Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

[kallipolis]

First, we are told that immigrants do not compete because they only take jobs that Americans do not want, picking strawberries, driving taxis, construction, janitorial work etc. That is why we need them.
But the instant they cross the border, they are downtrodden minorities, entitled to special benefits and subsidies, to allow them to compete with Americans, to "level the playing field". The purpose of the level playing field is to allow them to compete more successfully against Americans, i.e., to take opportunities from them, including our own minorities.

What would you suggest as a remedy to stop Hispanics flooding the United States?

 

[kallipolis]

We here in Greece we have been facing a steady stream of refugees flooding into Greece from Asian and African countries most heading north to more prosperous countries yet, in a country of ten million Greeks we also host some one million temporary residents legal and illegal. There is no easy answer to blocking the entry of people determined to enter Greece. With further disturbances in Egypt we are expecting a flood of Egyptians to add to the Egyptians,Tunisians and others who flee the various wars and disputes in Africa...this apart from the hundreds of thousands of Afghans, Iranians, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and Palestinians along with thousands of East Europeans.

We have a problem in Greece to employ, feed and shelter our own....but the hordes keep arriving, starving, sick and penniless.

 

[Benvolio]

We here in Greece we have been facing a steady stream of refugees flooding into Greece from Asian and African countries most heading north to more prosperous countries yet, in a country of ten million Greeks we also host some one million temporary residents legal and illegal. There is no easy answer to blocking the entry of people determined to enter Greece. With further disturbances in Egypt we are expecting a flood of Egyptians to add to the Egyptians,Tunisians and others who flee the various wars and disputes in Africa...this apart from the hundreds of thousands of Afghans, Iranians, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and Palestinians along with thousands of East Europeans.

We have a problem in Greece to employ, feed and shelter our own....but the hordes keep arriving, starving, sick and penniless.

Sounds like you are racially profiling, HUH? We also have a problem employing, feeding and sheltering our own, but the hordes keep coming. Actually, LEGAL immigration is as big a problem as illegal, (a million a year) and they are not predominately Hispanic. They are from all over. But they compete with Americans for jobs, opportunities and service at the expense of the taxpayers, and then vote with the Democrats to hurt Americans.

 

[bankside]

Opinterph, two points that relate to your theme and contextualise it I think:

First, the other side of the equation is what happens in the source country of the immigrant. Canada attracted significant negative attention 10 or 15 years ago, being accused of vacuuming up all the talented skilled people from South Africa, hampering that country's progress and depriving them of their investment in a generation which that country could not afford to lose.

In a way that affirms the value of immigrants to their new home; their loss really was our gain, at least according to them (my hope would be that it would create new links between the two countries that open up trade and create new opportunities for partnership and mutual growth). Regardless, from that you might infer that a relatively open border is good for at least the receiving country. But it does also raise the question of responsibility to the source country. Does it exist?

Which brings me to the second point, and to a conversation that I think might have waned over the last 20 years: what about multilateral development? Where are the common market areas, related institutions, treaties, and support services, that would open up much more of the world to the development of local opportunities? There are definite national trends in immigration. Canada and the US, Australia, Europe, all receive outsized interest from people hoping to move to our parts of the world. But why shouldn't Russia or Mozambique also be worth moving to, such that an American would see that as a realistic option given the right family situation and job opportunity?

If most of the world were to achieve economic and social standards to make those places realistic destinations for immigration, I think it would take away a lot of the pressures that currently attach to the influx…questions about integration, questions about displaced opportunity, etc. It would make the question of where to settle more of a personal choice and less of a macroeconomic worry.

 

[Kulindahr]

First, we are told that immigrants do not compete because they only take jobs that Americans do not want, picking strawberries, driving taxis, construction, janitorial work etc. That is why we need them.
But the instant they cross the border, they are downtrodden minorities, entitled to special benefits and subsidies, to allow them to compete with Americans, to "level the playing field". The purpose of the level playing field is to allow them to compete more successfully against Americans, i.e., to take opportunities from them, including our own minorities.

You have never, ever, documented any special benefits or subsidies given to illegals -- in fact, at every turn you've been proven wrong, and even admonished by mods to stop repeating the same falsehoods.

As for legals, the moment they cross the border they are Americans in the making -- that's the point of legal immigration.

