an interesting quote

[tonyboy]

I've never posted in this thread before. Too many of you guys are far more advanced and knowledgable about religion than I am. Quite intimidating it can be.
I thought about posting this in the general threads but decided it against it as there would most likely be a lot of religion bashing and that is not something I want to read.
I read a book review today in National Review magazine. The book reviewed is called 'The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West'. Authored by Niall Ferguson. The review was written by Paul Johnson.

It is quite a long review but I want to share the final paragraph, especially the quote at the end. So frends, here goes:

'The lessons of the 20th century, in my view, is that humanity, even with the religious restraints, is a force for horror as well as progress. Without them, its turpitude knows no bounds. I recal the somber words of the Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner:
"If ever belief in God disappears, and the image of God is eradicated from human minds, we will become nothing more than incredibly clever apes - and the ultimate fate of humanity will be too horrible to contemplate."


I would appreciate comments on the above from any jubbers. Am especially interested in reading what Andreus, Hard-up1, Tbonez, and JWest have to say.
But welcome comments from everyone.

Thanks my friends.
Tony.

 

[jockboy01]

I think it implies that the unique thing about humans compared to other species is our belief in God. First, I'm not sure we are more than incredibly clever apes (if you get a chance, read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn... it has a very interesting take on religion and it's influence on the human role in nature) even with the belief in God.

As for the fate of humanity, I really don't think it would change much if we didn't believe in a God. I know some very good people who are devote atheists. And I know some religious people who aren't good people. I think the driving force behind humans as a default is greed (call me a pessimist). When we recognize and control our greed, then we become good people and people for whom the other comes first. Otherwise, we let the greed drive our thought and consume us. It becomes the focus of our life rather than compassion, understanding, etc. I think if we believe God is the driving force in human life, we are just being naive and kidding ourselves. I don't think society is built around God... although some societies are built upon a humanly conceived notion of God which is a bit different.

Interesting to think about though.

 

[dw8038r2]

I agree with the quote (quotation): Yes, much evil has been done by groups and societies in the name of various religions, but so much more good has been quietly done by individuals through the same motivation. We need to see some sort of higher purpose or morality in life, something beyond our own selfish desires, and if that were to vanish, so would our humanity.

In my opinion, the religions that best serve mankind are those that do not try to control human behavior through rules and restrictions, but try to change human behavior through love and example. Those are the religions the world sure can't do without.

 

[Kurn]

I use the word God to refer to whatever apprehension of The Holiest that a person might have. I do not use it to refer to a monarchical deity. M. Rahner might need a monarch in the clouds. But I do not restrict "God" to such vulgar notions.

Put another way: Do Good. Even in your thoughts and conceptions do as well as you know how; Ergo, in your Theological thinking think well.

So, if I want to be accomodating, I might agree with the quotation. But I probably wouldn't be giving M. Rahner what he wants if he understands me. I am an atheistic theist.

 

[josefjosef]

Quick definitions (quote)


noun: a passage or expression that is quoted or cited
noun: a punctuation mark used to attribute the enclosed text to someone else
verb: put quote marks around
verb: repeat a passage from (Example: "He quoted the Bible to her")
verb: refer to for illustration or proof (Example: "He said he could quote several instances of this behavior")
verb: name the price of (Example: "Quote prices for cars")

 

[Andreus]

I've never posted in this thread before. Too many of you guys are far more advanced and knowledgable about religion than I am. Quite intimidating it can be.
I thought about posting this in the general threads but decided it against it as there would most likely be a lot of religion bashing and that is not something I want to read.
I read a book review today in National Review magazine. The book reviewed is called 'The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West'. Authored by Niall Ferguson. The review was written by Paul Johnson.

It is quite a long review but I want to share the final paragraph, especially the quote at the end. So frends, here goes:

'The lessons of the 20th century, in my view, is that humanity, even with the religious restraints, is a force for horror as well as progress. Without them, its turpitude knows no bounds. I recal the somber words of the Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner:
"If ever belief in God disappears, and the image of God is eradicated from human minds, we will become nothing more than incredibly clever apes - and the ultimate fate of humanity will be too horrible to contemplate."


I would appreciate comments on the above from any jubbers. Am especially interested in reading what Andreus, Hard-up1, Tbonez, and JWest have to say.
But welcome comments from everyone.

Thanks my friends.
Tony.

i sat in on a lengthy debate of a large collection of Imams In Tal Afar on just this topic.

let me try to recount what they decided by comparing many different surahs of the Koran...

Animals and Jinns are souls of the earth.

