsored legislation regarding lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for returned U.S. military personnel.


Many white Democrats won't vote for him simply because he's black.

Democrats have done as much as they can without a veto-proof majority in Congress. Many people don't understand how their own system of government works.

one thin i dont get is religion in America if any of our Prime ministers said the sort of stuff GW Bush has said there is no way he could be elected i have no idea about any of our pm's religious beliefs