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AZ anti-immigration activist convicted of murder

DonnyElmstad said:
Actually, that's incorrect. I know quite a bit about LaPierre's tenure with the NRA.

His performance at CPAC alone is enough for me to see what kind of a person he is.
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If your observations lead you to actually believe your earlier statement, then you know nothing at all about him.

He may to a certain extent be an idiot, but he's not that kind of idiot.
 
rareboy said:
No. Re-read what you and Jack are writing.

We have the motivation for vigilante murder being laid at the feet of government and the revolution in Egypt garbled up in this as well.

Don't lecture me on keeping things distinct things separate.

It is what I'm arguing for.

You and Jack have made up your minds that somehow if the government functioned the way you think it should in this instance, there would have been no need for this woman to have shot and killed these people.

I am saying that it doesn't fucking matter whether the government at any level has or hasn't done its job.

There is no room for minutemen vigilantism in a healthy democratic society and there was certainly no room to rob and murder for the cause.

Everytime I hear 'Well what they did was wrong but I understand what drove the to it', I recoil in distaste. It is a bankrupt rationalization of terrorist acts and extended far enough, makes everything from holding up a 7/11 to 9/11 acceptable as a means of resolving problems outside of the realm of acceptability.

You don't need to agree with me. I actually ran this thread by a Jesuit and a rabbi this morning and they agree with my reading of the responses and the rationalization being offered up.

That is good enough for me.
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There would have been no motive to commit the crime. Motive is different than need. Without motivation, people do not commit crimes. It's as simple as that.

And again, no one here cited her criminal act as being acceptable, so I'd ask you to refrain from saying either Kuli or I have done so.
 
There was no motive to commit the crime.

But let's say you're right.

I don't like the fact that oil prices are high.

I think the government should have done something about it.

But they won't. They allow foreigners and oil companies to raise the price of oil and it is making me really, really angry.
Because of this middle east shit, the price of our oil is going to keep rising until it ruins us. I know it.

I got my neighbours together to go around and threaten the gas stations but it didn't change anything.

So we started to hold up the gas stations to get enough money to buy a 3000 acre spread and build storage tanks to store the gasoline that we get from hijacking tanker trucks.

We're also going to build our own offshore drilling rigs to eliminate America's dependence on foreign oil. Because if we had this, our oil prices would be lowered.

Because the government doesn't seem to realize that high gas prices threaten our national security. They really just don't get it. Do you have any idea how angry that makes me and my neighbours???

A couple of times, we've had to put a bullet into the brain of some clerk who says they can't open the till. And once we had to take out some little kid , because they could have identified us.

As I said to the one clerk 'If the government had only just listened to us in the first place and done something about this, I wouldn't have to be robbing you and putting a slug through your medulla oblongata.'

So you understand that if gas prices were kept where I like them, there would be no motive.

And Kuli's comparisons trying to equate the motives for the murder of the man and his little girl with Egyptians overthrowing a dictator are becoming even more bizarre.

And please stop inferring that I have stated that anyone here actually found the murder of the guy and his kid acceptable. I haven't. What I am saying is that there seems to be some notion that the act was somehow understandable, that somehow government is responsible for supplying the motive for robbery and murder. While I know that no one would accept that I and my gang of marauding thugs actually have a rational basis for our actions, there are way too many people who seem to be quite willing to give this woman some benefit of the doubt because they empathize with her cause.

And that, I'm afraid is the last that I can offer on this topic.
 
Let's keep away from personal comments about another poster's religion. OK?
 
DonnyElmstad said:
Happily. It was a bizarre question in the first place. I was hoping for a reason from laika for the line of questioning, but then I considered the source, and the notion of "reason" suddenly seemed very silly.
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Newsflash: I wasn't the one that asked the question
 
what about the local police?

Anyone know where they are or where here? Ilove it how when the police of arizona fail to enforce laws and protect its people it is just an ignored fact.

The feds, the ones that are hated and need extreme budget cuts right now, are suddenly to be blamed. If its not working with this many employees, they need more, and that goes for the local and federal authorities.

And just a reminder... SHooting someone is not a way to peacefully protest something you dislike.

Shooting someone is called murder and there is no ... NO... moral degree here. You cannot take the life of a fellow citizen for any reason.
 
rareboy said:
And please stop inferring that I have stated that anyone here actually found the murder of the guy and his kid acceptable. I haven't.
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I think you pretty much implied it here:

rareboy said:
Everytime I hear 'Well what they did was wrong but I understand what drove the to it', I recoil in distaste. It is a bankrupt rationalization of terrorist acts and extended far enough, makes everything from holding up a 7/11 to 9/11 acceptable as a means of resolving problems outside of the realm of acceptability.
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Understanding a person's motive for an action isn't the same thing as agreeing that the action was justified. Somehow you've decided that they are the same, used that to mutilate other people's statements, and as the icing on the cake, took it to absurd extremes to show them that they find 9/11 acceptable. I think this is called a 'straw man'.
 
Understanding a person's motive for an action isn't the same thing as agreeing that the action was justified.
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Christ on a cracker here we go again.

Reread all the posts again.

There is no understanding of this person's motive for the act. And when some posters have said they understand it, it has been in the context of 'If the government had done its job...this wouldn't have happened because she wouldn't have been driven to it.'

Okay?

And once anyone makes that connection, every action, no matter how inexplicable or heinous, becomes subject to that reasoning.

ie.....I disagree with the McVeigh, but if the government hadn't murdered two people on Ruby Ridge, he never would have had to blow up a federal office building.

or....I disagree with the 9/11 terrorists, but if the US had left Saudi Arabia and stop supporting Israel, they never would have had to crash planes into two office buildings.

or....I disagree with Hitler, but if the US and Europe hadn't set such punishing conditions after World War I, he never would have had to exterminate 6 million jews, gypsies, homosexuals etc. etc.

Some actions, no matter the motivation that the deranged individuals ascribe to them, are utterly and totally inexplicable. That is where we need to start.

With the simple premise that there was no excuse or rational reason behind the act. Like the murder of the man and his daughter.
 
Kulindahr said:
government's get corrupt, sloppy, irresponsible, and people get pissed.
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The perpetual fearmongering of the media seems to be a huge driving force (e.g. fear of establishment of Sharia law in America on FOX). Many times even fake or insignificant nonsense can get people riled up.
 
poolerboy said:
The perpetual fearmongering of the media seems to be a huge driving force (e.g. fear of establishment of Sharia law in America on FOX). Many times even fake or insignificant nonsense can get people riled up.
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Fear sells papers: fear of Islam, fear of liberals, fear of rural people, fear of educated people, fear of the police...

And it's made easy because there really are people in every category of whom we can legitimately be afraid.
 
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