Angels are souls of the heavens.

each of those classifications inherently defines their natures and behaviors.

Animals and Jinns seek the profits of the earth and all its promises of sensual pleasures and short term delights.

Angels seek all the Joys of non corporeal joy and infinite existance. They seek long term pleasure and sacrifice the eternal now to attain it for themselves and the entire universe.

and then there is man.

he is unique in that he possesses both the soul of the earth and the soul of the heavens. That is why god gave him the choice to choose between them. We can only attain our ultimate and true potential by combining all our aspects and we must personally choose to do that.

to live a spiritual life dedicated to prayer without practical worldy aplications is not human. It is not what we were created to do. That is what God created the Angels for. Nor were we created to live a solely physical and sensual existance. That is what God created the animals for.

to fully realize the potential of all that we are created to be, we can neither be solely dedicated to prayer nor to pursuits of the earth. we must find a way to combine these things. We must find a practical way to explore our soul on earth. We must give charity, we must fast, we must visit the holy places, we must declare gods greatness, and we must use prayer to guide us through these endeavors.

if we pray but don't take action we are nothing but castrated angels. Beings dedicated to a realm that we have little power to affect while on earth. Clergymen often fall into this trap. They sit and preach, seldom touching the world and making a real difference or effort to curb war, hunger, or any other malady that plagues the earth.

if we take actions but never pray and acnowledge our connection to the heavenly realm then we are nothing but animals or even worse, Jinn. We are like pigs digging in the soil for acorns. We are empty. we seek our own selfish gains and nothing more. our bellies grow big from gluttony, but our souls wither.

if we as humans forget that we have souls and focus on only the pursuits of the world, we indeed will become nothing more than animals. We must pray and we must take action on those prayers in the world around us. Anything less is Inhuman. If we ever forget our connection to God, to the heavens and the heavenly realm, then we are indeed nothing more than apes.

 

[tonyboy]

Re: an interesting quote

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Since you don't want to read religion bashing, I'll start with a fun fact thing. Did you know that the word quote is actually a verb and not a noun? technically it should be "An interesting quotation". I just learned that like 2 days ago lol.

Well thanks man. Not sure if that is a 'fun' fact, but I appreciate you helping me out. I really do.

 

[Andreus]

I'm an ape. I'm nothing more than an animal. But I am NOT inhuman. I take offense to that statement. (not REALLY... but you know what I mean)

we can only be what we choose to be

our nature is ours to choose

heres something to twist your noodle...

if There is a God, then he knew what you would choose and created you lovingly anyway. therefore, your choices have to be in accord with his divine plan.

if there is not a god then you still are being precisely what you were meant to be.

Either way, you are fulfilling your destiny and should have no guilt nor should any man hold you in contempt for your choices.

the true question is... are you enough?

is what you are and what you have chosen to pursue enough to make you truly and fundamentally happy?

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." These are the words of The Prophet.

 

[Green_Man_007]

Since you don't want to read religion bashing, I'll start with a fun fact thing. Did you know that the word quote is actually a verb and not a noun? technically it should be "An interesting quotation". I just learned that like 2 days ago lol.

Actually, in context "quote" is a gerund , which TonyBoy used properly.

(Besides, there's the fact that viability of thread titles give preference to semantic economy within reader comprehension over strict grammar)

 

[Green_Man_007]

'The lessons of the 20th century, in my view, is that humanity, even with the religious restraints, is a force for horror as well as progress. Without them, its turpitude knows no bounds. I recal the somber words of the Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner:
"If ever belief in God disappears, and the image of God is eradicated from human minds, we will become nothing more than incredibly clever apes - and the ultimate fate of humanity will be too horrible to contemplate."

First, your apologetic intro was cute, but you have as much of a valid insight to post on religious topics as anyone else who's armed with a keyboard.

Whatever manifestation of "God," or lack thereof, to your perspective, that's your own to ponder, and right to share it.

The Theosophists' motto is, "There is no religion higher than truth."

Next, apes have a more-civilized way of social interaction than humans do. They do not willingly eat poison (such as margarine), or destroy their own habitats, or travel miles to carry out vendettas.

There is surprisingly a lack of serial killers and insider traders among their populations.

Guess they're not "clever" enough.

However, that is a good quote you found.

To my view, a lot of organized religion is based on superstition and someone else's self-serving agenda.

I said "a lot," but not necessarily all.

As a student of anthropology and political science, I agree with Karl Marx: Religion is the opium of the masses.

In the world of my own pagan "superstitions," there's swift karmic retribution for wrongdoing. Fear of punishment is not my motivation for acting in harmony with Nature, though, otherwise it would be self interest.