Last, if it weren't for Republican policies of the last twenty years, we'd have eight to twelve million more jobs right now, and if not for combined two-party tyranny policies, at least double that. The problem is not immigration, the problem is politicians interfering in the economy for ideological reasons with no thought for consequences.


Citizenism as a principle doesn't help us decide immigration policy in the least absent awareness of the rest of the situation. So long as we have two essentially anti-citizen parties in power, that's where our efforts should be concentrated: bringing down the big two.

 

[Kulindahr]

What would you suggest as a remedy to stop Hispanics flooding the United States?

For the illegals? Move some military bases to the border, and let infantry tanks patrol as anti-insurgent practice.

 

[kallipolis]

Sounds like you are racially profiling, HUH? We also have a problem employing, feeding and sheltering our own, but the hordes keep coming. Actually, LEGAL immigration is as big a problem as illegal, (a million a year) and they are not predominately Hispanic. They are from all over. But they compete with Americans for jobs, opportunities and service at the expense of the taxpayers, and then vote with the Democrats to hurt Americans.

I am spelling out the level of problem that we are facing from around the globe because of our geographical position as the gate of entry into Europe from Africa and Asia detailing the various nationalities and the very human problems that they carry with them including health related, as well hunger, homelessness and penury.

Most immigrants use Greece as a temporary refuge en route to northern Europe however, our resources are finite and stretched to breaking point. Greece cannot afford immigrants of any origin including north Europeans

 

[kallipolis]

For the illegals? Move some military bases to the border, and let infantry tanks patrol as anti-insurgent practice.

The North eastern corner of Greece bordering Turkey is heavily mined with fences, Army patrols, helicopters etc.

There is a very well organised smuggling racket operating between Turkey and the Greek Islands where the migrants are dumped. There are over two thousand Greek islands.

Many migrants are discovered on beaches starving, cold, ill with children who are given temporary accommodation in church halls by the local authorities, fed and given medical assistance followed by a free ferry boat ticket to Athens where organisations that I volunteer for assist them find shelter and food usually provided by the churches and town halls.

It's an enormous problem for a small country such as Greece to cope with.

 

[Benvolio]

You have never, ever, documented any special benefits or subsidies given to illegals -- in fact, at every turn you've been proven wrong, and even admonished by mods to stop repeating the same falsehoods.

As for legals, the moment they cross the border they are Americans in the making -- that's the point of legal immigration.

Last, if it weren't for Republican policies of the last twenty years, we'd have eight to twelve million more jobs right now, and if not for combined two-party tyranny policies, at least double that. The problem is not immigration, the problem is politicians interfering in the economy for ideological reasons with no thought for consequences.


Citizenism as a principle doesn't help us decide immigration policy in the least absent awareness of the rest of the situation. So long as we have two essentially anti-citizen parties in power, that's where our efforts should be concentrated: bringing down the big two.

My comment was responsive to Opinterphs post 33 responding to my earlier post 31. We are discussing governmental benefits and subsidies to legal immigrants. Liberal justify immigrants as needed to take jobs Americans don't want, but then give them benefits to enable them to compete successfully with citizens for opportunities and jobs that citizens do want.
This thread, you have failed to notice, is about the morality or advisability of bring in large numbers of immigrants to the detriment of and at the expense of existing citizens. It is no answer to say once they cross the border they are Americans in the making. The question is why do we allow it when it damages our existing citizens.
It is a complete falsehood to say that Republican policies cost us jobs. Democrat hostility to employers and endless impositions of burdens, have caused many businesses to lose out altogether to foreign competition with lower expenses, and forced other businesses to send jobs to countries where employers are not regarded as the enemy. Democrats have always thought; we're the good, guys, we are on the side employees against employers, and they have been largely successful.

 

[EastMed]

My comment was responsive to Opinterphs post 33 responding to my earlier post 31. We are discussing governmental benefits and subsidies to legal immigrants. Liberal justify immigrants as needed to take jobs Americans don't want, but then give them benefits to enable them to compete successfully with citizens for opportunities and jobs that citizens do want.
This thread, you have failed to notice, is about the morality or advisability of bring in large numbers of immigrants to the detriment of and at the expense of existing citizens. It is no answer to say once they cross the border they are Americans in the making. The question is why do we allow it when it damages our existing citizens.

