Anyone speak and write Arabic?

[irydion]

Arabic is subjective and written to sound like it is spoken. there are baseline rules, but unlike english, things change from region to country, and should always be written accordingly.

I have doubts if an Arab not knowing your dialect would understand it, especially with your transcription. Dialects are NOT written. There are some that write in egyptian dialect, or even others, but people are learned at schools to write in classical arabic, not dialect. Your transcription is most likely your own invention.

these translations scream... i learned arabic at the western university.....

(...)

if you want a resolution to this issue, you need to get to know the guys and give them a reason to respect you.


signs and notes simply wont help.

These translations are in good classical arabic. Of course, a native speaker would perhaps write it otherwise, but there's no grammatical mistake and the meaning is clear.
The text is not rude. If You find it too harsh, enough to get rid of the part about them having to pay for mending the washing machine if it breaks.
If that's not enough, You may add additional "softeners" like "ahlan wa sahlan bikum fi manzilina/biladina" or whatever...

Instead of posting your usual stuff about meaningless respect etc, once give some sollution. How is He going to get to know these guys if they don't share a common language? Winning somebody's respect is a matter of years...
What our friend needs here is to solve the washing machine problem. I see no reason why leaving them a note would make our friend look like a "judgemental non-Arab". Lord, You should have some respect for someone else's feelings, but how on earth would leaving a note in the official version of their language (and not their own dialect) hurt them, I can't tell.

Does all that also mean, Andreus, that any Arabic-speaking guy would not be "respected" if his speech doesn´t sound like that of his intelocutors in another Arabic dialect?

of course it does...lol

You say strange things, Andreus. Arabs are actually pleased when somebody speaks arabic, and classical arabic is revered - because of Al-Qur'an, because of classical poetry. Truth is that classical arabic sounds official, artificial even, especially in cases like this, but at least it's probable they have learned it and they will understand it, while it is not sure whether they will understand Andreus' dialect, especially written. Knowing where are they from would make it easier.

 

[Andreus]

Erydion

you are a jewish man from poland who has taken great pains to lecture me on Islam and arabic in about half of your posts here at JUB.

You intentionally went out of your way to INTENTIONALLY insult muslims at JUB with your hate rhetoric.

in the religion forum you were given infractions and points for it

now.... leaving a note asking for cooperation with a washer and dryer with your note in koranic arabic is like believing that a christian would respond well to a note from an arab that says.... " wouldst thou depositeth thine and mine clothing withineth the basket of the lord."

they would kind of take it as sarcasm.

i really dont know why or how you think you are more knowledgeable than me on my own language and culture, but you need to just step back and let it pass.

 

[belamy]

irydion, people have taken attitudes ranging from mockery to disgust for my speaking (not "writing" ) well-structured phrases, and that not just in English, but in a language with such despotic grammar and usage like French... now if a French citoyen can mock me, not for speaking like in an old classical French tragedy, but simply "well", which is automatically the equivalent of "too well", I can give credit to what Andreus said about Arabic.

For ordinary "good" people "language" is not about thinking and structuring, not even "communicating", which is the official lie supposedly backing the common belief (or viceversa, whatever), but mimicking with their blahblahing what other people in their community blahblah, which is simply what Andrs said.

 

[Andreus]

and for the other guys who actually want a real answer, forget irydions comments.

Arabic can be a tricky tricky language and culture for westerners to get their heads around. People tend to spell as they speak, and the poetic nature of arabic is dependant upon understanding what region the speaker and/or writer is from. Often words are left intentionally vague and infer many things by the other posible methods that they can be translated.

it has the effect of using serious "puns" as a valid method of communicating ideas beyond the words they write.

just writing in script changes the spelling and can seriously alter the meaning of a sentence, and that has everything to do with dialects.

the problem is that when you convert to script it gets VERY complicated. a word suddenly can become spelled as another word is and unless you understand the perspective of the speaker it is imposible.

for example.... in english, a chav can write as he speaks and use the word.... init

that can be misinterpreted as shorthand for "initially" by an american reader

but it means.... "Isn't it" ... to a chav

southern americans use slang for the same things such as ... Ain't it

Yall is another one that when written as spoken, which often happens, can confound a non english speaking reader. the northern east coast version of it is Youse guys.

you have to understand the sspeakers first before their culture.

as a linguist i can tell you that one quarter of the battle of understanding a language is understanding the culture of the person that uses the language. If you are unable to approach the language from the perspective of the native user, you are going to sound like Borat OR ERYDION when you try to speak.