"Ethics" isn't defined by whether or not action agrees with the letter of the law, mundane or spiritual. It is simply duty that emerges from sound character.

Catholics get a blank slate for "sins," after they confess and do penance. Evangelical Christians have a "get out of jail free" card almost anytime.

Religion has been a tool of theocratic dictators to keep the peasants in line

Whether a king was deity incarnate in ancient times, or hand-picked by deity to be despot in medieval times, or anointed as prophet in modern times, there's a whole lotta irrational shit stirred by zealous faith in MORTAL spokespeople.

While I agree that peace of mind comes with having some frame of a theology (atheism's just too sad, while the mystery of agnosticism would be so much more festive) , I wouldn't have it forced on anyone, and could only hope that --- God or no God --- humanity could have the individual fortitude of self-actualized identity to check their egos and stop these bullshit holy wars.

I encourage everyone to listen directly to one's God, but if the voice speaking says, "kill," then pick another voice.

In the meantime, ape civilization sometimes make me jealous

 

[Andreus]

And just to clarify...

those Imams that were debating the ideas I mentioned in my first post in this thread were Sunnis

 

[turtle]

Since you don't want to read religion bashing, I'll start with a fun fact thing. Did you know that the word quote is actually a verb and not a noun? technically it should be "An interesting quotation". I just learned that like 2 days ago lol.

Well, you can go ahead an unlearn it, too. "Quote" is now listed in most dictionaries as a noun, as well as a verb.

And you did not have to wait for dictionaries to catch up, feel free to use the language as it is understood by your audience. A language changes as it changes, and then dictionaries come along afterward to catch up.

-D

 

[turtle]

I hate dictionaries BECAUSE they define things as they're understood by the general audience. But that doesn't mean it's right. I don't care what some people would say something means, I care about what it does mean.

The only point of language is to be understood.

The correct construction is the construction which does in fact get your actual meaning across.

My dictionaries tell me, by omission, that portions of my own language ( the S word, the F word, Ain't, etc.) do not exist. Makes me mad as hell, sometimes.

The "correct" changes.

Sometimes it does aggravate me, as in the modern use of the expression "begs the question" to mean "makes you want to ask the question", when it means something else entirely (or used to). I can hope that the logical fallacy which the phrase was originally intended to describe is not entirely forgotten.

If I want to use language, I had better use the language as my hearer understands it, or I am wasting my time.

-D

PS, you hit on why I love dictionaries and have two shelves of them. I can track the ways our language has changed and is changing. What you seem to need is a better one, encyclopedias make a very similar attempt to freeze knowledge at a particular point.

 

[turtle]

'The lessons of the 20th century, in my view, is that humanity, even with the religious restraints, is a force for horror as well as progress. Without them, its turpitude knows no bounds. I recal the somber words of the Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner:
"If ever belief in God disappears, and the image of God is eradicated from human minds, we will become nothing more than incredibly clever apes - and the ultimate fate of humanity will be too horrible to contemplate."

As to the actual quote(s)?

I would suggest that much of that "turpitude" can be laid squarely at the door of Christianity and Islam, which both teach the poisonous ideas that man is inherently evil, and that this world is not the "real" world, the one which matters.

I think we would all be much healthier and safer if we jettisoned dualism and standard monotheism entirely.

-D

 

[jakke]

As to the actual quote(s)?

I would suggest that much of that "turpitude" can be laid squarely at the door of Christianity and Islam, which both teach the poisonous ideas that man is inherently evil, and that this world is not the "real" world, the one which matters.

I think we would all be much healthier and safer if we jettisoned dualism and standard monotheism entirely.

-D

I would suggest that to say that "Christianity.... teach the poisonous idea that man is inhererntly evil...." is stretching it a bit. Eastern Christianity rejects the notion that man is inherently evil, rather it insists that man and all of material creation is by its very nature, good. The first challange to early christianity was the dualism espoused by gnosticism, which held the notion that man's material being was evil, and the goal of existence was to enter into a spiritual realm of existence which was perceived as the ture and proper existence for which umanity was destined. Western theology did develope the notion that fallen man was in a state of depravity. The christian east rejected this notion. It understood that humanity and the rest of the cosmos was good but had turned its direction from union with the Creator which brought chaos and destruction into creation. Humanity "covered", but never lost the nature of its goodness.

