Video 'Bernie Schools Pelosi On How To Talk Healthcare'

[TickTockMan]

Thank you for your typical pointless dribble about nothing.

You sir are a master debater!

 

[TX-Beau]

You sir are a master debater!

Yeah your tit for tat displays such a massive intellect.

You claim to be a Progressive, WHAT ARE YOU PLANNING TO DO TO CHANGE ANYTHING AT ALL?

 

[TickTockMan]

Yeah your tit for tat displays such a massive intellect.

You claim to be a Progressive, WHAT ARE YOU PLANNING TO DO TO CHANGE ANYTHING AT ALL?

Like all authoritarians you yell and scream to get your way, even online. I am not a child that has to prove myself to anyone, but especially to you.

You have called EVERY regular that is a Bernie supporter on this site a conservative or republican trying to turn people against Hillary. Nothing I say will make you happy. It comes down to you think Hillary is close to perfect and you can not even fathom that we may be right and she is not, even a little.

 

[TX-Beau]

Like all authoritarians you yell and scream to get your way, even online. I am not a child that has to prove myself to anyone, but especially to you.

You have called EVERY regular that is a Bernie supporter on this site a conservative or republican trying to turn people against Hillary. Nothing I say will make you happy. It comes down to you think Hillary is close to perfect and you can not even fathom that we may be right and she is not, even a little.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

So you have no ideas, no plan and no clue.

 

[rareboy]

I think that the plan will remain the same as during the election.

Flood social media with memes and Jimmy Dore videos.

Because that's like policy.

Developing a ground up movement to elect progressive democrats to local and state level positions and to put all the effort into running and electing progressive House and Senate representatives is too hard.

Much better to put all the effort behind one office and just hope for trickle down 'progressivism'.

 

[TX-Beau]

I think that the plan will remain the same as during the election.

Flood social media with memes and Jimmy Dore videos.

Because that's like policy.

Developing a ground up movement to elect progressive democrats to local and state level positions and to put all the effort into running and electing progressive House and Senate representatives is too hard.

Much better to put all the effort behind one office and just hope for trickle down 'progressivism'.

I find it extremely telling that the Windbaggers continue to post whiny threads about horrible Democrats, while saying nary a peep about the Republican Congress and White House which is busy attempting to obliterate anything they claim to care about.

Where is their outrage over that? Oh yeah, the Dems (who were responsible for anything even remotely Progressive) MUST BE EXPOSED!

...Trunp who?...

 

[Kulindahr]

Maybe but they didn't get what Bernie wanted didn't they, and if all they wanted was to fuck over Hillary they were never Progressives in the first place, and they still stuck us all with Trump.

No matter what the excuses you make for them they are not only responsible for the death of Bernie's ideas, they fucked you right up the ass well.

From the current political scene, I'd say that Bernie voters enabled more for progressives by helping get Trump in than would ever have been done if Hillary had gotten elected, because people are seeing just how much they need his ideas.

Oh fuck off with that. It doesn't mean anything and is just basically you being nasty with no point.

No, and no. You exhibit an authoritarian streak constantly in your insulting and degrading words toward Bernie supporters and your insistence that they should have just have essentially shouted "Sieg heil!" and lined up behind Clinton.

 

[TX-Beau]

From the current political scene, I'd say that Bernie voters enabled more for progressives by helping get Trump in than would ever have been done if Hillary had gotten elected, because people are seeing just how much they need his ideas.





No, and no. You exhibit an authoritarian streak constantly in your insulting and degrading words toward Bernie supporters and your insistence that they should have just have essentially shouted "Sieg heil!" and lined up behind Clinton.

I'm an "Authoritarian" because of harsh language?



I realize you got pissy and mouthed off, but really, that doesn't even logically follow - and anyway PLENTY of Bernie "supporters" supported when BERNIE said to stop Trump. If those that refused to help have such tender sensibilities, that isn't my fault.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd run to the defense of the Windbaggers, you yourself are a member of a marginalized political party that has only one accomplishment of note, that of giving Clinton the White House.

