Arm the teachers, am I slow or is that idea completely insane

[MakeDigitalLove]

Gun cultures in America are clashing, poor, urban and brown people already devastated by gun violence aren't even really participating in this discussion because they're at risk for gun violence just walking TO school (or the mall, or at home eating a bowl of cereal, or the basketball court). Most of the "arm the teachers" is coming from adrenaline junkies and needle dicks whose only familiarity with guns is collecting or killing defenseless animals, they almost seem to view this like it's a living video game, the excitement with which they insist on more powerful weapons everywhere held by everyone is as infantile as it is disturbing.

There is also the boogeyman aspect, foreign invaders, home invaders, racial division that NRA, and gun enthusiasts like to use to prey on people’s fears to buy a gun.

It’s funny because I grew up in the city and have been outside of my front step and a friends front step on two different occasions where drive bys happened, homes has been robbed multiple times over the years, a couple of those I was home while it happened, harassed by aggressive neighbors and yet I’ve never felt that these situations would be better off with a gun.

People seem to run to the gun solution when even with a gun any of those situations could’ve have been made worse with it.

 

[Kulindahr]

There is also the boogeyman aspect, foreign invaders, home invaders, racial division that NRA, and gun enthusiasts like to use to prey on people’s fears to buy a gun.

It’s funny because I grew up in the city and have been outside of my front step and a friends front step on two different occasions where drive bys happened, homes has been robbed multiple times over the years, a couple of those I was home while it happened, harassed by aggressive neighbors and yet I’ve never felt that these situations would be better off with a gun.

People seem to run to the gun solution when even with a gun any of those situations could’ve have been made worse with it.

The NRA preys on fears?

They don't have to -- liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence "epidemic", despite the fact that this is patently false according to all national figures.

 

[ballcaphair]

The NRA preys on fears?

They don't have to -- liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence "epidemic", despite the fact that this is patently false according to all national figures.

This comment confuses me. Isn't it "the Right" who want us armed and "the Left" who want us unarmed?

 

[Kulindahr]

This comment confuses me. Isn't it "the Right" who want us armed and "the Left" who want us unarmed?

Roughly, yes. Those who want us unarmed use the claim of a crime epidemic to try to convince us we should be unarmed (yes, that's irrational, but that's politics). The argument from the right tends to be whatever will get the NRA the most money at any given time, so it isn't terribly consistent.

Worth noting:

“In every mass killing—every one of them—when someone with a gun arrives determined to stop the killing, it stops; the killer flees or is disabled or is killed or dies by suicide.”

Andrew Napolitano | December 10, 2015

“The FBI’s support for strong citizen awareness, detailed in the “Run, Hide, Fight” protocol, is endorsed by all other federal agencies.[2] The data establish that when prepared, the potential victims themselves can stop the shooter.”
-- FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin January 2014

"Prepared" here doesn't necessarily mean armed with a gun, though it includes that (about one in six cases); unfortunately it doesn't specify what "physically subdued" means for the other cases. Preparedness and resistance is emphasized since half of all instances ended before police even arrived -- and even when police arrived quickly, that doesn't mean they acted quickly, which means they left the potential victims to fend for themselves for substantial amounts of time.

This doesn't fit the narrative of either side.

 

[gsdx]

The NRA preys on fears?

They don't have to -- liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence "epidemic", despite the fact that this is patently false according to all national figures.

I've asked you to support that statement with links to those 'facts' and all you've done is to insult me. It is not up to us to prove your arguments. Just like Trump, you spout stuff as 'fact' and expect us just to believe you because you're spouting them.

Sure, I could just Google it, but That's Not My Job.

EDIT: By the way, maybe the democrats that are saying you are in an 'epidemic', but it is the NRA and the Trump administration who are jumping all over it and using it as a means to get what the hell they want, and that is: MORE GUNS.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

The NRA preys on fears?

They don't have to -- liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence "epidemic", despite the fact that this is patently false according to all national figures.

Please check out the NRA channel itself, it’s all fear mongering. It’s their agenda. The only reason I saw it myself is because of the John Oliver show that showed clips of it.

NRA most definitely preys on fear. That is not to say there aren’t Politicians don’t do it.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Roughly, yes. Those who want us unarmed use the claim of a crime epidemic to try to convince us we should be unarmed (yes, that's irrational, but that's politics).

But turning teachers into security guards is rational? I've yet to hear anyone address how this is going to affect black students and teachers. Maybe you missed it so I'll ask again

1) how would this affect students of color?

2) how would this affect teachers of color?

I cannot imagine any happy ending for either, teacher pulls gun on student because the student got an attitude, or had mental problems and the teacher (here goes that magical phrase) "feared for their life." And there isn't a black American teacher alive who would want to be holding a gun while police are roaming around looking for an active shooter, again, AFRAID FOR THEIR LIVES.

