Boeing 737 Max 8 Not Safe ...

[cityboy-stl]

The software theory is mine, not the FAA's. I'm not FAA nor have I been trained in airplane risk abatement or even FMEA construction.

But I am familiar with how minor software timing can have unintended consequences on very complex routines, as are you. That is why I am opining.

Oh come on. Don't act like the "software theory" is original with you. It's been mentioned on just about every news story and the FAA knows about it, or they're deaf, blind, and stupid. Have you ever had to locate in code and fix a freak circumstance bug? I bet not. The software could have been fed bad data. The software could have misinterpreted good data. It could be something completely unrelated. The point is we don't know and two planes have crashed. You think it's worth risking more lives on an unknown problem. I don't and neither does most of the rest of the world. Let's leave it at that.

 

[rareboy]

Canada has now grounded all the 737 Max planes, btw.

 

[offthewall14420]

Do you have some reference for that, or is this merely a racist post?

I have been following the story, yet I haven't seen any list of passengers that identified them by race, or even photos.

If the Americans were not Caucasian, Americans hardly seem to be turning a blind eye to the questions circling the model of this plane, so your comment is illogical.

Maybe you just hate Boeing? Or whites?

For the record, Boeing is ranked among the top companies for its diversity and inclusion: https://www.boeing.com/features/2018/05/diversity-inclusion-05-18.page

It's hardly a good ole boys' club.

If the planes went down in the US and Europe they would have strung up the Boeing CEO. Instead the crashes were in Africa and SE Asia so obviously it's a lifestyle issue. These Boeing fuckers extracted $8.7 billion from WA state taxpayers, engage in lazy buybacks, they capped vendor margins (PFS2), run the DoD, and are in bed with every dictator in the world. Fuck Boeing and Fuck the 50 shades of white in their c-suite.

I am a self-hating WASP. Lot's to hate.

 

[Cormac135]

It's all just a throw of the dice really.

 

[Telstra]

Now,
the USA grounded all Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 planes.
But why not let the Transport authority announce it instead of that guy ?

 

[unloadonme]

And now Boeing has suspended the entire fleet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47562727

 

[KaraBulut]

And now Boeing has suspended the entire fleet.

After their stock dropped nearly $50 per share.

 

[NotHardUp1]

If the planes went down in the US and Europe they would have strung up the Boeing CEO. Instead the crashes were in Africa and SE Asia so obviously it's a lifestyle issue. These Boeing fuckers extracted $8.7 billion from WA state taxpayers, engage in lazy buybacks, they capped vendor margins (PFS2), run the DoD, and are in bed with every dictator in the world. Fuck Boeing and Fuck the 50 shades of white in their c-suite.

I am a self-hating WASP. Lot's to hate.

Thanks so much for clarifying. Great to hear you're out and proud on Boeing.

And kudos on the self-hate. That should save others the trouble.

Oh, and now that they've grounded the fleet, that sure blows the Ethiopian passenger lives don't matter theory.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Whatever the flaw, whether it was operational error or design and systems error, it is heartbreaking any time to hear of a large vessel crashing.

It's a bit cold comfort to know that those deaths are still way under automobile fatality rates.

Whatever it is, we are still fortunate to live in an era in which airliner crashes have become as rare as they have.

 

[smokeshadow]

Now,
the USA grounded all Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 planes.
But why not let the Transport authority announce it instead of that guy ?

Telstra - because Boeing poured millions into the Donald's presidential campaign and he felt beholden to them to keep them flying until pressure from others forced his hand

 

[NotHardUp1]

Telstra - because Boeing poured millions into the Donald's presidential campaign and he felt beholden to them to keep them flying until pressure from others forced his hand

Not accurate. The Boeing employees gave significantly more to the Clinton campaign, and the company itself.

Show data supporting that Boeing backed Trump, else you tell a fiction.

Boeing, like several of the major corporations, gives to both sides often, as their interest is in having influence no matter who is elected. They spend much more on Congress than the president anyway.

 

[Telstra]

^ what is the purpose for planes manufacturer to give money to political parties ?
What are the benefits they get from the political parties ???

 

[NotHardUp1]

The purpose of all individuals and corporations in giving money to political parties and candidate (via PACs) is to influence policy.

It can be indirect because they elect candidate who promise "pro-business" attitudes about regulation or taxation, or it can be more direct by ensuring access and ready listening from executive branch officials and legislators.

It can even be as direct as industries drafting legislative reforms they want to be adopted and handing it the elected official to introduce as a bill or as a policy in an agency.

We have some of the "best" government that money can buy.

That said, Boeing hasn't been a terrible actor. Safety and quality have been the hallmark of their planes. They do have diversity as a high priority and do employ people of every stripe and pay well. They provide a great many jobs. To be sure, all the big companies are wringing concessions out of governments in tax breaks and it's not right, but states and cities and counties are willing to whore themselves out to get the jobs in their location, so it has become the medium of exchange.

Both Democrats and Republicans have been all too willing to accommodate Wall St., real estate, agribusiness, big oil, defense, and manufacturing. While everyone is watching the Punch and Judy Show, business as usual is going on in the halls of government and the big moneyed interests are getting their way.

Remember when Hillary Clinton was exposed for the speech she made to industry? https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/10/hillary-clinton-leaked-wall-street-speeches It was yet another major blow to the Democratic ticket. It cannot sell itself any longer as the champion of the working class when it is obvious they are just the other version of the Republicans.

