Bisexual Forum - Undermining This One?

[Just_Believe18]

As you know, JUB has created a "Bisexuality Forum" that focuses specifically on bisexuals:

This forum is designed for discussion of all issues relating to straight and bisexual issues, whether or not they relate to gay issues.

The forum also states that the "Straight and Bisexual forum" is a place for erotic material. In other words, the purpose of the new sub-forum is going to drive away men from posting on THIS forum for advice and support.

I know bisexual advice threads here have had some issues, however, how does segregating a population of men into their own sub-forum benefit this community as a whole? Does separating bisexuals from gays help or dissuade?

The same thing happened to the Political forums. When they separated "international" issues into its own sub-forum, topics outside of the US were segregated from mainstream posters. The forum, by comparison to others on this site, is virtually dead.

What I'm trying to say is this: I believe this new Bisexual forum is alienating an important segment of our population. If the problem is ignorant gay newbies making generalized statements about bisexuals, how does dividing the community educate them?

 

[looseliam]

Though I was not involved in the decision to create the new forum, I do have some thoughts, opinions:

My philosophy of this site is providing a safe, comfortable environment in which to discuss anything - within reason, of course.

If you peruse some of the bi topics, they're prone to not-so-nice comments from others.

Creating a zone in which like minded people can share and discuss safely is beneficial.

We have a zone in which people who are politically minded may discuss topics that interest them.

Likewise, we now have an area where bisexual men, and women, may discuss topics that are important to them.

Given certain stigmas placed on bisexuals, I find it reasonable for some to seek the guidance, advice of other bisexuals.

People are still free to post here if they so choose.

But that's just my tuppence.

 

[trawler69]

I tend to agree with Just_believe18. This forum is about coming out and relationships. Bisexual guys come out too and they have relationships both Gay and Straight. Many on here class themselves as Bi but are in Gay relationships or have issues with discovering their preferences etc. To split them off into a separate clique merely serves to isolate them from others experiences. I track 3 forums and this is just another to add and I'm sure many won't be bothered to do it. It's not as if this forum was ever clogged with posters in the first place, it was a comfortable and manageable number. Now it is reduced. Shame.

 

[dfwjacker]

As a bi guy, I'm glad it was created

As, looseliam said... hopefully it will provide a place for bisexuals to help or seek the guidance and advice of other bisexuals without getting bombarded with negative comments.

 

[looseliam]

I tend to agree with Just_believe18. This forum is about coming out and relationships. Bisexual guys come out too and they have relationships both Gay and Straight. Many on here class themselves as Bi but are in Gay relationships or have issues with discovering their preferences etc. To split them off into a separate clique merely serves to isolate them from others experiences. I track 3 forums and this is just another to add and I'm sure many won't be bothered to do it. It's not as if this forum was ever clogged with posters in the first place, it was a comfortable and manageable number. Now it is reduced. Shame.

Well, I've only gone back a month or so and I've come across quite a few threads in the old BI forum that would fit very well in this forum.

But the user decided he was more comfortable placing it in the BI forum. It's not for me to disagree with him/her.

I wonder how many users have not posted his relationship/coming out issues because he didn't feel comfortable posting in a forum of predominately gay-oriented men.

The new forums is here for now. We will see how things work out. If changes need to be made, I'm sure the brass will make them.

-Liam

 

[Eagle653]

As you know, JUB has created a "Bisexuality Forum" that focuses specifically on bisexuals:

The forum also states that the "Straight and Bisexual forum" is a place for erotic material. In other words, the purpose of the new sub-forum is going to drive away men from posting on THIS forum for advice and support.

I don't think this is true--at least I hope not. Since I was one of the people who suggested the new bisexual issues forum, maybe I can explain more of what was behind it.

The idea actually came from various members who requested it. We talked about with Seth and JD for about 6 months, weighing the pros and cons about it. Certainly one of the cons was the fears Just Believe stated, as well as a few others.

There were two overriding needs to do it, though. First, about half of the posts in the Bisexual and Straight Men Forum dealt with bisexuality as a concept and issues relating to bisexuality. Given that that forum is in the naughty-bits section, it was designed for the posting of bi porn and erotic bi situations, stories, etc. Since that is not a No Flame Zone, bisexuals felt targeted and verbally victimized there. Moving those threads to Coming Out and Relationships helped in some cases, but some posts had nothing to do with coming out nor relationships--they had to do with bi issues. So, that wasn't an ideal solution, either.

