Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

[Benvolio]

I know three contractors here who did their best to hire the local kids from established families as workers, but found time and again that it was the immigrant kids who worked their asses off; a couple of farmers I know feel the same way.

Interestingly, though, the loggers I know tell a different tale, but it seems to come down to the immigrant kids seeming lost in the woods, while locals applying for those jobs grew up in and around them.

It is unfortunately true that immigrants often have a higher motivation to work than Americans. Much of that is the result of our generous welfare lifestyle. But the solution is to force businesses, by scarcity, to recruit and train locals. Pushing Americans aside to a lives of poverty, welfare and unemployment, is plainly not the right answer.

 

[Kulindahr]

It is unfortunately true that immigrants often have a higher motivation to work than Americans. Much of that is the result of our generous welfare lifestyle. But the solution is to force businesses, by scarcity, to recruit and train locals. Pushing Americans aside to a lives of poverty, welfare and unemployment, is plainly not the right answer.

The kids around here don't have any "generous welfare lifestyle". In fact, from my experience looking to hire kids, the ones least willing to work are the upper middle class ones who always got everything they needed, had a $20/week allowance, and weren't required to do chores around the house because there was a maid who came in once a week.

Our good examples are the farm kids, who the moment they could lift a shovel spent several hours a day helping on the family farm, who before reaching high school had already learned to drive -- truck, four-wheeler, tractor -- plus gotten the rudiments of carpentry and plumbing. Kids of small business owners (actual small businesses) count up there, too. (The kids of our few large business owners tend to be spoiled brats).

 

[Benvolio]

Nevertheless, there are millions of poor and unemployed. Without immigration, employers would be forced to go further to recruit.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Here's my problem with the direction this discussion has taken: the lumping of legal and illegal immigration as the same in argument. The major issue for discussion should be the regulation of immigration as to best preserve laws from being broken. To attack the concept of immigration itself is so xenophobic and racist in nature, that it should not be an acceptable viewpoint. Much like how this forum is intolerant of any poster who comes in denigrating women as inferior to men, internalized-homophobes, or habitually racist posters who dehumanize blacks, asians, or other minorities. It's not an acceptable viewpoint. We can have a rational argument about illegal immigration or immigration reform in general. However, there's no room for discussion in defending the concept of what it means to immigrate from one country to the next.

The United States was built on waves of ethnic immigration from Europe, Africa, Asia, and Latin America covering a span of over two centuries. We are the most ethnically diverse nation in the world because immigration is the fundamental building block of the original 13 colonies, the development of the South, the expansion in the Midwest, and the colonization and existence of the West Coast as it is today. It's not even a question for discussion. If you are against immigration in general, then you are a xenophobic racist. You fear "the other" with motivations of racial bias because you gloss over your own historical immigration when your ethnic heritage "invaded" the United States. A prosperous, industrialized nation must always have immigration to survive and grow.

 

[Benvolio]

You are quite mistaken. This thread is about the economic effect of immigration on the country and upon existing Americans. If immigration hurts Americans it should be limited. As I have repeatedly pointed out, immigration hurts American blacks, Hispanics and other minorities hardest. Why do you think blacks have failed to climb the economic ladder better than they have. Many of them today have to compete for jobs against new arrivals willing to work dirt cheap. Yes, the US has a long history of immigration AND a long history of discrimination against blacks. They have gone hand in hand and still do. If you are unwilling to consider the effect of immigration on minority poverty, perhaps you should question you own racism.

 

[Rolyo85]

Furthermore - to add to JB18's completely accurate post - legal immigrants to the US often are highly qualified professionals in fields requiring graduate and postgraduate education (I am such an example and in general the field of classical music in America is comprised of at least 50% immigrants). In those fields immigrants compete with Americans for jobs based ENTIRELY on merit. And if we get the job instead of an American, it's because we did better at the audition or application or interview, not because someone had an immigrant quota to fill.

Benvolio talks about immigrants as if all we do is do minimum wage jobs, and all his rhetoric is based on it.

 

[Benvolio]

Furthermore - to add to JB18's completely accurate post - legal immigrants to the US often are highly qualified professionals in fields requiring graduate and postgraduate education (I am such an example and in general the field of classical music in America is comprised of at least 50% immigrants). In those fields immigrants compete with Americans for jobs based ENTIRELY on merit. And if we get the job instead of an American, it's because we did better at the audition or application or interview, not because someone had an immigrant quota to fill.