 

[belamy]

You know, Andreus it absolutely right in one thing because it ´s not a personal opinion of him or mine or anybody´s: it can be easier now to understand Jurassic Latin, old French or the Chinese classics because, however dependant sometimes they be on information now lost, they are never as big an obstacle as meeting the authority of the judgments of a living society... and that is also why the universal academia is full of fools passing for brilliant and authoritative minds.

 

[irydion]

Erydion

you are a jewish man

I am?

You intentionally went out of your way to INTENTIONALLY insult muslims at JUB with your hate rhetoric.

Nope. I just gave three (four) possibilities applied to a man that claims to be prophet. Any prophet. You're a person who not only don't know what discussion is, isn't able to make any valid point, but, when someone disagrees with your opinion, You run away crying claming it's not fair and it has to be banned....

in the religion forum you were given infractions and points for it

You are making a fool of yourself. I was given infraction due to over-zeal of moderator, who, after seeing me claim that Muhammad was illiterate, gave me an infraction, because he thought it's a slander. After me enlightening him it is actually what muslims believe in, I was apologised and the infraction was deleted...

and for the other guys who actually want a real answer, forget irydions comments.

Please, please, tell us what our friend should say to these guys. I'm all ears.

as a linguist i can tell you that one quarter of the battle of understanding a language is understanding the culture of the person that uses the language. If you are unable to approach the language from the perspective of the native user, you are going to sound like Borat OR ERYDION when you try to speak.

General concepts and slanders as usual, no actual input.

now.... leaving a note asking for cooperation with a washer and dryer with your note in koranic arabic is like believing that a christian would respond well to a note from an arab that says.... " wouldst thou depositeth thine and mine clothing withineth the basket of the lord."

they would kind of take it as sarcasm.

irydion, people have taken attitudes ranging from mockery to disgust for my speaking (not "writing" ) well-structured phrases, and that not just in English, but in a language with such despotic grammar and usage like French... now if a French citoyen can mock me, not for speaking like in an old classical French tragedy, but simply "well", which is automatically the equivalent of "too well", I can give credit to what Andreus said about Arabic.

For ordinary "good" people "language" is not about thinking and structuring, not even "communicating", which is the official lie supposedly backing the common belief (or viceversa, whatever), but mimicking with their blahblahing what other people in their community blahblah, which is simply what Andrs said.

There's a big difference between arabic and french in that matter. French language itself is evolved latin and changes constantly. There are not major differences between spoken and written language, though. Case is different with arabic. The language of Al-Qur'an is a bit harder, and language of the pre-islamic poetry is a nightmare sometimes, but mostly due to bizzare wording. Arabic has a unimaginably rich vocabulary. Classical arabic has not changed drastically for the last almost 1500 years. I don't see almost any difference reading a modern newspaper of a 1000 year old chronicle. And this is the language children learn at schools. They do not learn dialects at schools. Classical arabic remains the language of great majority of literature, and, with smaller and bigger dialectic influences, of tv news and some films and tv programs. If a leader of a country or a party, imam or bishop is having a speech - he's at least trying to say it in classical arabic. And they often succeed. Ibn Ladin speaks splendid classical arabic, and so does Nasr Allah. And many more politicians. And no-one seems to be laughing at them.
Indeed, they may be suprised at the use of classical arabic in an every-day life, but not to that point. I'm sure they watch tv news, read newspapers or books... so they know this language. And they do not necessarily know your dialect.
I think they'll be suprised at seeing any note in arabic
Again, if You find my note written in too classical arabic, I will gladly see your version.

i really dont know why or how you think you are more knowledgeable than me on my own language and culture, but you need to just step back and let it pass.