Second, the whole topic of bisexuality seems to be a lightening-rod on JUB for some reason. People get more passionate about that than they do circumcision. We needed to establish a place, in a No Flame Zone, where this topic could be explored and discussed in peace and civility. Moving the old Bisexual and Straight forum, en masse, to Coming Out or even to a No Flame Zone would not have worked, because that would have eliminated the bi porn forum and that wasn't fair. We talked about making the bisexuality discussion forum a sub-forum of Coming Out, but JD felt it would get more traffic as a stand-alone forum.

So, we created a dedicated forum for it. I really don't think it will syphen traffic off Coming Out. However, Just Believe's point about some bisexual issues being coming out--and relationships--is well taken. Posters will need to decide between the forums when a topic overlaps, as in some cases, a post could fit in either forum.

There were clearly some cons in doing this, but I think the overall good of doing it outweighs the negatives. Time will tell. If you all have any suggestions, or think anything needs tending to in the transition, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[quasar]

I wanted some other people to post as I feel guilty about it looking like the Mods are ganging up on you, but that is not our intention!

To add to what has already been said - and perhaps reinforce a couple of points - the creation of the new forum is two-fold.

Firstly it provides a safe environment for serious and not so serious issues to be discussed without the fear of ignorant, overtly judgemental and flaming remarks. This has shown to be successful in the other No Flame forums which were created for precisely the same reasons.

Whilst I accept (and agree with your) concerns about segregation, the simple fact of the matter is that many threads were ruined by the immature, bullish, and bigotted remarks made by some of our gay members, which started 'flame wars' and therefore added nothing constructively to the discussion - the knock-on effect being that people stopped getting involved in discussions or even starting them.

In addition, because the old forum was in Naughty Bits, there was confusion amonst newbies as to where they could ask advice as the Coming Out/Relationships forum seemed more geared towards gay coming out issues than bisexual coming out issues and relationships. And has been pointed out, these issues will get as much attention regardless of in which forum they're posted

Secondly, it's creation finally clears the last area of Naughty Bits from non-sexual/erotic discussion and leaves that section entirely 'sexually based'. This is something that needed to be done ready for some of the new developments that are coming up in the next few months.

Only time will tell how successful a move this was, however, if yesterday was anything to go by, in the two years I've been here, the number of people using the two forums was more than I've ever seen using the original one.

Just my twopenneth.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Thank you for responding mods. I've read all of your posts but I still, fundamentally disagree.

As a college graduate moving into the field of teaching, one of the principals of student grouping is that we differentiate and diversify. When you label groups of people and separate them (even with good intentions of "special recognition") you are disenfranchising not only them but others who do not fit into that group:

Bisexuals - You are disenfranchising bisexuals by removing them from the "general JUB" populace. JustusBoys is an adult male community who loves penis. Curious, bisexuals, and gays come here but ultimately we are all men coming together where mainstream society shuns us. But by building walls (aka sexuality subforums) and separating men into forum labels you are undermining the basic principle of what brings us together. In the case of this forum, bisexuals will be dissuaded from participating here for advice and will instead post their concerns in a forum most users aren't going to frequently visit.

Gays - Unfortunately, gays suffer as well. You said one of the biggest problems is the ignorance some gays show to bisexuals. I agree, there are some bizzare stereotypes forced onto bisexuals. However, a lot of newbie gays here don't understand the concept of bisexualism. In fact, many of them need advice in what it is to be gay. Unfairly labeling gays as "incompatible" with bisexuals in the mainstream forum is terrible. For gay JUB users, this will only further the polarization, because as a new gay male surfs through the forums they will see the "mainstream forums" and then the separate "bisexual" one. When one sees that kind of segregation, it obviously has a subconscious affect on the psyche. If anything, gays need more exposure to bisexuals as possible! Only through education, not separation, can you lessen this disparity.


Please change your minds about this before any long-term damage is done. I know you say "give it time" but that's exactly what you said about the now dead International Politics forum and I haven't seen the administration change it back yet.

Look at the bisexual forum already. The main topics are about "gay vs. bi" and "fostering communication" between gays and bis as if it's some kind of "peace making" issue?

 

[Something Else]

Just_Believe18, i've seen many of your replies to threads within the Coming Out forum that have shown wisdom and thoughtfulness behind them. It has been participating members like yourself that has reinforced those to share their personal private thoughts here.

That is something that you have within you--along with many others here; and I'd imagine that will be part of your makeup for some time.

The inclusion of another forum, won't deter those that want to assist those with questions...or simply provide them with perspectives that otherwise would be not known.

In that aspect, there is no restriction in continuing to be the same person you have been in the new BiSexual forum as you have been in this forum.

Your points, that you eluded to, are valid ones about possible scenarios unfolding--as a result of this new change. However, I believe it's never the INVENTION of man that one must be wary of, it's the APPLICATION that man chooses that should be considered heavily.