Benvolio talks about immigrants as if all we do is do minimum wage jobs, and all his rhetoric is based on it.

You brag about pushing an American out of a job, and not in a field of science and medicine but of noise making. This marginal difference between you and the next guy does not justify pushing him aside. How many classical musicians are out of work? You could give a damn less. Worse, you vote Democat to hurt Americans; more and more immigrants and confiscatory taxes on Americans.

 

[opinterph]

You brag about pushing an American out of a job, and not in a field of science and medicine but of noise making. This marginal difference between you and the next guy does not justify pushing him aside. How many classical musicians are out of work? You could give a damn less. Worse, you vote Democat to hurt Americans; more and more immigrants and confiscatory taxes on Americans.

I don’t see any bragging in the quote, but I do see a response filled with interpersonal commentary.

 

[opinterph]

11 million additional legal workers and legal immigrants IS a big increase in an of itself.

I think the number is most recently estimated at 11.5 million; however, not all of those are “workers.” Some are children, some are elderly, and others are probably “stay at home moms,” etc.

Nevertheless, there are millions of poor and unemployed. Without immigration, employers would be forced to go further to recruit.

What do you mean by “go further?”

 

[Rolyo85]

You brag about pushing an American out of a job, and not in a field of science and medicine but of noise making. This marginal difference between you and the next guy does not justify pushing him aside. How many classical musicians are out of work? You could give a damn less. Worse, you vote Democat to hurt Americans; more and more immigrants and confiscatory taxes on Americans.

Did you seriously call one of the most complex forms of art ever created "noise making"? My god, what sort of empty half-life do you lead? And why should I care if I got a job and an American didn't? Are Americans entitled to preferential treatment when they don't do a good enough job? And how would you know what marginal" difference is? You don't seem to know what music is to begin with...

Also, I don't vote. I'm not a citizen. Learn how voting works, finally...

 

[bankside]

You brag about pushing an American out of a job, and not in a field of science and medicine but of noise making. This marginal difference between you and the next guy does not justify pushing him aside. How many classical musicians are out of work? You could give a damn less. Worse, you vote Democat to hurt Americans; more and more immigrants and confiscatory taxes on Americans.

I could not have satirised your position better than you do yourself. I read the post you quote and thought "Brace yourself for 'We don't need no damn foreigners playing a tuba,' but there it is!"

Yes, because musicianship is not a real job. What you really need is people toiling in factories for it to be a real job. Like this:

 

[Benvolio]

Did you seriously call one of the most complex forms of art ever created "noise making"? My god, what sort of empty half-life do you lead? And why should I care if I got a job and an American didn't? Are Americans entitled to preferential treatment when they don't do a good enough job? And how would you know what marginal" difference is? You don't seem to know what music is to begin with...

Also, I don't vote. I'm not a citizen. Learn how voting works, finally...

Yes. Americans are entitled to a preference for jobs in America. It is absurd and arrogant for you to believe that you are so great that a nation of 325 plus million Americans needs to import you to put an American out of work. Bullshit. Whatever you play, there are thousands of Americans who play it as well. And no, it is nowhere near as important as science or medicine.

 

[frankfrank]

Furthermore - to add to JB18's completely accurate post - legal immigrants to the US often are highly qualified professionals in fields requiring graduate and postgraduate education (I am such an example and in general the field of classical music in America is comprised of at least 50% immigrants). In those fields immigrants compete with Americans for jobs based ENTIRELY on merit. And if we get the job instead of an American, it's because we did better at the audition or application or interview, not because someone had an immigrant quota to fill.

Benvolio talks about immigrants as if all we do is do minimum wage jobs, and all his rhetoric is based on it.

It's appalling to see somebody here basically telling you that you have an INFERIOR job. That is so totally off the rails. My first reaction seeing your mention of the composition of classical music workers (and, yes, IT IS WORK - damned hard work!!) was more a "Wow, cool!" one - does Benvolio want a world where everybody is in slavery and chains, without any kind of entertainment of any kind whatsoever? In his world, if classical music is "making noise," things such as acting ("trying to be somebody fake"), doing art ("scribbling on canvas"), hosting festivals ("diverting people away from 24/7 worship of God?"...MAYBE), must be a complete waste. I would ask somebody to kill me, rather than be forced to live in such a world.