I get how this could make white people feel safe but white gun culture and black gun culture in America are two completely different things. For you guys it's bear hunts and shooting soda cans in the backyard with your buddies, for us it's teaching your 5 year old to duck under a table when they hear gunshots, or to hide behind something if a shootout happens while they're walking to school.

You tell your youth that if they respect and cooperate with armed authority everything is going to be alright, we tell our youth to mind every single P and Q, cooperate and even then we can't guarantee they'll survive.

 

[opinterph]

-- liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence "epidemic", despite the fact that this is patently false according to all national figures.

How do you define “epidemic?”

Please provide a source link (or perhaps a more thorough explanation) to substantiate your statement, “liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence ‘epidemic’.”

Those who want us unarmed use the claim of a crime epidemic to try to convince us we should be unarmed

Is there a compilation published somewhere that identifies the people who “want us unarmed?”

 

[opinterph]

But turning teachers into security guards is rational? I've yet to hear anyone address how this is going to affect black students and teachers. Maybe you missed it so I'll ask again

1) how would this affect students of color?

Remember the violent arrest of a student caught on video in a South Carolina classroom back in 2015?

Students at schools with law enforcement officers account for a disproportionate share of students who face arrest. And some student subgroups are arrested at higher rates than others.

Two Years After A Violent Altercation At A S.C. High School, Has Anything Changed? (NPR; October 2017)

 

[gsdx]

Is there a compilation published somewhere that identifies the people who “want us unarmed?”

I don't recall anyone here saying we want Americans to be unarmed. Not a single instance. I do, however recall many, many instances of people saying that they want assault weapons and bump stocks banned. I also can't recall a single instance of assault weapons and bump stocks being used to keep the bearer safe. Not a single instance.

 

[TX-Beau]

I don't recall anyone here saying we want Americans to be unarmed. Not a single instance. I do, however recall many, many instances of people saying that they want assault weapons and bump stocks banned. I also can't recall a single instance of assault weapons and bump stocks being used to keep the bearer safe. Not a single instance.

What the Dems are saying is that we have an epidemic of gun violence, which isn't really all that surprising considering that amount of guns crazy people are allowed to buy.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Remember the violent arrest of a student caught on video in a South Carolina classroom back in 2015?

Imagine how much more frightening and potentially fatal that could've been if he or the teacher were armed. These gun wackos are really from another universe.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I don't recall anyone here saying we want Americans to be unarmed. Not a single instance. I do, however recall many, many instances of people saying that they want assault weapons and bump stocks banned. I also can't recall a single instance of assault weapons and bump stocks being used to keep the bearer safe. Not a single instance.

I've run out of ways to say "We just want it to be difficult if not impossible for people such as the Florida shooter (history of romanticizing murder on social media, multiple run-ins with police, reported to FBI, recommended to be committed for mental issues, suspended from school 3 days before purchasing an ar15) and the Texas church shooter (unreported domestic violence arrest that would've made him ineligible to purchase his weapon) to obtain a weapon. When people who openly boast about their intention to take human lives are able to purchase high-powered weapons you can't call that gun "control." For the 349873985743rd time, I have no problem with competent, mentally balanaced people owning firearms, and that's even considering the their fantasy of armed heroics doesn't really fall in line with the statistics of how guns are used and who they're used on.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I don't recall anyone here saying we want Americans to be unarmed. Not a single instance. I do, however recall many, many instances of people saying that they want assault weapons and bump stocks banned. I also can't recall a single instance of assault weapons and bump stocks being used to keep the bearer safe. Not a single instance.

Because the majority of Americans aren’t arguing for people to be unarmed, but apparently to people like Kuli that any suggestion of any sort of regulation or idea against guns = taking them away from everyone.

 

[TX-Beau]

Because the majority of Americans aren’t arguing for people to be unarmed, but apparently to people like Kuli that any suggestion of any sort of regulation or idea against guns = taking them away from everyone.

It's a silly dodge just meant to derail discussion. The first one is the insistence on perfection, "...regulation won't catch everyone so it's just a failure and we should buy more guns..." No, regulation won't catch everyone but it sure as hell will catch a bunch of it's effective.

The second dodge is that one, "Slippery Slope," Things like registries and databases eases the way the 'gubmint can find MY GUN when Nancy Pelosi come for it!!!

Then there's the insistence that there is a 2cnd Amendment prohibition on regulation in a country that already fucking Constitutionally regulates firearms.

If you go and look at the ammosexualist arguments, they are all pretty much variations on those three.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

It's a silly dodge just meant to derail discussion. The first one is the insistence on perfection, "...regulation won't catch everyone so it's just a failure and we should buy more guns..." No, regulation won't catch everyone but it sure as hell will catch a bunch of it's effective.