Ultimately, the prior Bi forum had lead to a constant, caustic, antagonistic environment--though great fodder for those not involved, lol.

Possible intriguing topic discussions were invariably reduced to ad hominem abuse at the end of many of those threads. It was a forum that, imo, showcased a NEED for change, rather than the need to remain the same--especially seeing how it became more and more polarizing.

A great deal of that I believe was because there were too many red herring arguments presented. Too many personal attacks, instead of addressing the issue(s) irrespective of the person sharing the story. That's the one thing about the Coming Out forum that I've always appreciated: It is rooted in principles of addressing the issue. And I believe the caveat of "No Flame Zone" allowed for that.

Idealistically, I'd like to believe that everyone would reply the same way they would in a No Flame Zone as they would in one that is not; but that hasn't been my experience the short time here.

I would even go as far as to say, that in some instances, it is NECESSARY to hear how others feel UNFILTERED. Afterall, as it is within life, life isn't always peaches & cream. However, maintaining that balance seem to have gotten lost within the prior format. Hopefully with this format, perhaps there will be more discussions based on issues, perspectives & thoughts. And if there's a POSSIBILITY of that, then that's a step forward for the better.

 

[dfwjacker]

@ Just_Believe18

Your apparent eagerness to get the bisexual forum removed seems very questionable.

I think us bisexuals here on JUB can manage without your "concern" on this matter. We may be a bit oversexed and drunk on an irrational mix of dick, ass, tits and pussy, but most of us can still navigate a forum.

If you are so worried about segregation on forums, why then are you participating on JUB? A site which caters almost exclusively to young homosexual males. Shouldn't you be participating on a forum that welcomes and caters to everyone? (straight, bi, gay, males & females of all ages). Maybe we should all use your logic and demand that JUB be taken down because it segregates younger gay males too much from everyone else???

 

[rareboy]

There you go Just Believe.....One of the ironic outcomes of the new board is that it effectively quarantines bi-sexuals. It's like any ghetto; the very place that a community creates or is created for their own comfort and protection invariably diminishes and endangers its inhabitants.

Sub-boards have an amazing tendency to become sterile as ditto-heads yell their agreement back and forth at one another.

Take a look at the postings since it was created......yawn. If Andreus hadn't taken a stroll through and gotten barked at for his trespass, there'd hardly even be any posts at all. Most of the threads are tired leftovers scraped up off the floor of the other boards.

 

[tallguy297]

Hey JB_18,

I dunno... I just dunno. Right now I just dont bloody know... I hate the fact that there even needs to be a different section and yet I can respect and understand it too. But the minute it starts becoming us and them to any degree is when I start to wonder if we havent gone wrong.

The last thing we as a community need is to feel prejudiced and judged. We of all people should know the pain and idiotic persecution suffered by those who are different. And sadly theres ignorance even amongst us.

This should never be a battle about whos more right or less wrong... and yet thats what happens. Its should never be about whos masculine and whose not.

JUB has always stood for respect in my eyes. For a chance to feel part of something good, a place to feel safe and a place to express your thoughts and fears without judgment.

It has been about inclusion and acceptance. And not for one minute do I believe that anything would ever be dont to change that...that would just be self defeating.

I must be...I'll admit it...naive. I try and see the good in everyone. Lifes taught me to do that. But its also taught me not to back down from a fight...especially from those who should know better. I'm open to this new forum, I'm willing to see how it travels.

But I'm nervous.

At any cost we have to prevent stereotypes and ignorance ruining this place. And unless we can stop looking at bi guys as having it easier, being too scared to make a choice and all the other stupidity then we are doomed.

Alternatively we need to educate them just like the rest of society that we like they come in all shapes and sizes, with different backgrounds and upbringings. We have to show them that we're a beautiful richly mixed society...right from the fems through to that macho guys.

I'm just not sure that this is the way to do it. Time will tell... and this is one time I'm hoping the mods will rule with an iron fist.

 

[Just_Believe18]

If you are so worried about segregation on forums, why then are you participating on JUB? A site which caters almost exclusively to young homosexual males. Shouldn't you be participating on a forum that welcomes and caters to everyone? (straight, bi, gay, males & females of all ages). Maybe we should all use your logic and demand that JUB be taken down because it segregates younger gay males too much from everyone else???

JUB has never been a community exclusive to "young gay males." I've been a part of this community before it went commercial. The median age of our members is higher than what you would define as twink. If you're making that assumption based on the porn advertising on this site, it is because "young males" have always been the flavor of any gay adult community.

------------
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has mixed feelings about this new forum. If anyone else has anything to say, please do.

