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books: e- version or the real deal?

which do you prefer?

  • i prefer a good old fashioned book

    Votes: 33 62.3%
  • i prefer to use an e-book (kindle, nook, etc.)

    Votes: 4 7.5%
  • i like them both

    Votes: 16 30.2%

  • Total voters
    53
However, I will never abandon paper books... after looking at a computer all day at work, and then most of the evening at home, I need to look at something that is not lit from behind.

That's the point of (most) ebook readers - they are NOT back-lit LCDs. I resisted getting one for years until I actually tried one. In less than an hour I forgot I was reading on a "screen". In less than a week I found the Kobo more comfortable to hold and read on than any paper book.

Ironically the low contrast of the original Kobo's e-ink display looks a lot like a page from a paperback!
 
"Real books", "the real deal"... doesn't anybody else cringe at how stupidly naive it sounds? like saying that "real marriage" is between a man and a woman? In both cases people have got so used to considering the surface and the appearance that they forgot what "the real deal" was actually about... :roll:

It's biased language, obviously meant to show the writer's opinion. To me a "real book" is the content... the delivery method is just a medium.

Which is the "real" movie - the one you see in the theatre, or the one you see at home on DVD? Given some home theatre setups, both image and sound may well be better at home! Is the movie the film projected onto a screen?
 
You are taking soooooo many things for granted when talking about the future...

Such as?

the info of paper books is immediate,

A paper book is anything but immediate. First, it has to be physically present. Secondly the info must be found in it, whether that is simply finding "page 98" or searching through archaic things such as a table of contents.

If I bothered, I could use cloud storage for my ebooks and have them accessible to me anywhere, anytime, including from my smart phone. That's overkill for me for books, but my music, tv, and movie collections are accessible to me from anywhere with an internet connection i.e. anywhere I ever go. I don't actually use cloud storage for the video, though considering it for the music.

, so a F451 book is always safer as far as preservation is concerned, but for working and storing info, as I said, and there I totally agree, we needed this new technology.

Always safer? Hell no. Ask any librarian - books get damaged by insects, water, smoke, or just age. Few books are bound using archival glues, and most books printed in the 1980s are dying due to acidic paper. Preserving a paper book requires controlled environments and the use of archival materials throughout.

Digital storage media is now so cheap that storage costs are trivial, and anyone with basic computer literacy can setup a backup system. You do have some upkeep - renewing old media, and perhaps converting to newer file formats. That work is much less than what is required to maintain paper books, however. Unlike music and video, text formats are simple and any hacker could figure out who to open the files even without the specs.

Its true that digital files are not human readable (some archive work is still done with film for this reason) - but short of a global disaster this is not likely to be an issue for any of us. And how many people really need to plan for their personal collection of books to live on in perpetuity, well after or species does the next "really stupid thing"?
 
It's biased language, obviously meant to show the writer's opinion. To me a "real book" is the content... the delivery method is just a medium.

Which is the "real" movie - the one you see in the theatre, or the one you see at home on DVD? Given some home theatre setups, both image and sound may well be better at home! Is the movie the film projected onto a screen?
The answer about books is clear if you read me above... about the films, it's like with paintings: original work and copies are different things.
 
The answer about books is clear if you read me above... about the films, it's like with paintings: original work and copies are different things.

There is no such thing as an "original work" for a movie. Every print will be slightly different, and every theatre will vary in equipment - I doubt very much the movie's director would look at the screen at my local multiplex and feel the colour, contrast, brightness, and sharpness of the image was what he intended. Modern movies are shot considering both disk and theatrical releases, so which one is "original" becomes very questionable... and never mind situations like The Lord Of The Rings which saw movies shot with the knowledge that two different DVD releases would be issued!

But this is all getting pretty far from the discussion on books, where I would argue that presentation is the least important part of what makes any given book unique.
 

Such as the continuity of the tech and devices that allow you to use ebooks.
A paper book is anything but immediate. First, it has to be physically present. Secondly the info must be found in it, whether that is simply finding "page 98" or searching through archaic things such as a table of contents.

If I bothered, I could use cloud storage for my ebooks and have them accessible to me anywhere, anytime, including from my smart phone. That's overkill for me for books, but my music, tv, and movie collections are accessible to me from anywhere with an internet connection i.e. anywhere I ever go. I don't actually use cloud storage for the video, though considering it for the music.