The Dems will move right next time around, NOT Left, because the precious snowflakes have informed the Party that they will accept nothing but "Ideological" purity - and if it's true what you say about their ONLY goal being to hate Hillary, they are useless to real Progressives in the first place.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm an "Authoritarian" because of harsh language?



I realize you got pissy and mouthed off, but really, that doesn't even logically follow - and anyway PLENTY of Bernie "supporters" supported when BERNIE said to stop Trump. If those that refused to help have such tender sensibilities, that isn't my fault.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd run to the defense of the Windbaggers, you yourself are a member of a marginalized political party that has only one accomplishment of note, that of giving Clinton the White House.

The Dems will move right next time around, NOT Left, because the precious snowflakes have informed the Party that they will accept nothing but "Ideological" purity - and if it's true what you say about their ONLY goal being to hate Hillary, they are useless to real Progressives in the first place.

"Pissy"?

Speak for yourself. If there's any emotion involved here, it's amusement at the antics of the so-called Democratic Party. With your tone and derogatory language, it seems you're the one getting pissy.


BTW, while they were on the ballot in every state, the Libertarian Party didn't get enough of the popular vote to be statistically significant in '92, and although their candidate in '96 (economist Harry Browne) did almost twice as well as the '92 result he was still barely on the radar with a half-percent of the vote. In neither case were there enough votes to have changed any result. The only time the LP had anything resembling an impact on the presidential election was in 1972 when the LP Vice Presidential candidate got the first-ever electoral college vote for a woman.

If the Dems move right next time it will be because the leadership blew analysis of the situation. If they would get up and actually stand for something, they could get single-payer for those with incomes under 130% of the poverty level -- but they need to be doing what Bernie is now, and fighting for it.
Though it would help if they would fight for a constitutional amendment to define political rights as belonging only to living, breathing individual humans who are either citizens or legal residents -- and if they included in that amendment that every such person would be issued a voter ID at federal expense, it would have a great ploy to get support.

 

[Kulindahr]

Hillary and her ilk were too comfortable with Wall Street, to comfortable with too hawkish a stand in the Mideast, and not particularly comfortable with Middle America... and Middle America helped vote in Obama twice, the second time a little more warily but yet twice they went with hope and change and were left behind. Not all Obama's fault, with an increasingly right wing GOP Congress.. but Obama's lack of great political dexterity(the guy was no Lyndon Johnson or FDR) helped put the Democrats in a bad situation. Where Obama could have REALLY been bold, on health care Medicare for all at least, on real commitment to infrastructure(his quip about lack of shovel ready jobs didn't help him in areas that were very difficult to pull out of the recession) he backed off lest not to scare off the corporations the Dems courted and grew too close to. Truth is for al the bluster on the right about what a socialist he was, he was very hesitant to actually pull off any daring stuff. He even strongly backed the TPP, which is much more a corporate wish list paradise than a real "free trade" deal.

Yes, the Dems were more competent than the Republicans, and certainly there is a sizable difference between the two parties but when push comes to shove BOTH parties are very establishment centered. People who will not go out of their way to really make the system work better for all Americans. Bernie may identify as a Socialist before being a Democrat, but he best symbolizes the "New Deal" Democrat, the kind of Democrat who tries to champion the needs of the regular folks, the left behind ones.... you get them back with an optimistic, inclusive and yes, progressive message. Not wagging your finger and castigating them all as the problem, as troublemakers, as racists and bigots. If Mr. Perez is truly interested in being more representative of the interests of the people and principles over corporations, wonderful. I wholeheartedly would cheer that is a very important step forward for the party and retaking our country back from the hard right. But if this is a ploy to merely rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic.. well, we need to blow up the current system of Republicans and Democrats and start anew because we don't have the luxury of wasting time while we get more divided and antagonistic towards each other. With no change in sight.

Pretty fair analysis.

