Arm the teachers, am I slow or is that idea completely insane

[Kulindahr]

We have armed security in colleges/universities, airports, government offices, even churches these days. Should we offer less safety for our children? We don't need to arm teachers or janitors or the lunchroom lady. We already have paid National Guard, Air Force and other service people who work as military police within the country. They could be utilized with no further cost to the schools.

Um, no -- that would lead to the militarization rareboy imagined.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I'm not claiming anything is "foolproof", only that the claims of emotional reaction and wild shooting are ridiculous

You lost me, teachers-- (who clearly didn't enter that profession because they love thrill-seeking, adventure and action) are going to be calm, level-headed and emotionless as there's a killer on the loose and they're expected to take him down? What universe are you living in? What realm of reality is this? It sounds like a really really really bad action movie.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Nobody has to mention psych evals for the simple reason that under many state laws teachers would be acting as security personnel, and you can't get licensed as a security person without a psych eval (there are states which are exceptions, but the number is decreasing).

I watch this issue a lot, and I rarely see any "OH NO THEYRE COMING FOR MY GUNS" stuff. On gun sites, it's mostly "gun control has yet to show any evidence it works in the U.S., so how do we keep kids safe?" The "coming for our guns" is secondary.

I cannot wait to hear your response about how black teachers and students should feel about this. We already have a hate-hate relationship with guns as we tend to end up dead whenever they're around whether we're a criminal, a psych doctor trying to handle a mental patient, armed, unarmed, compliant, non-compliant. And then there's that magical phrase that makes killing a black person ok "I was in fear for my life."

If I were a black teacher the last thing I'd want with an active shooter situation and police entering the building, weapons drawn, would be holding a gun. The police don't know I'm a teacher they just know I'm a black man with a gun. And what about black students? How long will it be before a teacher fires on one of them because (get ready for it) they feared for their life?

Nothing about this seems remotely practical even if we could afford to arm our teachers.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

You lost me, teachers-- (who clearly didn't enter that profession because they love thrill-seeking, adventure and action) are going to be calm, level-headed and emotionless as there's a killer on the loose and they're expected to take him down? What universe are you living in? What realm of reality is this? It sounds like a really really really bad action movie.

For real. If there are POLICE standing around doing nothing for whatever reason during a tragedy like this what makes one think a Teacher is going be any different? Not necessarily just because of the occupation, they are also human.

Armed guards tends to be the first target if there are any -- and as we just saw in Florida, if they aren't the first target they don't always act anyway.

As for being mentally equipped, according to a Recon Marine on one gun site, no one is ever mentally prepared for handling a gun in a crisis until they actually encounter the crisis, and then either they are or they aren't. It helps to train ahead of time, since that makes people a bit more ready, but until it actually happens, no one can say how they'll react.
I'd heard that before from trainers, but from a Recon Marine it's darned convincing!

I've trained for defending my home in case of an invader, but (especially now that my mom is gone) I really don't know if I could actually shoot an invader; teachers who train in their school for possible invaders will be in the same boat.

I've made this argument numerous times on here over the years but you've always shot it down.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I cannot wait to hear your response about how black teachers and students should feel about this. We already have a hate-hate relationship with guns as we tend to end up dead whenever they're around whether we're a criminal, a psych doctor trying to handle a mental patient, armed, unarmed, compliant, non-compliant. And then there's that magical phrase that makes killing a black person ok "I was in fear for my life."

If I were a black teacher the last thing I'd want with an active shooter situation and police entering the building, weapons drawn, would be holding a gun. The police don't know I'm a teacher they just know I'm a black man with a gun. And what about black students? How long will it be before a teacher fires on one of them because (get ready for it) they feared for their life?

Nothing about this seems remotely practical even if we could afford to arm our teachers.

You know what, I feel completely ignorant about not thinking about this aspect of it all and it's a very good point.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

You know what, I feel completely ignorant about not thinking about this aspect of it all and it's a very good point.

Philando Castile (whom the NRA completely ignored) was a licensed gun-owning teacher. Still ended up dead. Black people just never win when guns are involved whether criminal or not. And this is how I know they don't give a shit about black people, that particular case was their calling card, (legal) gun-owning American shot by police for no reason. You'd think they would've been all over, under, inside and outside that shit. Nope. Not a peep. Let a white guy get shot by police (who won't be charged with his death) and they'll be ready to storm the White House.

 

[Dystopian]

Factual, albeit they're only as safe as the teacher is capable of neutralizing the threat. Which leave MUCH to be desired for teachers who aren't physically or mentally equipped to handle a gun in a crisis. In that vein armed guards sounds waaaaaaaaay more plausible than give every teacher a gun.