Your question may be answered by considering broader labour migration patterns and the logic of the present phase of global capitalism. Several issues need to be considered here, as Raul Delgado Wise points out:

a) the re-launching of imperialism (policies of global domination) in search of cheap and flexible labor, as well as natural resources from the South;

b) the growing asymmetries among and within countries and regions;

c) the increase and intensification of social inequalities;

d) the configuration of a gigantic global reserve army of labor associated with the emergence of severe forms of labor precarization and exploitation; and

e) the predominance of forced migration as the primary mode of human mobility under conditions of extreme vulnerability.

Global capitalism affects every country in different ways. In the US it's the loss of well-paid manufacturing jobs, the rise in financialisation of the economy, etc. Immigration is a symptom of this condition. It is underpinned by increasingly authoritarian political power. There appears to be no alternative to this neoliberal agenda, for democracy itself has become its hostage.

http://monthlyreview.org/2013/02/01...lism-unequal-development-and-forced-migration

 

[Benvolio]

Raul Delgado Wise is off base, at least with regards to the US. Yes, immigration results in an oversupply of labor, but it is the liberals who are the primary and adamant force for excessive immigration and excess labor in the US. Perhaps some businesses want cheap labor, but the Republicans,who advocate for employers, business and free enterprise, are the ones resisting immigration increases.

 

[mightbe]

Have you ever considered that what's good for business is not necessarily good for America?

 

[Benvolio]

Have you ever considered that what's good for business is not necessarily good for America?

You need to read the Raul Wisw article. He claims that business wants immigration to keep wages loe, but my point is that the business party is the one working against the flood of cheap labor. Democrats, who pretend to favor workers, want millions of cheap workers who will keep wages down.

 

[Rolyo85]

Benvolio, your entire spiel is messed up. You constantly flip back and forth between legal and illegal immigrants in your rants, they seem to be utterly interchangeable to you. One moment you talk about illegals (of whom people - not just liberals - say that they do the menial jobs Americans don't want), the next moment you start bitching about them voting Dem (which you know full well they can't do) and on and on, back and forth. Legal immigrants have come to this country through the legal system, because the US government has determined they have qualities and skills that will contribute to the betterment of the US. Your opinion on how evil we are is utterly inconsequential and ignorant, and frankly more than a little offensive.

 

[Benvolio]

This thread is about the immorality of immigration harmful to Americans. The effect is about the same, legal or illegal.

 

[Rolyo85]

Haha, yes, of course. Exactly the same.

I am sorry, how long will this be allowed to continue? I mean, outright racism and homophobia are forbidden on JUB, why isn't this xenophobic abortion sanctioned as well?

 

[Benvolio]

Haha, yes, of course. Exactly the same.

I am sorry, how long will this be allowed to continue? I mean, outright racism and homophobia are forbidden on JUB, why isn't this xenophobic abortion sanctioned as well?

Why don't you at least attempt to discuss the topic?

 

[Kulindahr]

Raul Delgado Wise is off base, at least with regards to the US. Yes, immigration results in an oversupply of labor, but it is the liberals who are the primary and adamant force for excessive immigration and excess labor in the US. Perhaps some businesses want cheap labor, but the Republicans,who advocate for mega-employers, mega-business and responsibility-free enterprise, are the ones resisting immigration increases.

I like the subtle lie at the end -- no one is asking for immigration increases (mores' the pity).

The main part I've corrected for accuracy. If Republicans hadn't stood against Americans because Obama was for them on a number of bills, we'd be adding another 100k to 200k jobs per month -- but they'd rather oppose Obama than do what's good for the country.

 

[Kulindahr]

This thread is about the immorality of immigration harmful to Americans. The effect is about the same, legal or illegal.

That's not what the title says.

Legal immigration results in more Americans, so saying the result is "about the same" is incredibly deceptive. Many of those new Americans start their own businesses which provide new jobs for other Americans, thus benefiting both old and new Americans.

 

[opinterph]

[Minority business owners] are slightly less likely to employ additional persons

The distinction between the terms, “minority” and “immigrant” notwithstanding, I offer the following correction as pertains specifically to immigrant business owners in the US:

Immigrant-owned businesses are slightly more likely to hire employees than are non-immigrant-owned firms; however, they tend to hire fewer employees on average.

Immigrant Entrepreneurs and Small Business Owners and their Access to Financial Capital