Bernie has got some rather far-out ideas, but on health care he is merely expressing a facet of what it should mean to be a nation, and especially to be a republic. This nation is defined as "we, the people", and if we are a people then we should make provision for everyone who is part of that people to have basic health care. It isn't just sensible as something because we're (supposed to be) a people, it's economic good sense as well.

The real objection to Bernie from the right isn't actually his socialism; the right has loved socialism when it's for whites -- they just don't like that Bernie wants the same socialism for everyone. I suspect they also object to the idea that every American is just as much an American as they are, and that we are -- and should behave as -- a people, not just a herd of disparate individuals each out for his own and to heck with the rest.

I think the present circus with Trump and company may serve to accentuate for all to see the divide between we, the people and we, the corporations, and that what is good for corporations is often not only bad for the people but reprehensibly so. Free markets are essential for economic matters, as they are in reality the only honest economics, but health care should not be subject to economics, not if we are indeed a people. Bernie doesn't put it that way, but he does get the point across. Trump's antics could serve as the foil by which to draw people toward a few basic adjustments to the Republic to bring us closer to being a people.

 

[Kulindahr]

I think that the plan will remain the same as during the election.

Flood social media with memes and Jimmy Dore videos.

Because that's like policy.

Developing a ground up movement to elect progressive democrats to local and state level positions and to put all the effort into running and electing progressive House and Senate representatives is too hard.

Much better to put all the effort behind one office and just hope for trickle down 'progressivism'.

At the moment it looks like any grass roots movement would have to fight against the official party establishment, which through the election made pretty clear they didn't want to hear from the people on the spot because they already knew it all -- and there's no sign that has changed.

If the Democrats want to make a splash, they should propose not just a law but a constitutional amendment authorizing a program of basic health care for all citizens and legal residents. Shooting high is a great way to land lower than you aim but higher than you expect -- and besides, such an amendment might pass, if pitched right. Do it under banners like this:

 

[Kulindahr]

I find it extremely telling that the Windbaggers continue to post whiny threads about horrible Democrats, while saying nary a peep about the Republican Congress and White House which is busy attempting to obliterate anything they claim to care about.

Where is their outrage over that? Oh yeah, the Dems (who were responsible for anything even remotely Progressive) MUST BE EXPOSED!

...Trunp who?...

When the threads are about why the Democrats blew it and what needs to be different, that's a focus on where Democrats should be going from here -- or on why the Democratic Party has become a joke and needs to be replaced, or at least taken over by people not bought and owned by corporations. When discussing the way ahead, complaints about the people you're trying to throw out are relevant only insofar as they may point to what one's own side ought to do.

 

[evanrick]

first sentence of the reply to this thread is a continued deep denial. why did we waste so much time trying to convince hillary people they were wrong when its much easier to talk to republicans and independent voters?

 

[TX-Beau]

"Pissy"?

Speak for yourself. If there's any emotion involved here, it's amusement at the antics of the so-called Democratic Party. With your tone and derogatory language, it seems you're the one getting pissy.


BTW, while they were on the ballot in every state, the Libertarian Party didn't get enough of the popular vote to be statistically significant in '92, and although their candidate in '96 (economist Harry Browne) did almost twice as well as the '92 result he was still barely on the radar with a half-percent of the vote. In neither case were there enough votes to have changed any result. The only time the LP had anything resembling an impact on the presidential election was in 1972 when the LP Vice Presidential candidate got the first-ever electoral college vote for a woman.

If the Dems move right next time it will be because the leadership blew analysis of the situation. If they would get up and actually stand for something, they could get single-payer for those with incomes under 130% of the poverty level -- but they need to be doing what Bernie is now, and fighting for it.

Though it would help if they would fight for a constitutional amendment to define political rights as belonging only to living, breathing individual humans who are either citizens or legal residents -- and if they included in that amendment that every such person would be issued a voter ID at federal expense, it would have a great ploy to get support.

Sugarpie, I am so far beyond pissy you can't even see there from here, and if the Libertarians are that neutered, then you are exactly what I said you are, a marginalized party with no say in anything.