A-ha! Finally someone fell into the trap! It is not "the book" (we are always talking about the content, the written message) but "the access" to the book. We need the physical presence, and our ability to decode with all sorts of books, as well as all the metaphysical processes you may like to recall, but what makes them different is how we have access and engage in that process with one and with the other... it's so very simple... without electrical power and the tech shit there is no access to the ebook.

I have a magnificent cell that I can't use because I can't find the proper replacement charger to fill up its battery. A book, a book making sense, in paper or in electronic form is not to be preserved under a big hole in lost mountains, it is not a thing, an isolated object containing "in itself"... it is part of a continuum, and we could preserve in paper the whole corpus of books of the Western civilization and it would be a lost cause, as dumb as this http://www.competitions.org/index.p...iversal-warning-sign-yucca-mountain&Itemid=63 because to fix the sense of something you must rely on something else, so a book or a sign, not any natural object is evident and informative in and by itself.

And that being complicated enough you still say it's better to make it all depend also of more external, mediating devices..?



Always safer? Hell no. Ask any librarian - books get damaged by insects, water, smoke, or just age. Few books are bound using archival glues, and most books printed in the 1980s are dying due to acidic paper. Preserving a paper book requires controlled environments and the use of archival materials throughout.

Digital storage media is now so cheap that storage costs are trivial, and anyone with basic computer literacy can setup a backup system. You do have some upkeep - renewing old media, and perhaps converting to newer file formats. That work is much less than what is required to maintain paper books, however. Unlike music and video, text formats are simple and any hacker could figure out who to open the files even without the specs.
You keep faaaaaaaalling... I said safe, not adamant. Paper is as fragile as you want, but the INFO, given what I said, is safer preserved if only for sheer ease of access to it. You keep mistaking preserving the support for using the support as a better means, overall or at least under certain conditions, over electronic means. Water, fire, dirt, bugs kill the supports, but the info must be preserved and not just stored waiting for mass destruction to wipe it.

Your reference to acidic paper would make sense if that were the only sort of paper available, but there you are mentioning a particular case of bad technology to misrepresent and dismiss the bigger picture of the whole technological possibilities to produce paper.


Its true that digital files are not human readable (some archive work is still done with film for this reason) - but short of a global disaster this is not likely to be an issue for any of us. And how many people really need to plan for their personal collection of books to live on in perpetuity, well after or species does the next "really stupid thing"?
Well, that precisely was point... your entire post was based on the happy dismissal of the central idea of mine :roll:
 
Its true that digital files are not human readable (some archive work is still done with film for this reason) - but short of a global disaster this is not likely to be an issue for any of us. And how many people really need to plan for their personal collection of books to live on in perpetuity, well after or species does the next "really stupid thing"?

You keep mistaking the particular storage, the usage, private or public, with the general idea of the transmitting of the original source of all those particular usages of the info, and making available the information with the best means possible. I'm not even talking about preserving knowledge, as if sacred and worth being preserved in itself, and I am not forgetting that ultimately it's the teaching of the ability to use that information what preserves it.
What I'm saying is that we rely on a huge amount of data, again not the particular mundane addresses or reports, but the more fundamental data that allows us to generate and handle more mundane or more significative data, and that we must make it available in the logically simpler way possible. Aside from all the contingencies that we can not ultimately control, we can at least focus and assure the logical foundations that can make the rest possible.
As often happens, the trees of daily habits, even mental habits, won't let you see the forest.

It's not about how many copies or what copies will remain, but about trying t make sure that there will remain any copies at all.

I'm not talking survivalism here, you only need a little unexpected quirk in the usual course of events for something to disappear. I'm not proposing anything that is not more reasonable than insurances, retirement funds, market futures or anything dealing with the undesirable contingencies of the future and, of course, I'm not implying that some Complete Works of X or some painting are worth being saved before any common human life.
I simply say, if the preservation of THE SOURCE of certain info, being assured the process of a satisfactory codification with the the required knowledge of its signs and all the rest, is better assured by something relying on a mere presence or by something whose presence relies in its turn on another presence (say a battery) to reveal the info we want to preserve.
 
The paper copy is simple, easy, and safe. I know some people insist the ecopy is safer because you can make a back up copy, copy it to all these different places, make it accessible to your cell phone...

But all that seems like too much bother. Books are meant to be simple things. Easy storage. Easy access.

So many posters have already stated the exact way I feel. The satisfaction of getting to the last page (for me I get excited at the first page of the final chapter. The sense of accomplishment when you are finished the book and can physically see how much you have read.