I know lots of Poles not knowing too much about their culture or language... and it applies to any nation. Just because You're an Arab, or so You claim to be, it doesn't mean You're an authority. Au contraire sometimes.

P.S.
it's Irydion, not Erydion.

P.S.
Ana ahki bi-al-ammiyah kaman (shway)

 

[Andreus]

oh really?

you proved that muhammed was a liar?

you proved that ronboy was overzealous?

you proved that muslims believe that muhhamed is a liar?

i doubt that you are telling the truth here

and i want nothing banned.

dont be foolish

 

[belamy]

I know lots of Poles not knowing too much about their culture or language... and it applies to any nation. Just because You're an Arab, or so You claim to be, it doesn't mean You're an authority. Au contraire sometimes.

That´s right, but that´s when you understand "culture" and "language" from an academical point of view. It´s like when the Chinese are amazed that you handle their grammar, know more characters and literary texts than they do. But I think Andreus was referring to another level, the one in which a Chinese can prove he is more Chinese than you after all... no... proving him/herself a "real" Chinese when showing a knowledge closely tied to everyday life, that is, proving being Chinese in 2006, while your academical knowledge abstracts you from any temporal or geographical location.
So you provided that "academical abstraction" in your text, and Andreus was questioning its validity in a given context. You two defend valid positions but you two may be too zealous about it: Andrs position may seem more "theoretical" since he hasn´t engaged himself with a text for the situation given as a problem, but it´s only that he knows how complicated that situation may in fact be and needs more information.
Your solution may be enough, but you seem too satisfied about it.

 

[irydion]

oh really?

you proved that muhammed was a liar?

Did I say I've proven that? Did I say I think so, even? I believe some people may think that and it's their right.

you proved that ronboy was overzealous?

He admitted he's made a mistake

you proved that muslims believe that muhhamed is a liar?

huh? Where did I say I've proven muslims believe Muhammad is a liar? Please, read post first before You reply to it...
I've proven that muslims believe Muhammad was illiterate. And it's saying Muhammad was illiterate what gave me an infraction.

and i want nothing banned.

Who, oh who wanted the religion forum to be closed?

Man, You're something.

So you provided that "academical abstraction" in your text, and Andreus was questioning its validity in a given context. You two defend valid positions but you two may be too zealous about it: Andrs position may seem more "theoretical" since he hasn´t engaged himself with a text for the situation given as a problem, but it´s only that he knows how complicated that situation may in fact be and needs more information.
Your solution may be enough, but you seem too satisfied about it.

I am not. I've already written, in the beginning, that i'm used to reading classical poetry and chronicles, and not talking about washing machines. I've admitted it may seem artificial and that, if they are not learned, they may even not understand it. I've said it may seem to harsh and proposed changes to it. Etc.

But Andreus dismissed my version hastily, and has not given any sollution himself. And when it comes to dismissing my text, it has more to do with his anger with me than actual cultural problem. No Arab shall be angry at speaking classical arabic to him. Of course I am defending my version, because yet there's no alternative to it. If Andreus manages to teach You to give them information in their own dialect it will probably be better, but let him do it, not only talk about it. Yet, we don't know what their dialect is, we don't know if Andreus knows their dialect etc.

Bah, He knows how complication the situation may be... How touching. He hasn't discovered America, as we say, when he claimed he needs to know where these guys are from. it's obvious if you want to speak dialect. But the rest I find unnecessary. Our friend doesn't have to study arabic culture to ask them not to destroy their common washing machine. Or at least shouldn't have to. Did they study the culture of the country they have settled in? Did they at least learn the basics of the language? No. I don't see anything they may be angry with it that note if You take out the part about compensation anyway. Too impersonal? Let them get used to that. And there's no sollution to it anyway.
I would go to them personally and talked with them, with all the usual stuff like asking about health, family etc. But there's no such possibility in our friend's case.

I have an alternative sollution: hook up with some nice arabic guy and on his way out, let him tell them personally what's your problem

 

[irydion]

Before You go with my script, I'd better correct it - they do not have to be threatened with payments. They may treat it as an attack.

but I can not correct it. My laptop is broken right now.