What about authors who write fictional novels or works? I suppose that Shakespeare or Harriet Beecher Stowe would be considered a waste of time, for "filling our minds with drivel that isn't true."

I will gladly and enthusiastically applaud your decision to find a type of employment which you love - which is generally very true of musicians (much more so than many other occupations). Don't let the haters get you down.

It's possible that I've been in an audience where you've played something I enjoyed greatly. Or, if not, that may well happen someday.

 

[Kulindahr]

You brag about pushing an American out of a job, and not in a field of science and medicine but of noise making. This marginal difference between you and the next guy does not justify pushing him aside. How many classical musicians are out of work? You could give a damn less. Worse, you vote Democat to hurt Americans; more and more immigrants and confiscatory taxes on Americans.

How anti-free market!

 

[Benvolio]

How anti-free market!

If free market in labor means borders open to an excess inflow, then yes, it is a prescription for great poverty for many, but great wealth for others. That seems to be the inevitable result of excess labor in a free market. What else could happen, absent government intervention, and thus, no free market?

 

[Kulindahr]

Yes. Americans are entitled to a preference for jobs in America. It is absurd and arrogant for you to believe that you are so great that a nation of 325 plus million Americans needs to import you to put an American out of work. Bullshit. Whatever you play, there are thousands of Americans who play it as well. And no, it is nowhere near as important as science or medicine.

This is fascism.

Real Americans hire the best they can get, from wherever they can.

 

[Benvolio]

You don't know any meaning of fascism. Real Americans do not throw other Americans under the bus for frivolous reasons. But, do you really think that he is significantly better than any young Americans?

 

[mightbe]

Yes. Americans are entitled to a preference for jobs in America. It is absurd and arrogant for you to believe that you are so great that a nation of 325 plus million Americans needs to import you to put an American out of work. Bullshit. Whatever you play, there are thousands of Americans who play it as well. And no, it is nowhere near as important as science or medicine.

Fighting the urge to punch the ever-loving shit out of you.

Americans are no more special than the Swedes, the Irish, the Japanese, the Bulgarians and the Malaysians. If the job is irrelevant to geography and nationality, why should one nationality in one geographic area be preferred? Art is a borderless endeavor. An artist can come from anywhere and be anything (notice that I do not say everyone can be an artist).

Rolyo, IIRC (and very sorry if I'm mistaken), is a violinist who hails from Bulgaria. If a Bulgarian is better than both an American and a Dane applying for the same position, the people presiding over the audition will go with the Bulgarian, because he's the best. Talent comes from everywhere. If the American can barely squawk out Happy Birthday why would you pick her to sing Tosca over Anna Netrebko (Russian)? In the world of music (and fine art in general), the best is the best and there's no substitute for the best. Art is a competitive world. Nationality means nothing.

He's saying that out of all the applicants for whatever post he has that he got there on merit. He didn't push an American out of a job. The American is in the same situation as Rolyo, and recognizes that there might be a better musician applying for the same job. Who knows, the American might have to play for an orchestra in France or the Czech Republic. But that is something every musician must acknowledge, that they might have to search high and low to land a chair. Sure there are many thousands of violinists in the US, but 95% of them are amateurs and the rest either have posts or are looking. An American is not a better musician just because of his passport.

Borders do not matter. Art is transcendent. Talent and skill are the only two things that matter.

It may not find a cure for cancer or a new planet, but it provides an essential service: entertainment. Entertainment is vital for civilization and functioning society. True, classical music won't bring in as many people as Biebz or Nicki Minaj, but the market exists and it's a strong and consistent one. It doesn't have to deal with large trends like most popular music.

I'm a [classical] pianist and lover of music, and in no way am I ashamed of that. Obviously, you're the kind of person that would be ashamed to spend an evening at the opera or an art gallery.

 

[mightbe]

And don't get me started on your characterization of classical music as "noise". That's total BS and you ought to know it. It's no more noise than what I imagine is your country music (which I abhor) but I have the good sense and respect not to trash talk it.

 

[Benvolio]

In America, citizens are entitled to a preference for jobs, not because they are intrinsically better but because Americans, and their government have some obligation not o hurt other Americans.