The second dodge is that one, "Slippery Slope," Things like registries and databases eases the way the 'gubmint can find MY GUN when Nancy Pelosi come for it!!!

Then there's the insistence that there is a 2cnd Amendment prohibition on regulation in a country that already fucking Constitutionally regulates firearms.

If you go and look at the ammosexualist arguments, they are all pretty much variations on those three.

Your point about regulation is the same thing they say about laws. Laws don’t stop crime but they’re hell of a deterrent when people do commit them and actually get punished for them.

 

[gsdx]

^ Indeed. Our gun laws don't prevent crime, especially with illegal guns finding their way across the border, but shooting events are rare, and mass shootings are virtually unknown. There is only one of any note and that happened in Montreal in December 1989 when 14 nursing students were killed (14 others were injured) before the shooter killed himself. Memorials are still held on the anniversary.

 

[Kulindahr]

I've asked you to support that statement with links to those 'facts' and all you've done is to insult me. It is not up to us to prove your arguments. Just like Trump, you spout stuff as 'fact' and expect us just to believe you because you're spouting them.

I have not made any insults.

And I expect you to be familiar enough with what you're discussing that I don't have to repeat what the FBI and CDC and others have bee reporting for year after year.

Sure, I could just Google it, but That's Not My Job.

EDIT: By the way, maybe the democrats that are saying you are in an 'epidemic', but it is the NRA and the Trump administration who are jumping all over it and using it as a means to get what the hell they want, and that is: MORE GUNS.

Another lie.

 

[Kulindahr]

But turning teachers into security guards is rational? I've yet to hear anyone address how this is going to affect black students and teachers. Maybe you missed it so I'll ask again

1) how would this affect students of color?

2) how would this affect teachers of color?

I cannot imagine any happy ending for either, teacher pulls gun on student because the student got an attitude, or had mental problems and the teacher (here goes that magical phrase) "feared for their life." And there isn't a black American teacher alive who would want to be holding a gun while police are roaming around looking for an active shooter, again, AFRAID FOR THEIR LIVES.

I get how this could make white people feel safe but white gun culture and black gun culture in America are two completely different things. For you guys it's bear hunts and shooting soda cans in the backyard with your buddies, for us it's teaching your 5 year old to duck under a table when they hear gunshots, or to hide behind something if a shootout happens while they're walking to school.

You tell your youth that if they respect and cooperate with armed authority everything is going to be alright, we tell our youth to mind every single P and Q, cooperate and even then we can't guarantee they'll survive.

Black students in the inner city already know their schools aren't likely to be targets of mass killers for the simple reason that there are students carrying guns, according to a number of students back in the 80s -- and where students aren't carrying guns because the schools actually have security (interestingly, the best security in schools in the country is in mostly black, mostly inner-city campuses). Here's a good read: https://wearyourvoicemag.com/news/why-inner-city-schools-dont-have-shootings (I couldn't find anything from as far back as the 80s when students said no shooter would dare attack their schools).

BTW, your comparison might be true if no whites lived in cities, but that's just not so. And I don't know any parents who "tell their [kids] that if they respect and cooperate with armed authority everything is going to be alright" -- the only places I know of where parents tell their kids that are where the parents are so wealthy their kids will get off any charge made because they get the best justice money can buy.

As for your assertions about black teachers, why would anyone "be holding a gun while police are roaming around looking for an active shooter"? If the police are roaming around, they're pretty badly trained cops, and if the teacher is holding a gun and not in the presence of the shooter and already engaging the shooter, the teacher isn't fit to even have a gun. It's more likely, from the record, that the teacher will encounter the shooter and end the threat while the police are still outside talking over how they're going to deal with it without risking their own skins.

 

[Kulindahr]

How do you define “epidemic?”

Please provide a source link (or perhaps a more thorough explanation) to substantiate your statement, “liberal politicians keep telling everyone we're in a crime and violence ‘epidemic’.”

I don't define it; it's their term. I don't think it applies to guns at all, since there's nothing contagious involved except how the media spreads the idea that shooting a lot of people can make a person famous.

The AMA is probably the primary culprit in the "violent crime epidemic" nonsense; Gabby Giffords is high up in the running along with her husband; Nancy Pelosi uses the term (while she lies about legislation introduced by Republicans), though I think Diane Feinstein beats her for frequency; and media outlets such as the Young Turks, Huffington Post, and Democracy Now! repeat those claims repeatedly.

Is there a compilation published somewhere that identifies the people who “want us unarmed?”

Compilation? I've never heard of one. Diane Feinstein would likely head the list, with her "turn them all in" statement; billionaire Bloomberg whose wealth props up several anti-gun organizations is right up there with her; Hillary Clinton is up there as well, with her hypocrisy about supporting the Second Amendment while calling for gun control after the fashion of Australia and the U.K.