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Americans First – Citizenism as a Moral Principle to Regulate Immigration

Benvolio said:
You are quite mistaken. This thread is about the economic effect of immigration on the country and upon existing Americans.
Click to expand...

No. This thread is about the philosophy of Citizenism as it relates to immigration to the United States. Economic considerations are an important part of the discussion, but social and cultural elements also form a pivotal significance to the deliberation.


Benvolio said:
As I have repeatedly pointed out, immigration hurts American blacks, Hispanics and other minorities hardest.
Click to expand...

Anyone who honestly researches this issue will find a plethora of evidence suggesting that immigration is not a primary cause of hurt experienced by “American blacks, Hispanics and other minorities.” I would expect anyone advocating concern for those populations to also be eager to explore the myriad of forces that continue to influence the efforts of those populations to find social, political, and economic success. I suggest interested members review a recent paper by Harry J. Holzer, published by the Migration Policy Institute (linked below).

Dr. Holzer acknowledges the widespread agreement that highly educated immigrants contribute much to the US economy, but the emphasis of his study is the less-skilled workers. He implicates a range of social and political concerns, but notes that economic issues deserve to be among our top concerns when considering immigration reform legislation. He points out how relevant literature suggests quite modest negative economic impacts to native-born US citizens by less-educated immigrants and concludes that it is hard to make the case that the current volume of unskilled immigrants is too high. To the contrary – a sudden curtailment of less-educated immigrants would actually cause disruptions in many industries and could also raise costs in the long term.


 
Benvolio said:
You don't know any meaning of fascism. Real Americans do not throw other Americans under the bus for frivolous reasons. But, do you really think that he is significantly better than any young Americans?
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That's not a question for you or me to ask, only for an American with the money to hire him.


Now, since we're discussing a musician:


 
Benvolio said:
In America, citizens are entitled to a preference for jobs, not because they are intrinsically better but because Americans, and their government have some obligation not o hurt other Americans.
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There is no more nor less an obligation to provide a job for other Americans than to provide housing or health care.
 
Benvolio said:
In America, citizens are entitled to a preference for jobs, not because they are intrinsically better but because Americans, and their government have some obligation not o hurt other Americans.
Click to expand...

Actually, the government has no place fucking with art. The government can give money to artistic foundations and groups, but it is in no way involved in artistic decisions. The government can't protect what it can't (and doesn't) control. Artists and patrons alike (of which you are neither) recognize that merit is all that matters. This means that an artistic scene within any country is a very diverse one. Orchestras, being in many ways artistic scenes in and of themselves, will often include people of all races and nationalities, as long as they are the best to audition. Art galleries will feature anybody that produced acclaimed (or controversial) visual art. Film critics often include foreign films that we've never heard of because they rely on merit, not popularity. World-class restaurants will bring in chefs from all over the globe.

My point remains. Borders and governments are irrelevant to art.

Benvolio, where do you live? What state?
 
Benvolio said:
In America, citizens are entitled to a preference for jobs, not because they are intrinsically better but because Americans, and their government have some obligation not o hurt other Americans.
Click to expand...

How anti-free market.

It's positively socialist.
 
This is in response to Opinterph below without copying his entire post. i can present studies which demonstrate the adverse effects of immigration on minority Americans, but of course, they are from non-liberal sources and will be rejected here out of hand. The figures can be juggled to reach any preconceived results desired.
Conscientious individuals will recognize that for a large portion of the time since 1865, blacks were frozen out of the labor market. Why should I have to convince anyone of that?
Industry had a vast need for labor at that time. But it still did not need blacks because of the huge influx of immigrants.
I do not understand how these facts can be denied in in good faith.
 
Benvolio said:
In America, citizens are entitled to a preference for jobs, not because they are intrinsically better but because Americans, and their government have some obligation not o hurt other Americans.
Click to expand...

Like you were already told, this goes against free market. It says "we should hire based not on quality, but nationality, and end up with an inferior product." You want to control the market. So did Communism and Fascism :) Good job for showing your true colors.
 
Benvolio said:
This is in response to Opinterph below without copying his entire post. i can present studies which demonstrate the adverse effects of immigration on minority Americans, but of course, they are from non-liberal sources
Click to expand...

Please post the links.
 
mightbe said:
Actually, the government has no place fucking with art. The government can give money to artistic foundations and groups, but it is in no way involved in artistic decisions. The government can't protect what it can't (and doesn't) control. Artists and patrons alike (of which you are neither) recognize that merit is all that matters. This means that an artistic scene within any country is a very diverse one. Orchestras, being in many ways artistic scenes in and of themselves, will often include people of all races and nationalities, as long as they are the best to audition. Art galleries will feature anybody that produced acclaimed (or controversial) visual art. Film critics often include foreign films that we've never heard of because they rely on merit, not popularity. World-class restaurants will bring in chefs from all over the globe.