I also have a passion for reading antique books. Books that are not available on Kindle or digital means. Even if they were, they would lose the antique quality on a modern piece of equipment.
 
eBook all the way. I have a Sony eReader, so my choices are substantial and I can borrow eBooks from my local library online, and I can lend books I’ve bought to friends (just like real books). The ownership of the titles I buy stays with me.

Additionally, I don’t really have any more room on my shelves for new novels! Being able to store a few hundred in one SD card is great.
 
STUPID 20 MINUTE RULE!! This is the edit of post above, which you can ignore...
Its true that digital files are not human readable (some archive work is still done with film for this reason) - but short of a global disaster this is not likely to be an issue for any of us. And how many people really need to plan for their personal collection of books to live on in perpetuity, well after or species does the next "really stupid thing"?

You keep mistaking the particular storage, the usage, private or public, with the general idea of the transmitting of the original source of all those particular usages of the info, and making available the information with the best means possible. I'm not even talking about preserving knowledge, as if sacred and worth being preserved in itself, and I am not forgetting that ultimately it's the teaching of the ability to use that information what preserves it.
What I'm saying is that we rely on a huge amount of data, again not the particular mundane addresses or reports, but the more fundamental data that allows us to generate and handle more mundane or more significative data, and that we must make it available in the logically simpler way possible. Aside from all the contingencies that we can not ultimately control, we can at least focus and assure the logical foundations that can make the rest possible.
As often happens, the trees of daily habits, even mental habits, won't let you see the forest.

It's not about how many copies or what copies will remain, but about trying t make sure that there will remain any copies at all.

I'm not talking survivalism here, you only need a little unexpected quirk in the usual course of events for something to disappear. I'm not proposing anything that is not more reasonable than insurances, retirement funds, market futures or anything dealing with the undesirable contingencies of the future and, of course, I'm not implying that some Complete Works of X or some painting are worth being saved before any common human life.
I simply say, if the preservation of THE SOURCE of certain info, being assured the process of a satisfactory codification with the the required knowledge of its signs and all the rest, is better assured by something relying on a mere presence or by something whose presence relies in its turn on another presence (say a battery) to reveal the info we want to preserve.
Besides I am talking about free general information, not about every single piece of thought or writing, or the classification of info as secret or public... in fact, the fundamental problem with Wikileaks is the misclassification of info that in democracy is the responsibility of citizens to be aware of, not in the name of morals, but in the name of an efficiency that gets hampered as governments get more and more used to acting in a slapdash or irresponsible way and then just hide under really sensitive information directly relevant to national security.
.
And you still make it even more complicated by making biased estimations of pros and cons, no matter if you are deliberately fallacious or just unaware: when you talk about back-ups you are ultimately talking, not actually about the basic preservation of info, but about a necessary duplication an therefore burdening of the info needed for work on a daily basis... effective digital handling of info relies on previous work which may have been facilitated by digital technology or not, and what you are referring to is nothing but a very old-fashioned way of dealing with data implemented in a very flashy way: a digital version of the scriptorium monk.

So we have been considering the importance of the capacity to transmit and that of creating new info, but our original consideration was about the best way to preserve the original "raw material" that we need to keep, so as not to waste our time recreating and recovering it again. If I had to choose between making it ultimately depend on the turn of a friendly page or the power of a small secondary but functionally essential device, my choice is clear.
 
^"Small" should read "informationally", and "secondary" reads better as "irrelevant".
 
STUPID 20 MINUTE RULE!! This is the edit of post above, which you can ignore...

Yup, ran into that problem myself a few times!

You keep mistaking the particular storage, the usage, private or public, with the general idea of the transmitting of the original source of all those particular usages of the info, and making available the information with the best means possible. I'm not even talking about preserving knowledge, as if sacred and worth being preserved in itself, and I am not forgetting that ultimately it's the teaching of the ability to use that information what preserves it.

I'm not mistaking anything, but I think you are having (and interested in having) a far different conversation than I am. A significant part of my work used to be archival storage (of photos, not books). I have old negatives in a film format that I can no longer get printed anywhere!

As an individual all I care about, and all I need to care about, is that my book collection lasts as long as I want the books (at most until my death) and factors such as cost, convenience, and enjoyment. Those are the ONLY types of factors of interest to an individual.

I did a lot of research before buying an e-reader to ensure that it met the above considerations. For obvious reasons I did not want to be tied down to a single file format or reader. PDF and epub support was required, as both are readily readable now and are likely to be in the future. I can also protect myself further by stripping the DRM if I wish to. The Kobo allows me to store epub files on my computer, so they get backed up automatically and with no action from me, like all my other data. I don't think there is any credible reason to believe these files will become useless to me in the near future, and if I ever become worried about it converting them to other formats is trivial.