The issues: 1) Automatic weapons available to the public with inadequate background that have been used in multiple mass murders at schools, concerts, etc, 2) Our schools are "gun free zones" and defenseless against potential shooters. The options are to limit access by the general public to assault weapons and increase background checks, or arm the schools against people with automatic weapons. Whither assault weapons? A simple question: Why? How could these military grade weapons even have made it to the market place? What if I get a tank and a bazooka to defend myself? Alternately, it is suggested by no less than POTUS that teachers be armed, and even incentivized to be armed. Wow. Our teachers are admirable. Teachers are people and like any others, are subject to problems and issues. Fucking their students, drugs, alcoholism, domestic violence, the gamut of human experience and frailty. Teachers have to deal with a different set of students than when many of us were in school. They are overworked and underpaid. In other words, arming teachers reflects flawed reasoning: First and foremost, that teachers are any less likely to go postal than other members of society, and secondly, that even a competent, trained teacher would be at a definite disadvantage against an attacker with an automatic weapon(s). Two approaches to the problem of mass murderers facilitated by open access to military grade weapons. One limiting access to weapons fore which there is no justification to be in marketplace in the first place, and the other putting even MORE firearms in to the educational environment as a deterrent in schools. WTF? Maybe I want to go back and take post grad classes to be safe? Assuming fortified schools are the best choice, the rest of us are left with neighbors, coworkers and anyone who wants to shoot up a church, a concert or any public venue. This is an object lesson on the power of lobbying and political contributions in the tens of millions to those elected to act in the best interest of their constituents...Knowing if they do the obvious right thing, they may lose millions in campaign contributions. This is NOT an issue limited to schools. It is pervasive in society, and affects all of us. Throwing more guns at the problem of gun control is not a viable solution.

 

[gsdx]

^ And the NRA are already balking at the talk of upping the age requirements and banning bump stocks. They should be forced to pay for the funerals and medical expenses of the victims. That should shut them up.

 

[bankside]

All the students will have a better chance if someone already there on the premises can neutralize the shooter sooner than the twenty minutes or so it would take the police to even arrive.

Imagine what a chance they’d have if we neutralized the shooter by just taking their guns away in the first place.

 

[gsdx]

Imagine what a chance they’d have if we neutralized the shooter by just taking their guns away in the first place.

He doesn't get that there were people outside the school whose jobs it was to neutralise the shooter but stood there with their trigger fingers shoved up their asses. They were trained to kill. What chance does a teacher with a classroom full of panicking kids have?

 

[bankside]

Welcome to Trump High. We have the best teachers, the very best. We’re making high school great again. Take Earl here, he’s a shitty physics teacher, but he finished first in his class at marksmanship in his B.Ed. program. That’s the kind of quality we hire here at Trump High.

The US died at Sandy Hook. It slides more and more into “failed state” territory every day. About the only thing that could revive the corpse is those kids, the whole generation, just boycotting schools entirely from a given day. It’s not like their education can prepare them to contribute to, or benefit from, a “society” and they would be smarter for every class they skip at Trump High anyway.

With a youth revolution, an American election not controlled by the Russians, and a constitutional amendment, they might be able to prune away the tumour that has grown in the place of reason and disarm the everyday nut jobs that keep this charade going to finally live in peace.

 

[bankside]

A story about something completely different.

“There are spike belts all over the roads and they keep puncturing my tires. We need to put a stop to this!!!!”


-What do you mean?

It’s rediculous, I cant drive anywhere safely and this is the third time this month I’ve had to have my tires replaced because those things just shred them! We should just get rid of them!

-WHAAAAATTT????!!!!!???!!!!!1!!!!1!!!

There is no fucking purpose to everybody running around laying spike strips across public roadways and we should just round them up and destroy them. The cost to everyone is too great. Thousands of people drove off the road and died because of spike strip mishaps last year alone!

-OKAY FIRST IF ALL I use them on my properteh to stop riffraff from quadding all over my private land!! Boy... if you don’t know where to dodge on my property, I’m gonna rip you a new tire hole, buddy!!! Oh yeah!! First you swerve left, then right, then left! Left again by the pine tree then-AND NEVER YOU MIND!!! All YOU need to know is anybody comes on my property is going to get their tires messed up!!!!!!! Tires messed up baddddd!!! It’s MY land!!!!!!1!!!1!

Oh for fucks sake. “It’s my properteh..” MKay fine. What about the public roads then? Why do we have to all keep dying just so you can stop a couple of douchebags from leaving tire tracks in your [STRIKE]weedy-overgrown-meadowy-bushy-scrubland thing[/STRIKE] lawn out behind your cabin?