My point remains. Borders and governments are irrelevant to art.

Benvolio, where do you live? What state?
Click to expand...

The government let David Bowie into the country to perform a concert, when an artist like Vanilla Ice was clearly capable of singing nearly as well to the same tune.
 
Benvolio said:
This is in response to Opinterph below without copying his entire post. i can present studies which demonstrate the adverse effects of immigration on minority Americans, but of course, they are from non-liberal sources and will be rejected here out of hand. The figures can be juggled to reach any preconceived results desired.
Conscientious individuals will recognize that for a large portion of the time since 1865, blacks were frozen out of the labor market. Why should I have to convince anyone of that?
Industry had a vast need for labor at that time. But it still did not need blacks because of the huge influx of immigrants.
I do not understand how these facts can be denied in in good faith.
Click to expand...

Stop waving around the blacks, that's positively hypocritical. We both know - and so does everyone here - that the reason blacks were passed over for jobs had NOTHING to do with immigrants and everything to do with racism.
 
Benvolio said:
How many classical musicians are out of work?
Click to expand...


Freelance Musicians Hear Mournful Coda as the Jobs Dry Up (New York Times; December 2010)

A peek inside the lives of classical musicians (Star Tribune; November 2012)


Benvolio said:
Yes. Americans are entitled to a preference for jobs in America. It is absurd and arrogant for you to believe that you are so great that a nation of 325 plus million Americans needs to import you to put an American out of work. Bullshit. Whatever you play, there are thousands of Americans who play it as well. And no, it is nowhere near as important as science or medicine.
Click to expand...

One of my dearest friends was a very talented classical musician prior to his sudden tragic death. His gigs involved travel all over the world. Music is not the same as manufacturing widgets.
 
opinterph said:
One of my dearest friends was a very talented classical musician prior to his sudden tragic death. His gigs involved travel all over the world. Music is not the same as manufacturing widgets.
Click to expand...

I certainly hope we didn't let him into Canada. He could have stolen jobs that belong to Justin Bieber.
















and i'm sorry for your loss, and hoping he'd have appreciated that sense of humour.
 
Rolyo85 said:
Stop waving around the blacks, that's positively hypocritical. We both know - and so does everyone here - that the reason blacks were passed over for jobs had NOTHING to do with immigrants and everything to do with racism.
Click to expand...

Yes. But it was made possible by the huge immigration. As I said, they needed labor but did not need to hire blacks because they had the immigrants. Without the immigrants, they would have had to hire blacks.
 
opinterph said:
No. This thread is about the philosophy of Citizenism as it relates to immigration to the United States. Economic considerations are an important part of the discussion, but social and cultural elements also form a pivotal significance to the deliberation.




Anyone who honestly researches this issue will find a plethora of evidence suggesting that immigration is not a primary cause of hurt experienced by “American blacks, Hispanics and other minorities.” I would expect anyone advocating concern for those populations to also be eager to explore the myriad of forces that continue to influence the efforts of those populations to find social, political, and economic success. I suggest interested members review a recent paper by Harry J. Holzer, published by the Migration Policy Institute (linked below).

Dr. Holzer acknowledges the widespread agreement that highly educated immigrants contribute much to the US economy, but the emphasis of his study is the less-skilled workers. He implicates a range of social and political concerns, but notes that economic issues deserve to be among our top concerns when considering immigration reform legislation. He points out how relevant literature suggests quite modest negative economic impacts to native-born US citizens by less-educated immigrants and concludes that it is hard to make the case that the current volume of unskilled immigrants is too high. To the contrary – a sudden curtailment of less-educated immigrants would actually cause disruptions in many industries and could also raise costs in the long term.


Click to expand...

Heavy read -- thanks for the link!
 
Just a suggestion on the immigration front - many countries make use of temporary visas to address temporary needs. This gives workers a shot at work they don't have at home, but they remain citizens of their own countries and return there when the job is done.
 
opinterph said:
Freelance Musicians Hear Mournful Coda as the Jobs Dry Up (New York Times; December 2010)

A peek inside the lives of classical musicians (Star Tribune; November 2012)
Click to expand...

Indeed, some orchestras have even gone as far as to discard long term positions and only do concert-by-concert contracts. I think the LSO did that a few years ago, but I'm not one to follow their employment practices.

Do you know, Rolyo?

And now one of my absolute favorites. Daphnis et Chloé, Maurice Ravel, conducted by Charles Dutoit with the Montreal Symphony
 
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