I can't remember the last time I was away from a power outlet for more than a few hours, so the 7-12 days of power on my Kobo will do me (I don't go camping etc). Like most newer devices, it is charged through USB so charging is trivial, no special charger needed. If the device does die, I lose nothing since I still have all the files. It is, in any reasonable opinion, so unlikely that all computers and power sources will vanish in my lifetime than I don't consider that a factor. So, to me as an individual, an ebook in PDF or epub format is at least as likely to last my lifetime as a paper book - much more likely, actually.

To be clear - the e-reader delivers the content, but it completely irrelevant to the actual books being accessible. If my Kobo dies, my books don't!

The only remaining considerations are purely personal ones. Do you need mobility? Do you need to feed your ego by showing off your book collection? Do you have space to store paper books? Does any e-reader currently on the market have the right "feel" for you?

Amazon is expected to announce that ebooks sales exceeded paper book sales in 2010 - this despite Amazon holding on to their own format on the Kindle, when everyone else has moved to epub. E-readers are still maturing as a technology, but improving quickly. Most public libraries now support epubs, usually through Overdrive. Really, the only reason ebook adoption is not going faster is reluctance from some authors and publishers, all other considerations have been dealt with.
 
The paper copy is simple, easy, and safe. I know some people insist the ecopy is safer because you can make a back up copy, copy it to all these different places, make it accessible to your cell phone...

But all that seems like too much bother. Books are meant to be simple things. Easy storage. Easy access.

You can get a lot of cloud storage for free, and a terabyte external HD runs around $100 now. Backup software is available free as well, and you do backup your computer, right? So I don't get that argument at all.

As for easy, that's a subjective thing. I find my Kobo far easier to use and transport than paper books.
 
Yup, ran into that problem myself a few times!



I'm not mistaking anything, but I think you are having (and interested in having) a far different conversation than I am. A significant part of my work used to be archival storage (of photos, not books). I have old negatives in a film format that I can no longer get printed anywhere!

As an individual all I care about, and all I need to care about, is that my book collection lasts as long as I want the books (at most until my death) and factors such as cost, convenience, and enjoyment. Those are the ONLY types of factors of interest to an individual.

I did a lot of research before buying an e-reader to ensure that it met the above considerations. For obvious reasons I did not want to be tied down to a single file format or reader. PDF and epub support was required, as both are readily readable now and are likely to be in the future. I can also protect myself further by stripping the DRM if I wish to. The Kobo allows me to store epub files on my computer, so they get backed up automatically and with no action from me, like all my other data. I don't think there is any credible reason to believe these files will become useless to me in the near future, and if I ever become worried about it converting them to other formats is trivial.

I can't remember the last time I was away from a power outlet for more than a few hours, so the 7-12 days of power on my Kobo will do me (I don't go camping etc). Like most newer devices, it is charged through USB so charging is trivial, no special charger needed. If the device does die, I lose nothing since I still have all the files. It is, in any reasonable opinion, so unlikely that all computers and power sources will vanish in my lifetime than I don't consider that a factor. So, to me as an individual, an ebook in PDF or epub format is at least as likely to last my lifetime as a paper book - much more likely, actually.

To be clear - the e-reader delivers the content, but it completely irrelevant to the actual books being accessible. If my Kobo dies, my books don't!

The only remaining considerations are purely personal ones. Do you need mobility? Do you need to feed your ego by showing off your book collection? Do you have space to store paper books? Does any e-reader currently on the market have the right "feel" for you?

Amazon is expected to announce that ebooks sales exceeded paper book sales in 2010 - this despite Amazon holding on to their own format on the Kindle, when everyone else has moved to epub. E-readers are still maturing as a technology, but improving quickly. Most public libraries now support epubs, usually through Overdrive. Really, the only reason ebook adoption is not going faster is reluctance from some authors and publishers, all other considerations have been dealt with.

We are definitely considering the question following different interests: you seem more concerned about everything ensuring the continuity of daily work, and your reference to old film negatives and modern technology is not presenting two different scenarios actually, but merely a discontinuity inside one same way of dealing with information and its handling preservation.

