Assisted suicide

[Paathogen]

Now, for OTHERS though, the horrors of agonizing pain, and excruciating emotional collapse is because they've been BAD people, and they're just getting their reward for being bad, and are examples to the rest of us that you DON'T want to be bad and piss god off.

Yup, let 'em live as LONG as they can, by ANY means possible and Quality of Life be damned, damned, damned. god wants it that way.

Dad? Dad, is that you?

 

[Telstra]

my mother died from lung cancer many years ago.

She wanted to die much sooner if she had her own way.

The law is actually very stupid. People should be allow to do what they wish to do to themselves.

 

[Croynan]

There is a problem though. People can be driven to suicide by many factors, poor family background, bullying, societal trends,treatable conditions etc and we should do our utmost to improve people's welfare before dolling out euthanasia pills.

When my brother was on life support with pneumonia
the doctor wanted to let him go because they felt his lifestyle as a paralysed m.s. sufferer was to poor quality and less warranted prolonging it but my Dad convinced them to keep up his treatment and he survived. Now he is still very poorly but is getting married in a month to a fiancee he met a little while back.

He did say to me a few years back that if his condition became unbearable he'd like to be able to end it. but he's managed to cope with a very restricted lifestyle and is in a better frame of mind than alot of able bodied people I know including myself.

i agree with you Andrew. i think your points are well made.

i hope that all goes well for your brother and yourself.

eM.

 

[frankfrank]

a random question(s)

how would one deal with euthanasia if the desire to die is not related to a physical cause but rather to psychological and or emotional factor(s.?)

I didn't look to see if anybody answered this similarly, but...if somebody's decision to self-euthanise is psychological or emotional, they will often find a way to actually do the nasty deed on their own.

In many cases the physical situation which would result in self-inflicted death or euthanasia, also in some way limits that person from some or most of the options of doing it on their own. The assumption of this entire thread, I think, is that the person is terminal, and under extreme/excruciating pain or disability, rather than a desire to die caused by extreme depression.

 

[teadrinker]

I think this is a very tricky area, emotionally, ethically, and morally. Probably BenF46's response is the only single response which could be legitimally applied in all cases.

But, as in so many areas of modern life, the variance is so huge that I don't believe that there's a "one size fits all" answer. For some people appropriate palliative care may be possible and indeed preferable, in spite of their own wishes. For others I also believe that an earlier death may be appropriate. I read a while ago how an elderly man was on a murder charge because he had helped his (also elderly) wife - reduced to a nightmare existence through incurable cancer, in constant agony which not even morphine could help - end her life.

I don't know about you, and I don't even now about me, but I rather suspect that I'd be happy to be labelled a murderer if I could end the needless suffering of a loved one, even at the expense of their life.

As I say, it's a tricky area. I believe Peter Singer, who is very sound about this sort of thing, comes down on the side of assisted suicide. But it's a long time since I read him, and I may be wrong.

-T.

 

[star-warrior]

Actually, old people taking a lot of drugs have at their disposal an array of potentiall dangerous poisons. For instance many drink alcohol & painkillers, medicines for diabetes like metformin and glibenclamide or insulin injection overdose, use of aspirin and blood thinners like warfarin etc.

 

[greaves]

Some info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2676837.stm

Some more info, tho' this is from the the London "Daily Mail", so view with scepticism

 

[Blakiepoo]

I believe that everyone should have the freedom and right to end their life when they feel like it.

As it is, a person can stab themselves in an incredibly painful and messy manner, but they can't have a painless assisted and less complicated passing because.... because... hmm.
Maybe because society thinks if they want to kill themselves they deserve to be alone and in pain. how sick

We have the ability to spare people the most painful moment of their life, yet we don't ... because...


And for the judgemental replies like the one quoted in the above post... Until you feel so bad that death is preferable to life, you have no right to question the choice of a suicidal person.

 

[AdmiraalW238]

The original OP story is certainly tragic but it did not surprise me that the women took her own life following the court case.


The original question posed

Can anyone give a rational reason as to why assisted suicide should be illegal?

I doubt that anyone will be able to give you a proper answer to this. However, preparing something for a loved one to take and then leaving the room/house is something that I would consider but there would be a lot of soul searching before I would go through with it, even if my loved one was in so much pain or the chance of recovering from a terminal illness would put them at peace.

But would I physically inject something or put the tablets or 'drug laced drink' in their mouths that is something I would not do.

Let us look at the medical ethics of the situation of allowing a doctor to administer a narcotic that would end a person's life. There will be very few, if any, medical associations that would permit its members (namely doctors) to assist a suicide. It is why, in the US, that doctors are prohibited from assisting at executions and this is how it should be.

Someone mentioned that they resuscitated an elderly women who had taken an overdose of drugs to end her life and left a letter stating that she did not want to be resusitated. The women's written wishes SHOULD have been adhered to and she should have been allowed to die. If a patient has their medical records tagged DO NOT RESUSCITATE then that should be the main thing.

Yes, suicide leaves a lot of people behind that say "What could we have done to prevent this?" but I look at it this way...they person is at peace.

Do I think laws should be changed to allow someone to assist someone who wishes to end their lives. Yes! Will it happen? No.

There have been cases were someone has been charged with assisting a suicide and I cannot recall of anyone who has been sent to jail for assisting a suicide with the exception of that doctor who has decided to run for Congress.

 

[BenF]

It is why, in the US, that doctors are prohibited from assisting at executions and this is how it should be.