-Two damn good reasons: first, I had to swerve around the spike strips on the road myself and blew two tires. The risk is real!! So, I rolled out a couple myself to catch the bastard that’s been laying them. I could have been carjacked! I could have died! I lay them out for self defence, to keep the neighborhood safe!! We all do! It’s the only way to catch these bastards and stop them from laying out spike strips. If we didn’t do it, nobody could drive anywhere!
Second: it’s my right!! The founding fathers said that I have a right to arm myself, and I already said I lay them out for self defence, that’s all the proof I need. It’s self-evident.

That’s ridiculous. You literally just said you need to stop your neighbours but you also admit you all do it. Don’t you think if anyone rolls out spike strips it should be limited to the police? I mean at least they have the training and the authority to stop whomever is sabotaging the roads. And you know, like, a police radio and so on..

-OH THATS ANOTHER THJNG!! You can’t just let the police have spike strips, that’s tyranny!! If anyone touches a spike strip they go mad with power so I need to keep mine handy if I ever need to stop a police car driven by a power-mad tyrannical authority figure who became mad with tyrannical power just by touching a spike strip. I always keep one in hand just for that eventuality! This is what the founding fathers wanted!!!”

Eventuality??!! That’s the most ridiculous tin foil hat conspiracy theory ever. And there were not even paved roads or tires back then that you could spike. You live in a country where you make the laws and hire the police and train the police according to the laws that you pass. How are they going to go mad with power unless you vote for power-mad morons? You’re just making their job harder and more dangerous. And if you even let things get that bad, good luck buddy with your spike strip stopping the police. If they wanted to that badly you are aware they can break out the tank.”

COMMUNIST!! Tyrannical communist traitor!! SHEEP!! Sheep! Sheep. Sheep!! Sheep sheep sheep sheep. Sheep!!!!

Happy driving, folks.

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

of course it is completely insane.
Teachers, security guards, body guards, ... etc could be violent and shoot at everyone for no reason.

This is a very good point. I know I had teachers so mad at me I thought they were going to bust me in face. I saw teacher so mad that their face was blood red with the veins bulging out screaming at a 12th grade student. As a adult I quietly spoke to him and told him to back off and take a time out. There are plenty of student fist to cuffs in schools sometimes a teacher feels threaten or beaten. Afraid and in stress bad things with guns happen very quickly. Also teachers are human in a stressful job with students. They aren't immune to going whacko.
And then there is the real chance that a kid would get the gun, like happens everyday of the week in America and either shoot by accident or on purpose.

This idea appeals to government greedy assholes who get the teacher to do another job for free. Why stop there? Make the schol bus drivers be armed. Its great for the gun manufacture too. I read that if 20% of the teachers were armed the industry would make roughly a billion bucks


Teachers are not trained police officers. If you want paid officers hire them You can't expect one cop with a glock handgun to go against a semi-automatic weapon that would be suicide. In large schools like Parkland with a 45 acres campus you need 2 or 3.

Bad idea but don't expect the gun loons will ever agree with it being a bad idea. Even after their 10 yr old kid somehow got Daddies gun and accidentally shot his friend in the head.

 

[gsdx]

This is a very good point. I know I had teachers so mad at me I thought they were going to bust me in face. I saw teacher so mad that their face was blood red with the veins bulging out screaming at a 12th grade student.

Of course. It's impossible for a grown adult to go postal.

Oh, wait. Never mind.

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, right?

 

[Kulindahr]

You lost me, teachers-- (who clearly didn't enter that profession because they love thrill-seeking, adventure and action) are going to be calm, level-headed and emotionless as there's a killer on the loose and they're expected to take him down? What universe are you living in? What realm of reality is this? It sounds like a really really really bad action movie.

No, I'm watching the news and describing the way teachers have actually reacted, standing up to shooters to protect their students.

 

[Kulindahr]

I cannot wait to hear your response about how black teachers and students should feel about this. We already have a hate-hate relationship with guns as we tend to end up dead whenever they're around whether we're a criminal, a psych doctor trying to handle a mental patient, armed, unarmed, compliant, non-compliant. And then there's that magical phrase that makes killing a black person ok "I was in fear for my life."

If I were a black teacher the last thing I'd want with an active shooter situation and police entering the building, weapons drawn, would be holding a gun. The police don't know I'm a teacher they just know I'm a black man with a gun. And what about black students? How long will it be before a teacher fires on one of them because (get ready for it) they feared for their life?

Nothing about this seems remotely practical even if we could afford to arm our teachers.

You forget history: the reason Martin Luther King got anywhere at all was because of armed blacks, the Deacons for Defense. Without them, his supporters would have been lynched, and it would have all been over.