The problem of not being able to handle film negatives is clear from their very name: we are not dealing with photographs, with images, not in the complete final way we are interested: film negatives are a way of dealing with the caption and transmission of visual information, and that way determines the very nature of the final product we want to reach, so that a change like the substitution for digital technology entails a loss of information, and there you give just another example of what I had mentioned: if the handling and preservation of that information relies so fundamentally in an apparently secondary technical device, in short, if the information is too closely identified with the support, and that support depends on a gadget contingency, you are endangering the survival of that information. That's the problem of visual languages and their products, while in natural languages, or mathematical or even musical notations we use a primarily an abstraction of contingent data, not a collection of contingent data like film negatives can be.
My point is, have you considered that the technology you are using today, so useful, may one day put you in the same situation of the old one, because both of them were basically different variation a the same way of dealing with data?

Again, this is not about what what way of dealing with information is more important to whom, or what truly IS and should be considered the most important way, nor is this about the advantages of newer technology, quite obvious, again and again, in storage and browsing. Heck, I am not even saying that ebooks make no sense to me. In fact, whenever this discussion is brought up "in the real world" I usually point out something that I already said in my earlier posts: that it makes no sense identifying "real books" with paper support because the actual book is not a bundle or paper or a circuit board... that e-books are more convenient for storage and handling, but that the traditional support, for all its being as fragile or even more (which, however, I personally doubt) than the newer one, is more self-reliant out of sheer simplicity, and a "safer" option when considering the mere survival of information.

Those considerations bring about some other important ones, namely, what in particular and what amount of information, even at an individual scale, is worth preserving or can be preserved at all. Digitalization allows the storage of huge amounts of data that could end up fossilized and impossible to get access to, just like your old negatives. We already had that problem even with only printed works, hell! the problem was the same even when there were just manuscripts: so the questions remain basically the same, even if the daily appearances may make some think that the situation is totally different.

I was only considering this whole thing inside a wider, more general scenario, and trying to make you consider that what you take today for granted may be an important problem for you tomorrow.
 
I'm going to interrupt this mega-conversation to point out that I've read some great books that are only available as ebooks; "print" versions do not exist.
While some go to work with books whose ebooks do not exist and, worse, may never exist, at least not accessible in the more business-driven delivery channels.

ebook do not actually introduce new elements as much as reinforce certain forces and tendencies already present. For example, the fact that literature (and of course I do not mean novels and that shit, but research literature and everything published) in a certain language or coming from certain institutions automatically gains a presence without having evaluated its worth or interest, much less having contrasted it with work done elsewhere.
I hope nobody would think I'm proposing some kind of objective scale for evaluating documents, neither am I proposing paying attention, for the sake of ecumenical variety, to what is written outside the influence of English-speaking countries and institutions: I am only pointing out that technology may have refined the more or less mechanical handling of information, but there is still a total lack of sense of how to put together all the data and "knowledge" that we have, and what we want to do with it in the future.

There is a vague idea which is so general that is actually blind and senseless: what sense is there in having access to any sort of information when you do not know how to actually deal with that information beyond vague moral claims? Direct access to data does not automatically reveal to you the real sense and reach of what you have in front of you, and I'm afraid the people and their governments are nurturing monsters in each other.
 
I'm not sure I like the idea of my reading being tailored to me. Isn't reading supposed to challenge you? If you read endings, poems, stories etc that are selected for you based on preferences or some other personal factor... then everything is somewhat easy. Nothing that may upset you or make you think differently? Nothing that may cause you to grow or change? I'm not sure thats a plus for ebooks...
 
I always read books that are out of my element... I thought everyone tried challenging themselves?
 
I was only considering this whole thing inside a wider, more general scenario, and trying to make you consider that what you take today for granted may be an important problem for you tomorrow.

I have have discussed, repeatedly, that I have zero doubt the info I have in these formats will, with minimal care, be available for me tomorrow and that I am not taking anything "for granted". We are clearly speaking different languages, so I will stop here.
 
I'm not sure I like the idea of my reading being tailored to me. Isn't reading supposed to challenge you? If you read endings, poems, stories etc that are selected for you based on preferences or some other personal factor... then everything is somewhat easy. Nothing that may upset you or make you think differently? Nothing that may cause you to grow or change? I'm not sure thats a plus for ebooks...

I agree with you.

Using a very different definition of "tailored to me", though, I love that I can change font face and size with ebooks. I'm an oddball in that I find sans-serifs significantly easier to read; and there have been days when I was sick or very tired and I appreciated being able to take the font size up a bit. Realistically, in a few more years I may appreciate taking the font size up a lot more. :mad:
 
Changing font I'm good with. Totally. I don't like the idea of endings or themes being selected for me based on what I've read before.
 
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