 

[smokeshadow]

You ask for data. . .https://www.thenewcivilrightsmoveme...-major-deadly-crashes-us-among-last-holdouts/

 

[KaraBulut]

Not accurate. The Boeing employees gave significantly more to the Clinton campaign, and the company itself.

Show data supporting that Boeing backed Trump, else you tell a fiction.

Boeing, like several of the major corporations, gives to both sides often, as their interest is in having influence no matter who is elected. They spend much more on Congress than the president anyway.

It's fair to say Boeing gives money to those in Congress who send them DoD business. There's little evidence that they supported Hillary disproportionately over Trump.
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000100

• Senate Leadership Fund $250,000 - is McConnell's PAC to keep Republicans in control of Congress
• Citizens for a Strong America $240,000 - is a Republican PAC based in Wisconsin (home to former Speaker Paul Ryan)
• National Republican Senatorial Cmte $172,693 - self explanatory
• Democratic Congressional Campaign Cmte $129,314 - self explanatory
• National Republican Congressional Cmte $125,417 - self explanatory
• Democratic Senatorial Campaign Cmte $115,350- self explanatory
• Republican National Cmte $84,630 - self explanatory

Totals - Republican donations=~$870K, Democrat donations=~$244K - about a 3 to 1 difference

However, the CEO has been a regular at Mar-A-Lago since Trump became President.

Surprise: Trump Kept 737 Max Jets Flying After Personal Call from Boeing C.E.O. [Vanity Fair]

Boeing’s relationship with Mr. Trump has not always been smooth, however. Shortly after becoming president-elect, Mr. Trump assailed Boeing for the estimated cost of its program to build new Air Force One planes, which provide mobile command centers for the president . . . A couple of weeks later, Mr. Muilenburg visited Mr. Trump at his Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Fla., to try to smooth things over . . . Weeks after the conversation, Boeing donated $1 million to Mr. Trump’s inaugural committee.

 

[rareboy]

It really didn't look good for Boeing to call Trump and ask for the planes not to be grounded.

The grounding was inevitable.

And now Being looks really bad for waiting so long to ground the fleet and the US looks like it led from way behind.

 

[gsdx]

Whatever the flaw, whether it was operational error or design and systems error, it is heartbreaking any time to hear of a large vessel crashing.

It's a bit cold comfort to know that those deaths are still way under automobile fatality rates.

Whatever it is, we are still fortunate to live in an era in which airliner crashes have become as rare as they have.

Indeed. According to FlightAware, there are an average of about 10,000 planes in the air at any one time. Last year, there were over a quarter-billion cars and trucks in the US alone. Even if only 10% of those vehicles are on US roads at any one time, that's over 25 million. I should imagine that percentage is much higher.

When you consider how many people are in the sky at this moment (over 2 million if you average 250 people per plane), the deaths from plane crashes is overshadowed by the number of deaths from traffic accidents, but plane crashes seem to get more attention, probably because traffic incidents usually doesn't kill hundreds of people in an instant.

 

[Latimer]

In important article to read regarding the FAA and its relationship with Boeing, which the author believes has been lax:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ethio...ng-get-away-with-fatal-flaw-before?ref=scroll

 

[offthewall14420]

Boeing has put $20 billion into stock buybacks this year because they don't have anything better to do with the money.

It's just amazing to me because they could use it in product development, really stick it to Airbus.

 

[NotHardUp1]

You ask for data. . .https://www.thenewcivilrightsmoveme...-major-deadly-crashes-us-among-last-holdouts/

Sorry, but you are conflating the president's election campaign with his inaugural fund. The article clearly cites Boeing's contribution to Trump's Inaurgural Fund. What that says is that Boeing did what many corporations do -- accept the regime change and work with the one in power.

And your article is from a civil rights publication? What does the 737 have to do with civil rights. Boeing, as cited accurately in this thread, has very high diversity ratings and policies and employee profile. Additionally, this "article" is comprised of literally five sentences. Five. If that's not some propaganda mill, I'd be shocked. High school kids publish articles with more than five sentences.

I am strongly anti-Trump, but that's just ridiculous.

The article I read yesterday said that the actual Boeing employees, not the PAC, had been overwhelmingly for Hilary. That's easy to believe considering where Boeing has employees.

And, the donations to Congress indeed would influence DoD contracts. All the big defense companies do that. What isn't obvious is that Boeing's commercial business is hugely commercial. When I worked for Boeing in 2010-2011, I seem to remember the defense sales only constituting about 10-16% of their total business. I'm going on memory, but as I worked for the defense division, I remember how small we were and why we didn't get much love from corporate when we had issues with rates, etc.

Finally, the critics of the FAA, in particular in Congress, have complained that the FAA is too cozy with industry. However, even today, I heard an interview on the radio with someone explaining how the FAA's approach as collaborative team member has been so successful, and cited as proof the declining fatalities in the US while air traffic has been increasing. No fatal commercial airline crashes in the US for over 10 years now.

I worked with an FAA engineer in my previous job. His guidance and consultation to our development project was invaluable and helped keep us on the safe track while we worked on the product.

This YouTube video from CBS reports that Boeing is working on an update to the software, so that is not surprising:

It's interesting to hear the FAA Acting Administrator repeating that the model is a safe airplane, because it is certified. The FAA certification process is so rigorous that it is hard to shake their confidence in their processes. That all planes have flaws that are discovered while they are in use is a given. So the fact that two planes are down is just the discovery process in work. I concur that the plane will get fixed and be back in the air relatively soon (months).