It is so easy to say that the problems of the would are caused by one relegion or another. Humanity has used certain selected and self interpreted ideas about their relegion as an excuse to justify going to war, or persecuting and discriminating against others. Whether monotheistic, ploytheisitic, deisitc, or whatever, a close examination of human history (with the exception of few pacifist groups) has shown this to have happened in all cultures and civiliztions.

Far too little has been recorded of people of relegion (and I mean all relegions) who have, on the grounds of their relegion, stood up against such an abuse of faith.

 

[Nonimus]

Like i'd listen to anything a Jesuit had to say.

 

[thewiz]

Rahner is indeed a very interesting person. His book, "Hearer of the Word" stressed more transcendental relationship with God...that it was to be a personal relationship versus a distant one.

The fact is that Rahner's influences were felt throughout the Second Vatican council; his writings served as the basis for the considerable reform that took place before, during and after that council which stressed that the "church" was not meant to be a building but rather a people.

As to the thought that men would revert to apes...having studied and read Rahner I believe one could hypothesize that he was stressing that what separates mankind from the animal kingdom is that unfulfilled or unneeded connection with a higher entity. Man is given a body, soul and spirit; it is the spiritual part of man that struggles with connection. I don't think religion can be the only way someone has a connection with God; it is a spiritual guidance that CAN be fostered through some religions which helps fill this void.

I agree that many atheists can be good people (as can Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, Christian). I, personally, cannot imagine not satisfying my spiritual relationship with my creator; it would leave me with a void and in difficult times in my life, it has been what kept me going....

 

[Andreus]

There are a few athiests who would not admit it but nevertheless I would consider spiritual

My observations of them are that they have found something bigger than themselves, something that motivates them to explore the world and seek a higher and more evolved state of being

they seek to better themselves.

although they aren't really believers in god, they are very comitted to causes and bettering the world. that is really what religion is suposed to do and ocasionally misses the mark.

I think any doorway to mettering yourself and the world is spiritual, even if the concept of god isn't introduced into the picture.

 

[turtle]

How? How do you define spirituality? I don't even believe in spirits/ghosts/souls, so... ?

You might well define it as a concern for things which are of no immediate concern.

Yes, that's a bit cute, but I mean to say that when we speak of our spirituality we are speaking of a mix of thoughts, concerns and emotions of a higher order than the ordinary.

We have usually recognized that hunger is a different order of feeling from happiness. We define hunger as physical and happiness as emotional. The simple happiness of a full stomach is ordinary.

We cannot speak of higher emotions, though, without thoughts as well. The mix is far too complicated in us always to be separating it out.

The whole package, emotional and intellectual, is the spiritual.

-D

 

[RobinGoodfellow]

1)

And if you doubt that, just look at what research shows. There is an inverse relationship between intelligence and religiousness, scientists are far more likely to not have a religion. Even when they do, it is often not what we would usually call religion (like christianity or islam or whatever).

Actually, research shows the opposite; most scientists have some sort of religion. In fact, a number of scientists that began as extreme atheists gained some form of strong spirituality directly as a cause of their work. So, I think that it's far more legit to say that there is a direct link between intelligence and faith, especially if you are limiting it to just scientists (who aren't always the brightest ones around, but hey).

2) Apes with better society: Yeah. You'll not find a better example of xenophobia (humans will usually at least let strangers talk before killing them). Also, the new leader of the tribe will rape any female in order to eliminate the seed of deposed rivals. But if rape and xenophobia are your ideals, then I guess ape society would be the perfect society.

3) Deaths in the name of religion: It's interesting that Hitler, Stalin, and just about every conqueror with a high body count that forgot to espouse a particular belife are conveniently forgotten about in this; Genghis Khan killed every one he could, and I don't think he exactly a Buddhist. It's even neater that religion is blamed even when it involves a grab for power, riches, or land; read: Just because a prayer is offered doesn't make the quest holy.

In short, this is, and always will be, a bullshit argument.

[As a sidenote, it always amuses that a Christian ruler that wars is considered a slaughterer in the name of God, yet a Buddhist ruler that commits genocide has his religion forgotten. Interesting that...]

4) That said, I don't think you need to be spiritual to better yourself, but it does help.

5)

"If ever belief in God disappears, and the image of God is eradicated from human minds, we will become nothing more than incredibly clever apes - and the ultimate fate of humanity will be too horrible to contemplate."

It helps to have a belief in a higher power, if for no other reason than it helps to believe that random events do fulfill a purpose. But, more importantly, a belief in a higher power provides a common point; I as a Christian can discuss spirituality with a Buddhist even without either of us knowing the other's text. That common ground allows two strangers a point of reference when it comes to working together, which can definitely be a point of strength.

RG