 

[quasar]

Further to my post above, I'm going to expand a little more on my thoughts and feelings. Grab a coffee and read on!

Creating the separate Bisexual Discussion Forum goes totally against every bone in my body - believe it or not!

Since political correctness first reared it's head back in the mid 80s, I've been a great supporter of equality, diversity and inclusivity, and although it has sadly lost it's way and is now creating as many problems as it originally solved, I still believe in the principles of it, and when you talk to the vast majority of people, so does everyone else - except when it comes down to sexual orientation and equality.

Anyway, one of the things that has always wrangled me is the strange dichotomy that exists within many minority groups. We work tirelessly and invest hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars in campaigns demanding equality and acceptance, and then when we (deservedly) get what we've asked for, we still want our own 'Community Centres' or 'Drop-In Centres' etc. Why? Why, after all that hard work, do we want to self-segregate ourselves?

Some will say that we have the 'choice' to do that, but surely, if you want to be a part of a community, you have to live, eat, breath and contribute to that community? Self-segregation is no more than self inflicted discrimination.

This then leads to resentment amongst other people because you now have the same rights - and then some, because you've got your own little Commun ity Centre too, where only 'your kind' can go! This is where PC is going wrong because it's now bending over backwards too much to pacify minorities and thus alienating the majority.

And to make matters worse, most of the time it's no longer the minorities that are complaining, it's just the PC do-gooders taking it too far!

But in my mind, self-segregation and positive discrimination will never be the way forward.

I've always believed that education is the way forward - and therein lies the problem. It's a slow process.

We can tell people what is right and wrong according to the law, but we can't tell people what to believe and what to think. They have to learn and see for themselves, but it involves relaxing their guard and being receptive.

As I've said, the creation of the new forum was simply designed to clear Naughty Bits of non-sexual discussion, however, the atmosphere of the board lately between our gay and bisexual members has not been one where many of the threads could have been moved to Hot Topics without absolute chaos! So at this current time, I have to admit a temporary defeat of my ideals and look to what is best for the site and our members as a whole - and at the moment it's better to have two playpens instead of a backyard brawl. Hopefully in the future after people have been chatting over the fence, we may be able to take it down, but both parties really have some learning to do.

As for taking traffic away from this forum, it may do, it may not, it's down to the thread starter. However, I'd have thought that the best help and advice for a bisexual would come from fellow bisexuals who truely understand their situation - or an experienced counsellor - but it shouldn't stop you from jumping across to help.

What I will say is, having spent 20 years putting into practice some of the things that you're learning on paper, they're great ideas and principles, but it doesn't always go according to plan, some things work, some things don't, some things work when they shouldn't, and other's fail when they should succeed, and ocassionally we have to admit a temporary defeat or bask in the glory of an unexpected success. But whatever happens, never lose the passion!

 

[hanshansen]

I'd agree with a lot of the above if it weren't for the fact that a lot of the bi discussion was segregated already - in the non-moderated/porn part of the website. A lot of the guys and gals who post there (and who now post in the Bi discussion section) never posted in the old Coming Out discussion section. For me as a bi guy trying to find his feet and get some answers to serious questions from people in a similar boat, it's an improvement not to have to look for the posts I'm interested in among porn videos and flame wars. I'm certainly more comfortable posting in the new Bi discussion forum than in the unmoderated Bi forum.

As for gay guys who are new to the website, either bi issues will be relevant to them or not. If they are confused about their sexuality, then they will have a reason to have a look in the bi section. Ditto if they have issues with or questions relating to bi guys they know in real life. I'll assert again that they're more likely to feel comfortable posting to the new bi forum than the old bi forum. And if bi topics aren't relevant to their lives, is it that important in a practical sense whether they get to see those subject lines when they go into the Coming Out section? Would they have read those threads anyway? I've only ever read the threads in the Coming Out forum that were of interest to me (that includes some purely gay-themed ones) and I'll continue to do so.

I agree that it's a good principle to expose people to different points of view and to make the pool of likely respondents as big as possible. But on that principle there should never have been a bi section in the first place, moderated or not. As it stands, the new bi section is an improvement. IMHO of course.

 

[Just_Believe18]

If the porn Straight and Bisexual forum was a big problem, why not change the wording between the relationship forum and the porn forum? Perhaps give the old Straight/Bi porn forum a dirtier name? What about changing the name, "Coming OUt & Relationships - Safe" forum to something more inclusive and accessible?

 

[hanshansen]

If the porn Straight and Bisexual forum was a big problem, why not change the wording between the relationship forum and the porn forum? Perhaps give the old Straight/Bi porn forum a dirtier name? What about changing the name, "Coming OUt & Relationships - Safe" forum to something more inclusive and accessible?

