On-Topic ANTIFA: When is Violence Justified?

[NotHardUp1]

We often look back to the Nazi buildup before WWII began and ponder whether Jewish and other oppressed Europeans should have offered violent resistance sooner.

That concept seems to be behind ANTIFA's advocacy of violence. There isn't any real likelihood that free speech will be ended, even for fascists, in the US, so the question remains, what is "fair game" when trying to defeat white supremacy?

It has been argued on Meet the Press by a representative of the Southern Poverty Law Center that ANTIFA's tactics in Charlottesville actually exacerbated the violence.

Was it the right move? If not, what is?

Where does the extreme right go next if "silenced" by extreme methods by the far left? If driven underground, will they not take up the bombs and terrorism, again?

For the record, I do not know any person on either end of the spectrum, but the issue is very pertinent as the vast moderate majority looks at the status quo and the next steps.

 

[TickTockMan]

When they hit first.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Whether Antifa's actions are "correct" in one eyes is always up for a matter of discussion. Plus there are always bad apples even in groups that get together to do the "right" thing. But I will say, people like the Nazi's, KKK, White Nationalists will always find something to justify their actions and beliefs, just like terrorists do. So even if Antifa didn't step up, they would still claim some bullshit is the reason why they believe and do the things they're doing.

It's so easy to hate for these people, yet they're cowards when it comes to actually owning up to these bigoted hateful beliefs. Personally, I'm glad groups like BLM and Antifa, I might not agree with all the methods they choose to use, but they are doing something for the better. I can't say that I'm totally against taking violence against such vile groups that believe in the eradication of groups of people either.

 

[kallipolis]

It has been argued on Meet the Press by a representative of the Southern Poverty Law Center that ANTIFA's tactics in Charlottesville actually exacerbated the violence.

Was it the right move? If not, what is?

Where does the extreme right go next if "silenced" by extreme methods by the far left? If driven underground, will they not take up the bombs and terrorism, again?

Give any extremist organisation a platform and they will take advantage...for it is a recruiting, and advertising tool for like minded people.

 

[nyctopgam]

Where does the extreme right go next if "silenced" by extreme methods by the far left? If driven underground, will they not take up the bombs and terrorism, again?

You deal with it when it happens.

There will always be a fringe. There will always be a lunatic fringe. There will always be a violent lunatic fringe.

But you cannot ever let the fringe move to the center of discourse.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Give any extremist organisation a platform and they will take advantage...for it is a recruiting, and advertising tool for like minded people.

Antifa is a group that denies them a platform, like what happened in Boston.

 

[peeonme]

Self defense justifies the use of violence on a personal level. A group has a right to use violence for self preservation when threatened
and harmed by a government, such as in Hitler's Germany.

I don't care for or agree with the white supremacists, however they have a right to peacefully assemble and express their thoughts.
No one should tell a group of any color (or lack thereof) or of any philosophy (even if we don't like what they say) to sit down and shut up.

When we recognize the rights of others, we preserve our own rights.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

There is no such thing as a "peaceful" assembly when you're matching under the beliefs of Nazism or KKK.

 

[luckynumbah7]

There is no such thing as a "peaceful" assembly when you're matching under the beliefs of Nazism or KKK.

^True enough. And Peaceful assembly doesn't cart assault weapons to the 'protest' and call for death, ffs.

You don't bring guns to a mere civil protest. That's not what peaceful protesters do. I feel this needs to be repeated. It's like people are deliberately overlooking some things.

Cough 'Paradox of Tolerance' Karl Popper Cough Sitting back and handwaving their behavior as them "Having Rights" is bullshit Cough

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

 

[LeicsDom]

We often look back to the Nazi buildup before WWII began and ponder whether Jewish and other oppressed Europeans should have offered violent resistance sooner.

I think they assumed that it could never be as bad as it turned out. Who could possibly envisage such horrors, even in a Third World country, let alone a supposedly civilised society

 

[NotHardUp1]

My point remains: those at the Southern Poverty Law Center believe ANTIFA intentionally escalates violence in an attempt to get the far right to show their true colors.

However, violence is violence, and it is not safe to assume that the far left is only fighting back in self defense. A review of recent (the last year) of clashes shows that it is not always the right that swings first. I respect the SPLC experienced leaders, and believe that we are headed for a worse state than we have now.

We can't live in fear of terrorism, but I do think we can push the extremists back into methods like the Oklahoma City bombing, and that is somewhere I don't want us to go. That doesn't mean we accept Nazis and Fascists, but it also doesn't mean we strike a hornet's nest and expect no consequences.

It's not possible to outlaw racism or bigotry, but it is possible to outlaw acts of discrimination, and we have. Pushing to silence them altogether will have a backlash. I am sure of it.

 

[peeonme]

My point remains: those at the Southern Poverty Law Center believe ANTIFA intentionally escalates violence in an attempt to get the far right to show their true colors.

However, violence is violence, and it is not safe to assume that the far left is only fighting back in self defense. A review of recent (the last year) of clashes shows that it is not always the right that swings first. I respect the SPLC experienced leaders, and believe that we are headed for a worse state than we have now.

We can't live in fear of terrorism, but I do think we can push the extremists back into methods like the Oklahoma City bombing, and that is somewhere I don't want us to go. That doesn't mean we accept Nazis and Fascists, but it also doesn't mean we strike a hornet's nest and expect no consequences.