Nope, state executions are carried out by anaesthetists. Anaesthetists are doctors. I expect that it will not be long until executions are carried out by the "Advanced End of Life Nurse Quacktitioner"

Someone mentioned that they resuscitated an elderly women who had taken an overdose of drugs to end her life and left a letter stating that she did not want to be resusitated. The women's written wishes SHOULD have been adhered to and she should have been allowed to die. If a patient has their medical records tagged DO NOT RESUSCITATE then that should be the main thing.

Firstly, one does not have access to medical records and legal papers in A&E.

Secondly, and more importantly, how does one know if she had written the note? How does one know that she was of sound mind if she did write the note?

Like I say, easy to criticise from the sidelines.

 

[Kulindahr]

Suicide is actually a fairly common cause of death related to interminable mental suffering.

Yeah. * looks around at where five departed friends should be *

thank you Andrew. i think your response is a most legitimate one and one which i totally agree with.

in my view if a patient is dealing with interminably mental suffering i think the option of euthanasia should be an option made available to them.

eM.

But -- okay, I tried suicide. For rather highly unlikely reasons, it didn't work. I've had some good times since then, and accomplished some things, that I wouldn't have.
The biggest reason I'd agree with you is that so many people claim they'd do anything to help someone -- but they don't mean it, and that is a pain hard to live with.

And for the judgemental replies like the one quoted in the above post... Until you feel so bad that death is preferable to life, you have no right to question the choice of a suicidal person.

I'll agree about 92%.
I've been in a space where I was absolutely certain that if I died, sentient beings a billion light years away would look up, puzzled, noticing that the universe had become a more joyful place, but not understanding why. Till you've been in that misery, you just don't have much of a clue.

Like I say, easy to criticise from the sidelines.

From more place than one.

 

[BenF]

Ben, I think some of the laws might be different here in the States.

If the note is constructed properly, it has to be signed, notarized, and witnessed. Moreover, it usually states that if any effort to resuscitate is effected, the resuscitators will be sued with the utmost vigor.

If you had found such a note, how would have you proceeded?

If I had an adequately completed advanced directive about not attempting resuscitation from somebody WHO WAS COMPETENT, I would not have proceeded.

Instead I had a hand written note from somebody I had never met. What would you have done?


PS: Mad people can write quite eloquently too, just have a look at some of the posts on here. It does not make them competent.

 

[Telstra]

Telstra, that's a ridiculous post.

Do you prefer somebody lying in bed, in agony, for years and years? They're going to die anyway.

You may have given yourself very bad karma.

No, i was talking about people who kills themselves without notice.
especially the young fit ones who kills themselves.

 

[Telstra]

Really? Did you ever stop to think what kind of pain a person would have to be in in order to make death seem pleasant and preferable? Maybe the pain of others isn't quite relevant in this particular situation.

i'm not talking about terminally ill people here,
i'm talking about fit young people who kills themselves.

 

[AdmiraalW238]

Nope, state executions are carried out by anaesthetists. Anaesthetists are doctors. I expect that it will not be long until executions are carried out by the "Advanced End of Life Nurse Quacktitioner"

Originally Posted by AdmiraalW238
It is why, in the US, that doctors are prohibited from assisting at executions and this is how it should be.

Let me clarify.

The American Medical Association believes that a physician's opinion on capital punishment is a personal decision. Since the AMA is founded on preserving life, they argue that a doctor "should not be a participant" in executions in any form with the exception of "certifying death, provided that the condemned has been declared dead by another person." The AMA, though, does not have the authority to prohibit doctors from participation in lethal injection, nor does it have the authority to revoke medical licenses, since this is the responsibility of the individual states.

Typically, most states do not require that physicians administer the drugs for lethal injection, but many states do require that physicians be present to pronounce or certify death.

Typically a technician trained in venipuncture inserts the needle

Originally posted by BenF46
Firstly, one does not have access to medical records and legal papers in A&E.

Secondly, and more importantly, how does one know if she had written the note? How does one know that she was of sound mind if she did write the note?

Like I say, easy to criticise from the sidelines.

Originally Posted by AdmiraalW238
Someone mentioned that they resuscitated an elderly women who had taken an overdose of drugs to end her life and left a letter stating that she did not want to be resusitated. The women's written wishes SHOULD have been adhered to and she should have been allowed to die. If a patient has their medical records tagged DO NOT RESUSCITATE then that should be the main thing.

Hmm... I am not critcising what you say you did...I am saying that she had left a letter stating that she did not wish to be resuscitated and her decision should have been adhered to.

You did not say if you found the letter before hand or after...if you found it after then you have done your job...if you found it beforehand then I would not have attempted to resuscitate as it was her wish...saying things like 'How does one know if she wrote the note?' is being pedantic.

However saying "How does one know that she was of sound mind if she did write the note?" you contradict your own post were you said " I remember successfully resuscitating an 83 year old lady who had, with full mental competence..."

 

[Ninja108]

having watched a relative go through a long slow painful death, I don't believe anything to be wrong with assisted suicide for terminally ill people. There is nothing humane about them suffering in pain.

 

[AdmiraalW238]

...successfully resuscitating an 83 year old lady who had, with full mental competence...

Ben, there's a flaw in this logic.

In an emergency situation, there's no practical way anybody's competence could be assessed; you'd NEVER have to follow the wishes of a medical directive.

But you knew that, didn't you?

There is another flaw in his logic in that the women had full mental competence.