Real Progressives understand that we aren't going to change the Dems by being marginalized and pouting. We certainly aren't going to be a strong voice in the party by whining on the sidelines. There are two choices, take over the party by occupying elected offices high and low, up and down the country, or become a viable party on our own. The Windbaggers you are so anxious to excuse, aren't willing to do either. As of now, they are just a sixth toe, somewhat sideshow, but ultimately without any purpose.

If the far left had ridden in and saved the rust belt, Bernie would have a hell of a lot of clout with the administration, well, they didn't, they pissed that chance away and gave us Trump.

Also. Progressive-ism isn't populism. Neither is Socialism. Americans unfortunately want socialism without the taxes that make it possible.

 

[TX-Beau]

When the threads are about why the Democrats blew it and what needs to be different, that's a focus on where Democrats should be going from here -- or on why the Democratic Party has become a joke and needs to be replaced, or at least taken over by people not bought and owned by corporations. When discussing the way ahead, complaints about the people you're trying to throw out are relevant only insofar as they may point to what one's own side ought to do.

Yes, and you haven't heard a single Windbagger give us one idea on how to fix anything at all.

I KEEP ASKING! All I get are crickets chirping in the deafening silence.

 

[TX-Beau]

At the moment it looks like any grass roots movement would have to fight against the official party establishment, which through the election made pretty clear they didn't want to hear from the people on the spot because they already knew it all -- and there's no sign that has changed.

This is why I got off the train. Neither Hillary, or Obama, or hell Bernie either when he was trying to be a Democrat, are working to fuck over the little guy. They just aren't, that's just fiction. All of them are trying to do what they think is right for the country. I may not agree with every idea they come up with, but this idea that they just don't care about people is fucking bogus.

 

[Kabluey]

^ one thing that is obvious from the Trump presidency, billionaires look after each other and themselves over everybody else.

The Democrats need to reframe the argument from minorites and sick people versus the white middle class to the rich versus everyone else.

Healthcare is no different. The outcomes matter more than the inputs, and currently the USA has worse overall public health indicators than equivalent developed countries that spend far less per capita on healthcare.

 

[TX-Beau]

^ one thing that is obvious from the Trump presidency, billionaires look after each other and themselves over everybody else.

The Democrats need to reframe the argument from minorities and sick people versus the white middle class to the rich versus everyone else...

That's part of it, but there are other things too. There is an argument to be made for why the centrists (and don't let the Windbaggers fool you, THEY the Centrists, are the majority, not the other way around) moved right. Fact is that for decades the Windbaggers have been sneering at places like Oklahoma, calling them names, dismissing people in the Midwest and the South and that attitude has carried over into a lot of what the Left has become, and into the institutional attitudes of the Democratic party.

Democrats don't even run candidates for most races in Texas. If there is a Dem, most likely he's on his own and has no national or Party support. It's like that in a lot of the country, because people on the Left sat on their arrogance and decided that Wyoming didn't matter.

If the left has a reputation for being precious elitists, there are certainly examples that roundly deserve such criticism.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yes, and you haven't heard a single Windbagger give us one idea on how to fix anything at all.

I KEEP ASKING! All I get are crickets chirping in the deafening silence.

There have been threads about it. I know you've seen them.

 

[Kulindahr]

This is why I got off the train. Neither Hillary, or Obama, or hell Bernie either when he was trying to be a Democrat, are working to fuck over the little guy. They just aren't, that's just fiction. All of them are trying to do what they think is right for the country. I may not agree with every idea they come up with, but this idea that they just don't care about people is fucking bogus.

Oh, come on -- Obama sold out the little guy by caving to corporations through his lifting of a health care plan from a right-wing source!

Protestations of caring when you're busy bowing to the wishes of a very non-democratic and non-republican set of power interests come across as pious platitudes. The only reason I don't call Obama a hypocrite is that he did manage a few things for the people -- unfortunately, pretty much only ones that the corporations don't care about.