It's not possible to outlaw racism or bigotry, but it is possible to outlaw acts of discrimination, and we have. Pushing to silence them altogether will have a backlash. I am sure of it.

I agree and would add that Trump is part of the back lash. Many have been living in anger over the "PC" rules, which they see as a form of censorship.
As you have said, you can't outlaw racism or bigotry and if we drive them underground I fear that many who aren't KKK or Nazis, but have no love for the left will sympathize with the haters and even join their cause.

So, do we protest the protesters? By doing so do we inadvertently promote them?
Most depictions of Nazis or the KKK that I have seen shows them as bumbling idiots who's parents likely met at a family reunion.
I say let them march, protest and speak their mind, while we ignore them.
Paying attention to them only aids their cause.

 

[NotHardUp1]

To ignore the fascists will let their ideas go unchallenged in the public forum. It is our civic duty to meet their ideas and refute them. But, if that means shouting matches, physical attacks, or other ignoble tactics, then I fear those weighing ideas will not necessarily assume the bigots are the only problem. Wrong is wrong. It is well and good to say folks are "defending" liberty, but if they are actually observed as the attackers, in any instance, words will not be a defense.

From the distant seats, it looks like the far left is worried that the far right isn't ugly enough, so their is a strategy to incite ugliness. To be sure, it isn't that the far right isn't ugly and doesn't use violence, but if they are marching without violence, that is indeed a constitutional right and has been for a long time. If the same party that marches peacefully today plots and executes violence in private, that is for the FBI to investigate and prosecute, not for some private citizens to punish through acts of more violence.

Those who simply hate the skinheads or Klan might want to wish them away at any cost, but it isn't that simple, and they won't simply fade away, no matter how small their numbers. And do not think them some Southern group. There are bigots in every subculture in this country, even if a few.

 

[Willie Boy]

One can always decide to show up and peaceably assemble, carrying picket signs stating the facts and leave it up to police on scene to deal with any violence attempted by assholes on either side.

 

[NotHardUp1]

One can, but the recent history is that ANTIFA is not doing that, but inciting violence. That is the topic of the thread, the change in tactics.

We can all (almost all) agree to denounce Nazis and White Supremacy, but the method is not unimportant. It was a debated during MLK's time, and Gandhi's, and it is yet.

 

[Willie Boy]

If we had fewer idiots in this world and more common sense......

Well then issues like these would begin to disappear.

 

[Sausy]

The problem with the antifa movement is that they are at core predominantly far left radicals who don't recognize the state to look out for the interests of protecting the peace. They are waiting to go off, and not always only against the worst of the worst but even less dedicated conservatives. They are certainly not evil at the Nazi/white nationalist level, but they are red meat for the nutcase right base. People like Rush Limbaugh are seriously warning of an impending Civil War II too, and of course in his crackpot narrative it is socialism and communism that is the enemy, not white nationalism or fascism. Too much provocative behavior on their part an the antifa movement may inadvertently help bring on civil strife... maybe that is what both sides on the extremes want, a fight to the finish. A fight NOBODY can win or come out of looking good.

There is something to be said if the time came that they could do violence to those they hate and bring on civil war, the time to stand back and not fight would change. But as much as possible the fight against fascism and white nationalism has to be fought with peaceful but determined methods. That we have a President who fails to assert the moral authority of the office to denounce fascism categorically and specifically, though if he suspects a Muslim involved in a terror act despite his determination to "wait for the facts" he pretty quickly comes out swinging against them... reflects on a man bereft of character and incapable of bearing the weight of his office solemnly and responsibly.

 

[kallipolis]

If we had fewer idiots in this world and more common sense......

Well then issues like these would begin to disappear.

In an ideal world we could all agree....then there's reality, that defies reason.

 

[peeonme]

To ignore the fascists will let their ideas go unchallenged in the public forum. It is our civic duty to meet their ideas and refute them. But, if that means shouting matches, physical attacks, or other ignoble tactics, then I fear those weighing ideas will not necessarily assume the bigots are the only problem. Wrong is wrong. It is well and good to say folks are "defending" liberty, but if they are actually observed as the attackers, in any instance, words will not be a defense.

From the distant seats, it looks like the far left is worried that the far right isn't ugly enough, so their is a strategy to incite ugliness. To be sure, it isn't that the far right isn't ugly and doesn't use violence, but if they are marching without violence, that is indeed a constitutional right and has been for a long time. If the same party that marches peacefully today plots and executes violence in private, that is for the FBI to investigate and prosecute, not for some private citizens to punish through acts of more violence.

Those who simply hate the skinheads or Klan might want to wish them away at any cost, but it isn't that simple, and they won't simply fade away, no matter how small their numbers. And do not think them some Southern group. There are bigots in every subculture in this country, even if a few.

Obviously we would challenge their twisted thoughts in a public forum, we would oppose their philosophies as well.
When I said ignore them, I meant that we and others should not confront them physically, we should meet their ideas and refute them... that goes without saying.
However, we should not meet with them, this brings in the press and gives them a spot on the evening news.

 

[kallipolis]

To those who wish to confront hatred, with hatred....and violence, with violence...my reply is....good luck, go ahead.

When you're lying on a cold slab in a mortuary it really doesn't matter whether your killer was a Nazi, or an Anarchist.