You could do that. But what would a more inclusive name be? Also, one really good thing about having a bi section (in my view) is that you actually get women posting there. The very name of the JUB suggests guys only.

You'd probably need some kind of enforcement to stop people moving back to the old bi forum (now with a dirtier name) - e.g. any threads which are appropriate to the new Coming Out forum would get moved there by the moderators.

Desegregation is a difficult thing. If people really want to be among themselves, they will find ways. You'd want to take some kind of a poll to see if the current posters to the Bi forum would be happy to post on the new Coming Out forum if a bi forum no longer existed. What would be really bad is if they stopped posting or moved to another site altogether.

 

[tallguy297]

Quasar21,

I get it. I get every word you said and I understand the struggle and discussion that I'm sure this caused you guys... and I sympathize with you!

But I cant help but wonder... isnt coming out coming out? Is coming out as a bi guy any more or less daunting than a gay guy? Is the strain it puts on families and friends any different? Surely this board is about more than relationships with lovers....I've always taken it to be more about family and friends?

Yeah pc and self inflicted persecution and then the need want to be more than equal have always made me shake my head too. I just want to be accepted for being me...I dont want separate anything. But maybe I'm different.

My fear is that the new thread wont be about coming out so much but more a place to point out differences and to segregate.

And to stand back and look at it through the eyes of an 18 year old who doesn't understand who he is just yet.... the ones we try and help the most... the lost and confused of all ages.... we're now asking them to choose before they post...

This board is a lot of time the first port of call... the place where the newbies seek answers and advice...but mainly acceptance. To make them choose, to make them have to decide which box they fit in first...and worse to then have them realize the divisiveness that can exist among us as a first experience....

I cant see it being good..... please watch it carefully....

 

[quasar]

If the porn Straight and Bisexual forum was a big problem, why not change the wording between the relationship forum and the porn forum? Perhaps give the old Straight/Bi porn forum a dirtier name? What about changing the name, "Coming OUt & Relationships - Safe" forum to something more inclusive and accessible?

Thanks for raising that jb, because that's exactly what we want to do, and I forgot to mention earlier. We are looking at renaming one or both of the Bi forums to reflect what they are about - so any suggestions would be very welcome!

Quasar21,

I get it. I get every word you said and I understand the struggle and discussion that I'm sure this caused you guys... and I sympathize with you!

Thank you, I appreciate your support.

But I cant help but wonder... isnt coming out coming out? Is coming out as a bi guy any more or less daunting than a gay guy? Is the strain it puts on families and friends any different? Surely this board is about more than relationships with lovers....I've always taken it to be more about family and friends?

The process is very much the same with regard to self-acceptance etc, but as a gay man, I can answer all the questions my friends (old and new) and family throw at me, and I can advise other gay men how to answer those questions, but I can't tell a bisexual friend how he should answer questions about his sexuality. "What do you mean you like men AND women, why? How? But if you like women then you're straight. But if you like guys you're gay. You're just confused." I don't have the experience, I haven't had to answer those questions, and I've never had those feelings, and quite frankly I'm glad - at least my acceptance was clear cut... I like guys and not girls!

My fear is that the new thread wont be about coming out so much but more a place to point out differences and to segregate.

The new forum was never about 'Coming Out' and has never been advertised as that. It's a place where bisexuals can discuss issues without bigotted flaming from ignorant gay members. If you take a look at it there are few threads about coming out and relationships per se.

And to stand back and look at it through the eyes of an 18 year old who doesn't understand who he is just yet.... the ones we try and help the most... the lost and confused of all ages.... we're now asking them to choose before they post...

This board is a lot of time the first port of call... the place where the newbies seek answers and advice...but mainly acceptance. To make them choose, to make them have to decide which box they fit in first...

I must admit that I'd not thought of it like that, but I can see your point 100%. Perhaps a solution is to rename 'Coming Out & Relationships' to 'Gay & Bisexual Coming Out & Relationships', and to rename the new forum 'Gay & Bisexual Discussion' - after all, there are times when a potentionally sensible discussion in Hot Topics gets ruined by flaming and hijacking. I think I'll take this to Mod Towers!

...and worse to then have them realize the divisiveness that can exist among us as a first experience....

But it would also be wrong to pretend it doesn't exist...

I cant see it being good..... please watch it carefully....

Trust me, it will be!

 

[3nipples]

We haven't been very supportive of bisexual issues in this forum by and large and have probably discouraged many from posting their concerns.

I don't know if a separate forum is going to work, but I'm pretty sure that changing the name of this one isn't going to help and neither will doing nothing.