How many teachers actually assault students annually? Please, show me a figure that's higher than the number of actual school shootings.

 

[Kulindahr]

For real. If there are POLICE standing around doing nothing for whatever reason during a tragedy like this what makes one think a Teacher is going be any different? Not necessarily just because of the occupation, they are also human.

Because they have been different -- they've acted to protect their students.

I've made this argument numerous times on here over the years but you've always shot it down.

Evidence?

 

[Kulindahr]

You lost me, teachers-- (who clearly didn't enter that profession because they love thrill-seeking, adventure and action) are going to be calm, level-headed and emotionless as there's a killer on the loose and they're expected to take him down? What universe are you living in? What realm of reality is this? It sounds like a really really really bad action movie.

Teachers don't have a choice about "thrill-seeking, adventure and action", for the simple reason that mass shooters don't make appointments.

 

[Kulindahr]

The issues: 1) Automatic weapons available to the public with inadequate background that have been used in multiple mass murders at schools, concerts, etc, 2) Our schools are "gun free zones" and defenseless against potential shooters. The options are to limit access by the general public to assault weapons and increase background checks, or arm the schools against people with automatic weapons. Whither assault weapons? A simple question: Why? How could these military grade weapons even have made it to the market place? What if I get a tank and a bazooka to defend myself? Alternately, it is suggested by no less than POTUS that teachers be armed, and even incentivized to be armed. Wow. Our teachers are admirable. Teachers are people and like any others, are subject to problems and issues. Fucking their students, drugs, alcoholism, domestic violence, the gamut of human experience and frailty. Teachers have to deal with a different set of students than when many of us were in school. They are overworked and underpaid. In other words, arming teachers reflects flawed reasoning: First and foremost, that teachers are any less likely to go postal than other members of society, and secondly, that even a competent, trained teacher would be at a definite disadvantage against an attacker with an automatic weapon(s). Two approaches to the problem of mass murderers facilitated by open access to military grade weapons. One limiting access to weapons fore which there is no justification to be in marketplace in the first place, and the other putting even MORE firearms in to the educational environment as a deterrent in schools. WTF? Maybe I want to go back and take post grad classes to be safe? Assuming fortified schools are the best choice, the rest of us are left with neighbors, coworkers and anyone who wants to shoot up a church, a concert or any public venue. This is an object lesson on the power of lobbying and political contributions in the tens of millions to those elected to act in the best interest of their constituents...Knowing if they do the obvious right thing, they may lose millions in campaign contributions. This is NOT an issue limited to schools. It is pervasive in society, and affects all of us. Throwing more guns at the problem of gun control is not a viable solution.

Automatic weapons are "available to the public" only after:

1. For Machine Guns, the firearms must have been made prior to 1986. Since there are only a certain amount of these weapons still in circulation, the prices continue to rise as each year passes.

2. You must make sure it is legal to own these items in the state you reside in. These rules only address Federal Law, not State and Local Laws. (i.e.: don’t even apply if you are in places like New York City, Chicago, and most if not all of California).

3. You must be an American Citizen at least 21 years of age.

4. You must be of sound mind (not crazy or mentally incompetent).

5. You must not be an abuser of alcohol or illegal drugs.

6. You must not have been convicted of any felonies

7. You must pay a $200, one time, Federal Tax (also known as a Federal Transfer Tax or a Tax Stamp). Good ole’ Uncle Sam!

8. You must complete what is called a BATF Form 4 and submit to the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF).

The application requires that you get a signature from your Chief Law Enforcement Officer � stating that he or she has no knowledge that you intend to use the firearm... for anything other than lawful uses.

9. You will need to get fingerprinted and photographed and submit these with your BATF application.

10. Generally, you must wait about 3 months after you have submitted everything before it gets approved. The FBI has to process everything, verify your identity and background, etc.

Besides that, teachers are already having to face attackers; the only question is whether we require them to just die or allow them to be equipped to actually stop an attacker.

And being "left with neighbors, coworkers and anyone who wants to shoot up a church, a concert or any public venue" is a straw man argument; that's not going to change whether teachers are armed or not.


This boils down to a simple moral choice: since teachers do in fact have to deal with mass shooters, and since teachers do actually stand up and defend their students, are we going to side with the shooter and make sure he can't be stopped until the police arrive (if then), or are we going to give teachers a fighting chance to actually stop an attacker?
Morally, refusing to allow teachers to be armed is accessory to murder.

 

[Kulindahr]

Imagine what a chance they’d have if we neutralized the shooter by just taking their guns away in the first place.

Oh, do you have a magical way of telling who is going to be shooting other people? Everyone would love to see that!